primers ?

billycurl · August 17, 2014, 02:18 PM

when reloading with large rifle primers what noticeable difference if any would you notice between different brands? Using cci now but may have to use another brand what ever I can get a hold of.

Marco Califo · August 17, 2014, 02:57 PM

No noticable differences between brands of the same type of primers. Small Rifle = SR = CCI SR = WWSR = Fed SR.
CCI are good. They also make #41 for 223/5.56 and #34 308/7.62. Those two are Military specification and considered to be magnum primers and you may notice a difference between #41 and 400. The difference I noticed was that 400's are thinner and can pirce with hot loads. The #41 are thicker, but are considered to be magnum so that difference is expected.
I just bought some Russian Tula primers for 5.56, because they are cheaper, and I have never read a bad thing about Russian primers. Russian may also be branded as Wolf, but I understand the primers are all made in the same factory regardless of brand.
With shortages and pricing, buy what you can find in the size you need.

hartcreek · August 17, 2014, 03:45 PM

You have to first look at what powder you are going to be using for reloading for what cartridge. H 414 for example requires Magnum primers once the powder weight gets heavy enough. I use H414 for 25-35 and .32 Winchester with Large rifle Primers but for .308 and 30-06 H414 requires Magnum Large Rifle Primers.

chris in va · August 17, 2014, 04:51 PM

I find Federal and Winchester to be more firing pin sensitive than CCI. If I have a gun that doesn't have much 'oomph' behind the pin I use those instead, such as with my CZ 527.

Terrible luck with Tula/Wolf. Multiple duds despite repeated strikes.

jmr40 · August 17, 2014, 04:56 PM

You may see some differences, may not. A lot depends on the individual gun and load. If I had a load worked up with CCI primers and changed to Winchester I'd expect small velocity changes and probably point if impact changes as well. Accuracy may or may not change enough to matter. You just have to shoot and see what happens.

William T. Watts · August 18, 2014, 09:03 AM

As has been pointed out by Chris in Va if you have a firearm that doesn't have a robust firing pin hit Federal or Winchester with Federal being the softer cup of the two would be the primer to use. If you have been using CCI primers they are a full .001 larger and switch to Winchester primers you will notice a difference especially if you hand prime cases that you had loaded before, the .001" smaller primer will seat easier in the slightly larger primer pocket. One other difference the Military spec primers were designed with the thicker primer cup to prevent slam fires from the firing pin hitting the primer when the bolt stops its forward movement (firing pin is still moving forward when the bolt stops) at closure. I have a Garand and wouldn't shoot the rifle for several years because I couldn't find CCI34 primers. If you have a pistol that has been smithed the pistol may have had several coils removed from the firing pin spring to give a lighter trigger pull, if so then Federal or Winchester primers in that order would be a better choice for your firearm.. William

droptrd · August 18, 2014, 09:12 AM

If you are shooting LONG distance, you may see some variance in your loads.

GeauxTide · August 18, 2014, 07:45 PM

Have used CCI primers for over 40 years in every persuasion but shotgun. Excellent and consistent. When they show pressure, apply the brakes.

Same for Remington Primers. They are softer and show pressure more easily.

Federal Large Pistol are all I use for my 41, 44, and 45 in the last 10 years. Excellent.

WLR primers are the hottest standard primers I've used.

Wrangler5 · August 19, 2014, 01:53 AM

FWIW, I had pressure signs on CCI 400 primers with 223 loads that were well below the max listed in several different sources. (Ticked me off, as I'd made a LONG drive to buy 5K of 'em back when the local store would only sell you 100 primers per visit - IF they had any in stock.) Switched to Remington 7 1/2s, which became more readily available, and have had no pressure signs on primers below the charge levels where you would expect to start seeing them. (All of this is in a Marlin X7 bolt action with a long heavy barrel, if it matters.)

zeke · August 19, 2014, 06:39 AM

There are slight to very noticeable differences between primers. Enough that you shouldn't substitute primers in higher end loads, without working up your load again. However am betting you can adjust the load to make up for the differences, excepting the primer cup hardness.

A chrono is a useful tool.

snuffy · August 19, 2014, 09:56 AM

Quote:

primers ?
when reloading with large rifle primers what noticeable difference if any would you notice between different brands? Using cci now but may have to use another brand what ever I can get a hold of.

Different in what aspect? They're all the same size, all will fit in any large rifle primer pocket.

If by "different" you mean can you just substitute from one company brand to another, then NO is the answer! Each company, (by company I mean winchester, remington, federal, CCI, tula, and many others), has their own mix for the primer pellet that is a very powerful explosive, that makes the primer work. This results in differences in the way it ignites the powder. Technical name is brisance, or in common terms the amount and shape of the flame produced through the primer flash hole.

That means if you substitute a lower brisance primer with one of higher power, you could have dangerous high pressure.

