Case Volume - Page 2

F. Guffey · August 22, 2014, 10:16 AM

Unique only to me. the 308 W is a short case from the shoulder to the case head, the powder column is shorter than the 30/06 powder column but the 308 W has a powder column that is larger in diameter than the 30/06 powder column.

Back before reloaders acquired all the knowledge there is to know about cases and volume they claimed when using a military case reduce the powder charge 'A' Percent. Deductive reasoning lead reloaders to believe the military case was thicker because it was heavier, I didn't, I measured the case head thickness of the military case head. For the most common 30/06 military case the case head thickness was .200" from the top of the cup above the web to the case head.

I applied the deductive reasoning and found the .200" case head thickness meant the case body was thicker and therefore heavier than the R-P 30/06 case.

Difference"? The powder column, the military case had a long powder column that was smaller than in diameter then the R-P 30/06 case. The R-P 30/06 cases had a short powder column because of the .260" case head thickness but a thinner case body.

The R-P case had a shorter powder column with a larger diameter.

F. Guffey

steve4102 · August 22, 2014, 10:18 AM

Quote:

You don't even want to know what QuickLoad thinks 13.9gr lil'gun makes for pressure.

Over 84K psi, maybe?

Longshot4 · August 22, 2014, 01:11 PM

Now this is getting interesting. Quickie Load is not a friend of mine. I THINK that calculation system was made by some one that thought they know it all or a teeny bopper. Don't believe every thing you read but read it with a grain of salt. Do all of you understand the math calculations that (QL) uses to figure. Dose it take the magic of chemistry. I for one am not that sharp and actually who is and who is to say so. I am from Michigan show me.
LilGun to my knowledge is a relatively new powder. My (Sierra 5th Edition) Starting load for Lil'Gun IS 7.1 Gr. Call that early research. When I started loading with that powder I found one of about 8> of my manuals that I owned to have any information on it. Yea I am getting to be a Old Dog. Ha Ha For those that are not using Lil'Gun. It is requiring you to open your eyes. I like it for my Hornet. I have never ever used a better powder. It is EASY. Even a teeny bopper could use. Well lets not go too far. Ha
I haven't tried measuring my volumes yet. I am considering using Lil'Gun to weigh and sort. Ya see Hornet cases aren't floating around much. The shelves are mostly empty of loading equipment around here. Keep loading and keep learning.

Sevens · August 22, 2014, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Once again its time for a simple answer to a simple problem when others make it complicated more to massage there ego's then to be help full

Brother, did someone pee in your Cheerios?
How did you get that chip on your shoulder?

The quoted text is bad enough to sit all on it's own, but the advice you offer immediately following it in 2 out of your 3 bullet points are pure dreck. <vomit>

Check yourself.

Brian Pfleuger · August 22, 2014, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longshot4

Quickie Load is not a friend of mine. I THINK that calculation system was made by some one that thought they know it all or a teeny bopper.

You think wrong.

The man who invented QuickLoad (Helmut Brömel) is a renowned internal ballistics expert with decades of experience.

You can read some of his posts in this thread over at 24hr Campfire and contact him directly if you'd like.

The man has more experience than most 100 reloaders combined and certainly FAR more access to laboratory methods and tools than any of us.

steve4102 · August 22, 2014, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longshot4

My (Sierra 5th Edition) Starting load for Lil'Gun IS 7.1 Gr. Call that early research. When I started loading with that powder I found one of about 8> of my manuals that I owned to have any information on it.

I find it interesting that you would justify your "Starting" load of 8.9gr by quoting from the Sierra manual when Sierra #5 list 8.9gr as the Max load for the Hornet. BTW, they do not list Lil'Gun in their 22K Hornet.

Just so you know, Sierra does not test their loads in pressure barrels like Hodgdon and other powder/bullet manufacturers do. They shoot their loads in regular rifles and read the brass case just like you and I do. In other words, They Guess. Sierra data is the last data I will follow.

Hornady #7 list a Start charge of 7.8gr and a Max charge of 11.5gr. Hodgdon list a Max charge of 13.2gr. Why are you bringing this little cartridge way past Max in every manual available? Do you have pressure testing equipment or do you just like pushing the envelope?

Sevens · August 22, 2014, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Quickie Load is not a friend of mine. I THINK that calculation system was made by some one that thought they know it all or a teeny bopper

Your credibility may take a hit when you elect to make curious assumptions and post snarky remarks based on nothing other than what appears to be a gut feeling. Did you spend the $150 to explore the software?

Nobody in their right mind would ever say that Quickload can trump what an actual ballistics laboratory can set up, execute, record and disseminate, but quite simply... there exists no tool on this planet before or since that can do what Quickload has been able to do. It is a software masterpiece that has ridiculous volumes of hard work, time and passion in to it's construction and you seem to wipe it aside with cute little phrases and the giggles of a "teeny bopper."

I have come to expect a little more from this particular area of TFL, but this thread has attracted some sewage. Thank goodness for the good guys we have here countering some of the nonsense. This thread has half the feel of a "Glock rulez & 1911 drulez" thread.

Bart B. · August 22, 2014, 03:31 PM

Even with its shortcomings, Quickload is better than reading case or primer shape changes. It's only trumped in this card game by SAAMI spec'd test barrels and transducer pressure systems. One needs to know Quickload's limitations as well as all those things influencing pressure before trying to outsmart Quickload. Then get control of your power and speed ego's, too.

Longshot4 · August 22, 2014, 07:55 PM

Ok ok I haven't a problem with the way you want to indorse (QL). Go ahead may you always have electricity... There is no way I would invest $150 bucks in another computer program when in 2 years it is outdated and Apple or XXX comes down to put them out of business... Call me old fashion. I use AM radio not CD... I believe in what I bereave as we all should. Although that is what makes us strong Isn't it? I have a load with witch most are not at all familiar with DONT I. But we are out there. The powder by your knowledge should be blowing me out of the water. Are not you curious why it doesn't? It isn't because I have a one tract mind. Or well maby I do until I find proof I am wrong. I say open that black box. You are correct in accusing me of using Hornet loads for K Hornet loads. If you get into it far enough you would understand that some times that's what you do with K Hornets. That's what I do and it has been working. Although that isn't sound information it may be called experimental I guess. Try thinking out side the box. Don't be blind to ideas. Get more involved so you can communicate more freely. You know as much as I do or more but we know differently. I could be right or I could be wrong. Lets do what we do best and find the unknown. I for one enjoy loading and all the challenges that come with it. Stay focused and lets not gripe to much. I know I have been known to push the envelope. It is in my nature. Back to the volume... I had cleaned the heads of the cases so I could easier read them and found that I had several WW cases mixed in with the R-P. Also the print of the stamps varied. I have sorted the ww out of the R-P and should be able to find a good load if the bedding or weight of bullets aren't the cause for the flyers. I appreciate you picking up on the load capacity. I bereave that the lighter loads of around 10.9 will be good for the 45gr. Hornet. I will be trying the 40gr. Hornet since the 35gr. Hornady shoots exceptionally well.

Brian Pfleuger · August 23, 2014, 02:08 PM

First, I have to note that this thread started with a question about case capacity. You still haven't checked what your case capacities actually are.

Secondly..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longshot4

Go ahead may you always have electricity... There is no way I would invest $150 bucks in another computer program when in 2 years it is outdated and Apple or XXX comes down to put them out of business...

QuickLoad has been around for a long time and updates (which aren't even required and don't change the fundamental function of the program) cost $15.95

It also has nothing to do with some supposed electricity failure as it is no reasonable persons only source of load data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longshot4

The powder by your knowledge should be blowing me out of the water. Are not you curious why it doesn't?

It doesn't have to "blow you out of the water" to be over-pressure. However, over-pressure loads do exhibit certain other indicators, such as poor accuracy... 1 5/16" (or even 5/8") groups at 60 yards from a machine rest is miserable.

Hodgdon's Hornet data for 45gr SP and lil'gun goes from 12.0-13.0gr and for K Hornet goes from 12.0-13.2gr. For either cartridge, your max loads are 5-7% over and your starting loads are 25% low. I've made adjustments in QL so it approximately matches Hodgdon's pressures and velocities, and it still thinks you're over-pressure by 25%.

Regardless of where you got your loads, you are WAY over max loads from ANY source.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longshot4

You are correct in accusing me of using Hornet loads for K Hornet loads.

As noted, Sierra's load data is not pressure tested. Your loads are not remotely close to the what Hodgdon shows for either the Hornet or K Hornet, which should be the most trustworthy data in this instance since they make the powder AND use pressure test equipment.