ANY time you change ANY component, you have to re-work the load.

Slamfire · August 19, 2014, 10:32 PM

I ran a test to compare velocities of a series of primers, including Tula 7.62, with my standard 30-06 match load of 168 SMK 47.0 grs IMR 4895.

I have lots of 174 FMJBT's, five gallon buckets of LC match brass, so I used those and all the primers I have rolling around the reloading room. Any load I have developed with 174’s is perfectly safe with 168 match bullets.

I do not recommend the use of Federals in Garands, Federals are the most slamfiring primers around, so I am not publishing any federal primer data in my Garand, because someone may think it might be an endorsement of use.

I used the great old WLR nickel plated primers. These were made prior to 1999. Winchester changed their primers in 1999 to make them "more" sensitive and changed the primer color to brass. These brass Winchester primers have thinner cups than the older version I do not recommend their use in Garands/M1a's. I also do not recommend the use of brass WSR as primer piercing in my AR's ate up a handfull of firing pins at loads that never bothered the great old nickel plated WSR.

Tula 7.62 primers were advertized by Graf as equivalent to CCI #34 primers. CCI #34 primers are advertized as being “mil spec” primers by CCI. Mil Spec primers are the only appropriate primers to use in Garands and M1a’s as they are less sensitive than commercial primers and greatly reduce the risk of an out of battery slamfire.

Tula 7.62 and Wolf primers shot very well and I have been using Tula 7.62 in matches, I have a high confidence in their accuracy ability.

Since primer cake is mixed by hand, primers vary considerably from batch to batch. Primer composition varies, only the military specifies a certain mix, commercial manufacturers are free to change anything or everything, and they don’t have to tell you. So, while my test shows obvious differences between primer makes, the next batch of primers could shuffle the results.

I would not worry too much about the differences between primer brands unless you are shooting maximum loads. Even a change of primer lot with a maximum load could spike pressures. The bottom line for me, is that primers are more unpredictable than we think they are.

30-06 Primer Test

Code:

Colombian Mauser Match
174 FMJBT White Box 1968 NM M72, Headstamp LC67 match, box velocity 2640 fps 
							
14 Nov 2011 T =  68 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2698						
Std Dev =	51						
ES =	117	 					
High =	2771						
Low =	2654	 					
N =	5						
							
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI #34 OAL 3.30  	
							
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2645						
Std Dev =	12						
ES =	42	 					
High =	2671						
Low =	2629	 					
N =	10						
Very good group							
							
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Tula 7.62 lot 1-10 primers OAL 3.30  
							
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2665						
Std Dev =	9						
ES =	28	 					
High =	2677						
Low =	2649	 					
N =	10						
Excellent Group					
							
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Wolf NCLR lot 18-09 OAL 3.30  
							
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2656						
Std Dev =	15						
ES =	36	 					
High =	2677						
Low =	2641	 					
N =	9						
							
							
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Fed 210S OAL 3.30  	
							
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2656						
Std Dev =	13						
ES =	34	 					
High =	2674						
Low =	2640	 					
N =	10						
							
							
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM WLR (Nickle)  OAL 3.30  
							
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2665						
Std Dev =	18						
ES =	60	 					
High =	2696						
Low =	2636	 					
N =	10						
Excellent group							
							
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI200  OAL 3.30  	
							
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2680						
Std Dev =	14						
ES =	56	 					
High =	2712						
Low =	2656	 					
N =	10						
V. Good group

Code:

 M1 Garand  BMR Receiver Douglas Barrel 1:10 twist 			
								
150 gr FMJBT 1966 Ball 						
		 						
14 Nov 2011 T= 74 ° F						
								
Ave Vel =	2545				 			
Std Dev =	20							
ES =	68							
Low =	2513							
High =	2581				 			
N= 	8							
	
	
174 FMJBT White Box 1968 NM M72, Headstamp LC67 match, box velocity 2640 fps 	
								
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2592							
Std Dev =	28							
ES =	103	 						
High =	2647							
Low =	2544	 						
N =	10							
								
								
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI #34 OAL 3.30  		
								
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2632							
Std Dev =	20							
ES =	60	 						
High =	2671							
Low =	2611	 						
N =	10							
								
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Tula 7.62 lot 1-10 primers OAL 3.30  
								
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2582							
Std Dev =	15							
ES =	49	 						
High =	2602							
Low =	2553	 						
N =	10							
	excellent group						
								
								
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Wolf NCLR lot 18-09 OAL 3.30  	
								
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2607							
Std Dev =	17							
ES =	57	 						
High =	2642							
Low =	2585	 						
N =	10							
								
								
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM WLR (Nickle)  OAL 3.30  	
								
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2650							
Std Dev =	19							
ES =	68	 						
High =	2688							
Low =	2620	 						
N =	10							
Very good group							
								
								
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895  Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI200  OAL 3.30  		
								
14 Nov 2011 T =  74 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2599							
Std Dev =	22							
ES =	75	 						
High =	2637							
Low =	2562	 						
N =	10							
Very good group

Bart B. · August 20, 2014, 07:13 AM

Here are actual differences in some primers shown by how much fire they put out. But it doesn't show how consistant they are between them.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...study.html?m=1

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...study.html?m=1

August 17, 2014, 02:18 PM	#1
billycurl Junior Member Join Date: February 8, 2014 Posts: 7	primers ? when reloading with large rifle primers what noticeable difference if any would you notice between different brands? Using cci now but may have to use another brand what ever I can get a hold of.