RC20 · August 23, 2014, 07:55 PM

I simply cannot imagine plugging all my cases to see how much water they hold
(let alone the water tensions being perfect on each one)

I will stay with KISS.

One of these days I will fill a few with a fine powder and see what the variation is but only out of curiosity.

I can size them, primer and then empty them when done. Probably as good and accurate as anything and my scales only go to 1/10 as well.

Brian Pfleuger · August 23, 2014, 08:18 PM

You don't have to "plug" them, the spent primer works fine and you don't have to check them all.
Water surface tension is solved by adding a tiny amount of dish soap. It's not that critical anyway. The error is only a tenth grain or so.

RC20 · August 24, 2014, 10:15 PM

But then they arn't sized so that has to throw the whole thing off 10 or 20 grains (grin)

steve4102 · August 25, 2014, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC20

But then they arn't sized so that has to throw the whole thing off 10 or 20 grains (grin)

When checking case capacity it's best to use a fired un-sized case.

Longshot4 · August 25, 2014, 04:01 PM

As I was closely inspecting my cases. I found it difficult to read the small tarnished head stamps. I cleaned the brass with a rag and solvent. I could see that the brass was WW and Rem mixed. One of the rem cases had a larger letter size and one WW had a wider rim. I decided to check out the variation in the cases by weight. Of 34 cases 23 were R-P and 11 were WW.
The 23 R-P cases had a spread of 1.6 gr. mean weight was 54.0gr.
The 11 WW cases had a spread of 0.8 gr. mean weight of 54.3gr.
I have neck sized the cases with a Redding neck sizing die Series B. I sized half the length of the neck. I will be keeping the WW and R-P cases separated. I will be loading the cases with Serra 40gr. Hornet bullets. Although the loading will take some time since I will be hunting down some Lil'Gun powder. Perhaps some day I will take the time to try some wet measuring on these cases but for now it isn't practical.

Brian Pfleuger · August 25, 2014, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC20

But then they arn't sized so that has to throw the whole thing off 10 or 20 grains (grin)

For one thing, there's likely not a case on the planet that changes in capacity by 10 or 20 grains when it's sized. If there is, it would only be .50BMG or similar. Most cases have under 50gr total capacity, some of the common magnums are up around 90 and many handgun cartridges are in the low to mid teens. The OPs K Hornet is around 15.5. Sizing certainly doesn't reduce any of them by 25-66% or more. I'd be surprised if even the massive 50BMG at around 295gr capacity was reduced more than 3-5gr, if I had to guess.

Second, as Steve4102 said, full expansion happens long before max pressure is reached on rifle cartridges, so accurate numbers are taken on the expanded case. Only cartridges that have max pressures under about 20,000psi are checked after sizing.

Third, even if you wanted to measure post-sizing capacity all it takes is 2 seconds to put a spend primer back in.

August 22, 2014, 10:16 AM	#26
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Powder column length, powder column diameter. Unique only to me. the 308 W is a short case from the shoulder to the case head, the powder column is shorter than the 30/06 powder column but the 308 W has a powder column that is larger in diameter than the 30/06 powder column. Back before reloaders acquired all the knowledge there is to know about cases and volume they claimed when using a military case reduce the powder charge 'A' Percent. Deductive reasoning lead reloaders to believe the military case was thicker because it was heavier, I didn't, I measured the case head thickness of the military case head. For the most common 30/06 military case the case head thickness was .200" from the top of the cup above the web to the case head. I applied the deductive reasoning and found the .200" case head thickness meant the case body was thicker and therefore heavier than the R-P 30/06 case. Difference"? The powder column, the military case had a long powder column that was smaller than in diameter then the R-P 30/06 case. The R-P 30/06 cases had a short powder column because of the .260" case head thickness but a thinner case body. The R-P case had a shorter powder column with a larger diameter. F. Guffey