August 17, 2014, 02:57 PM	#2
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,601	No noticable differences No noticable differences between brands of the same type of primers. Small Rifle = SR = CCI SR = WWSR = Fed SR. CCI are good. They also make #41 for 223/5.56 and #34 308/7.62. Those two are Military specification and considered to be magnum primers and you may notice a difference between #41 and 400. The difference I noticed was that 400's are thinner and can pirce with hot loads. The #41 are thicker, but are considered to be magnum so that difference is expected. I just bought some Russian Tula primers for 5.56, because they are cheaper, and I have never read a bad thing about Russian primers. Russian may also be branded as Wolf, but I understand the primers are all made in the same factory regardless of brand. With shortages and pricing, buy what you can find in the size you need. __________________ ............

August 18, 2014, 09:03 AM	#6
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	As has been pointed out by Chris in Va if you have a firearm that doesn't have a robust firing pin hit Federal or Winchester with Federal being the softer cup of the two would be the primer to use. If you have been using CCI primers they are a full .001 larger and switch to Winchester primers you will notice a difference especially if you hand prime cases that you had loaded before, the .001" smaller primer will seat easier in the slightly larger primer pocket. One other difference the Military spec primers were designed with the thicker primer cup to prevent slam fires from the firing pin hitting the primer when the bolt stops its forward movement (firing pin is still moving forward when the bolt stops) at closure. I have a Garand and wouldn't shoot the rifle for several years because I couldn't find CCI34 primers. If you have a pistol that has been smithed the pistol may have had several coils removed from the firing pin spring to give a lighter trigger pull, if so then Federal or Winchester primers in that order would be a better choice for your firearm.. William Last edited by William T. Watts; August 18, 2014 at 01:46 PM.

August 18, 2014, 07:45 PM	#8
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	My .02 Have used CCI primers for over 40 years in every persuasion but shotgun. Excellent and consistent. When they show pressure, apply the brakes. Same for Remington Primers. They are softer and show pressure more easily. Federal Large Pistol are all I use for my 41, 44, and 45 in the last 10 years. Excellent. WLR primers are the hottest standard primers I've used.

August 17, 2014, 03:45 PM	#3
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	No difference BUT.... You have to first look at what powder you are going to be using for reloading for what cartridge. H 414 for example requires Magnum primers once the powder weight gets heavy enough. I use H414 for 25-35 and .32 Winchester with Large rifle Primers but for .308 and 30-06 H414 requires Magnum Large Rifle Primers.

August 17, 2014, 04:51 PM	#4
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I find Federal and Winchester to be more firing pin sensitive than CCI. If I have a gun that doesn't have much 'oomph' behind the pin I use those instead, such as with my CZ 527. Terrible luck with Tula/Wolf. Multiple duds despite repeated strikes.

August 17, 2014, 04:56 PM	#5
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,810	You may see some differences, may not. A lot depends on the individual gun and load. If I had a load worked up with CCI primers and changed to Winchester I'd expect small velocity changes and probably point if impact changes as well. Accuracy may or may not change enough to matter. You just have to shoot and see what happens.

August 18, 2014, 09:12 AM	#7
droptrd Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 342	If you are shooting LONG distance, you may see some variance in your loads.

August 19, 2014, 01:53 AM	#9
Wrangler5 Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 326	FWIW, I had pressure signs on CCI 400 primers with 223 loads that were well below the max listed in several different sources. (Ticked me off, as I'd made a LONG drive to buy 5K of 'em back when the local store would only sell you 100 primers per visit - IF they had any in stock.) Switched to Remington 7 1/2s, which became more readily available, and have had no pressure signs on primers below the charge levels where you would expect to start seeing them. (All of this is in a Marlin X7 bolt action with a long heavy barrel, if it matters.)

August 19, 2014, 06:39 AM	#10
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	There are slight to very noticeable differences between primers. Enough that you shouldn't substitute primers in higher end loads, without working up your load again. However am betting you can adjust the load to make up for the differences, excepting the primer cup hardness. A chrono is a useful tool.

August 20, 2014, 07:13 AM	#13
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Here are actual differences in some primers shown by how much fire they put out. But it doesn't show how consistant they are between them. http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...study.html?m=1 http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...study.html?m=1