August 22, 2014, 01:11 PM	#28
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	Now this is getting interesting. Quickie Load is not a friend of mine. I THINK that calculation system was made by some one that thought they know it all or a teeny bopper. Don't believe every thing you read but read it with a grain of salt. Do all of you understand the math calculations that (QL) uses to figure. Dose it take the magic of chemistry. I for one am not that sharp and actually who is and who is to say so. I am from Michigan show me. LilGun to my knowledge is a relatively new powder. My (Sierra 5th Edition) Starting load for Lil'Gun IS 7.1 Gr. Call that early research. When I started loading with that powder I found one of about 8> of my manuals that I owned to have any information on it. Yea I am getting to be a Old Dog. Ha Ha For those that are not using Lil'Gun. It is requiring you to open your eyes. I like it for my Hornet. I have never ever used a better powder. It is EASY. Even a teeny bopper could use. Well lets not go too far. Ha I haven't tried measuring my volumes yet. I am considering using Lil'Gun to weigh and sort. Ya see Hornet cases aren't floating around much. The shelves are mostly empty of loading equipment around here. Keep loading and keep learning.

August 22, 2014, 03:31 PM	#33
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Even with its shortcomings, Quickload is better than reading case or primer shape changes. It's only trumped in this card game by SAAMI spec'd test barrels and transducer pressure systems. One needs to know Quickload's limitations as well as all those things influencing pressure before trying to outsmart Quickload. Then get control of your power and speed ego's, too.

August 22, 2014, 07:55 PM	#34
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	Ok ok I haven't a problem with the way you want to indorse (QL). Go ahead may you always have electricity... There is no way I would invest $150 bucks in another computer program when in 2 years it is outdated and Apple or XXX comes down to put them out of business... Call me old fashion. I use AM radio not CD... I believe in what I bereave as we all should. Although that is what makes us strong Isn't it? I have a load with witch most are not at all familiar with DONT I. But we are out there. The powder by your knowledge should be blowing me out of the water. Are not you curious why it doesn't? It isn't because I have a one tract mind. Or well maby I do until I find proof I am wrong. I say open that black box. You are correct in accusing me of using Hornet loads for K Hornet loads. If you get into it far enough you would understand that some times that's what you do with K Hornets. That's what I do and it has been working. Although that isn't sound information it may be called experimental I guess. Try thinking out side the box. Don't be blind to ideas. Get more involved so you can communicate more freely. You know as much as I do or more but we know differently. I could be right or I could be wrong. Lets do what we do best and find the unknown. I for one enjoy loading and all the challenges that come with it. Stay focused and lets not gripe to much. I know I have been known to push the envelope. It is in my nature. Back to the volume... I had cleaned the heads of the cases so I could easier read them and found that I had several WW cases mixed in with the R-P. Also the print of the stamps varied. I have sorted the ww out of the R-P and should be able to find a good load if the bedding or weight of bullets aren't the cause for the flyers. I appreciate you picking up on the load capacity. I bereave that the lighter loads of around 10.9 will be good for the 45gr. Hornet. I will be trying the 40gr. Hornet since the 35gr. Hornady shoots exceptionally well.

August 23, 2014, 07:55 PM	#36
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I simply cannot imagine plugging all my cases to see how much water they hold (let alone the water tensions being perfect on each one) I will stay with KISS. One of these days I will fill a few with a fine powder and see what the variation is but only out of curiosity. I can size them, primer and then empty them when done. Probably as good and accurate as anything and my scales only go to 1/10 as well.

August 23, 2014, 08:18 PM	#37
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	You don't have to "plug" them, the spent primer works fine and you don't have to check them all. Water surface tension is solved by adding a tiny amount of dish soap. It's not that critical anyway. The error is only a tenth grain or so.

August 24, 2014, 10:15 PM	#38
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	But then they arn't sized so that has to throw the whole thing off 10 or 20 grains (grin)

August 25, 2014, 04:01 PM	#40
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	As I was closely inspecting my cases. I found it difficult to read the small tarnished head stamps. I cleaned the brass with a rag and solvent. I could see that the brass was WW and Rem mixed. One of the rem cases had a larger letter size and one WW had a wider rim. I decided to check out the variation in the cases by weight. Of 34 cases 23 were R-P and 11 were WW. The 23 R-P cases had a spread of 1.6 gr. mean weight was 54.0gr. The 11 WW cases had a spread of 0.8 gr. mean weight of 54.3gr. I have neck sized the cases with a Redding neck sizing die Series B. I sized half the length of the neck. I will be keeping the WW and R-P cases separated. I will be loading the cases with Serra 40gr. Hornet bullets. Although the loading will take some time since I will be hunting down some Lil'Gun powder. Perhaps some day I will take the time to try some wet measuring on these cases but for now it isn't practical.