Trigger job or aftermarket? - Page 2

stagpanther · January 13, 2016, 08:41 AM

Quote:

If you don't want to drop a bunch of money on a 550 dollar AR, you can upgrade the trigger springs instead of the whole trigger group. The JP Enterprises spring kit: http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.8.3_spring.php which can give you a much better trigger feel with your current trigger for much cheaper than any other option.

If you don't want to spend the cash on another trigger, the JPE spring kit is what I recommend.

Yeah--that's pretty much what I was thinking of too--I knew they were out there some place.

I'm doing an install of two of their complete trigger groups right now. A bit of work--taking me a day to do versus a few minutes with most others. But you learn a heck of a lot about fire-control reliability over the long haul with their instructions--definitely gives pause for thought when considering the "just polish the sear/connector/spring" camp. I don't know if the video that comes with trigger is available on their website--but it is an eye-opener and good viweing for anyone who wants to work an AR triggers. The kicker is that I'm working on xx 308 platform rifles so I can't go under 4.5lb draw trigger spring--which is OK anyway since that's my preferred draw weight.

joe sixgun · January 13, 2016, 09:35 AM

Looks good, I think I will start with the spring kit and a polish. Nothing to lose in doing that.

stagpanther · January 13, 2016, 10:20 AM

My inexpert opinion--regardless of the avalanche of flames to the contrary that I'm sure I'll get--is stay away from ANY polishing of crucial trigger/sear connecting interfaces until you put several hundred rounds through your gun with just the springs--unless you are absolutely certain what the consequences could possibly be other than a smoother/lighter break.

joe sixgun · January 13, 2016, 10:37 AM

I currently have only 100 rounds through it. What I'm seeing with the upper removed, is that when I pull the trigger the hammer rocks back before it breaks. (No I'm not letting it hit the bolt catch or mag well.) this tells me the angles of the hammer\sear are incorrect. Am I wrong about that?

stagpanther · January 13, 2016, 11:45 AM

Quote:

I currently have only 100 rounds through it. What I'm seeing with the upper removed, is that when I pull the trigger the hammer rocks back before it breaks. (No I'm not letting it hit the bolt catch or mag well.) this tells me the angles of the hammer\sear are incorrect. Am I wrong about that?
__________________
DON'T TREAD ON ME !

Very hard for me (or anyone else) to tell without seeing the actual install--if there is actual wobble in the hammer while it is under tension in the cocked position there is definitely something odd going on there and I would go as far as to say cease firing the weapon and call the manufacturer--could be almost anything misaligned in the fire control group causing that (assuming you haven't already started modifying it). Just a guess--not saying that's a definitive analysis. Unless you're talking about trigger overtravel?

chevyhelm · January 13, 2016, 02:42 PM

+1 for the rra match trigger. relatively inexpensive, and feels great! or go for the geissle sd-c

joe sixgun · January 13, 2016, 08:15 PM

What I mean is that the hammer rocks back in the same way a double action revolver would upon pulling the trigger. It moves approximately 1\8 of an inch before it breaks. This makes me believe the surfaces are not flat against each other.

stagpanther · January 13, 2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

What I mean is that the hammer rocks back in the same way a double action revolver would upon pulling the trigger. It moves approximately 1\8 of an inch before it breaks. This makes me believe the surfaces are not flat against each other.
__________________
DON'T TREAD ON ME !

Again--kinda hard for me to tell what you mean without seeing pictures--It's possible that your disconnector timing might have some influence on the hammer moving a bit prior to breaking--though I'm not sure how you would get 1/8" movement.I'd call DPMS and ask them before you go any further with changing anything and see what they say.

Chainsaw. · January 14, 2016, 12:00 AM

I did a little trigger work on my wifes ar556. I good understanding of AR triggers, a fine stone and the patience to go slow and try it often resulted in a much better trigger pull, its now smoooooth and just a little shorter, just what I wanted. And as mentioned before I didnt have to spend another $80-200 on a $600 rifle. I spent that on an optic for it.

joe sixgun · January 14, 2016, 12:16 AM

I haven't messed with it yet. I have been dry firing the crap out of it to try to work put some of the gritty feeling. I think its helping. So far about 250 cycles. Kind of takes me back a couple of decades to snap-in barrels. That was fun.....or not.

stagpanther · January 14, 2016, 07:02 AM

Joe--it just occurred to me that what you might actually be seeing is the release of the hammer from the disconnector prior to the front shelf of the trigger engaging the hammer in the "ready to fire" position. That would give you an audible "pop" and hammer moving forward as you release the trigger from pulled as it resets (with upper removed from lower you should see this)--JP adjustable triggers do this and I know that DPMS uses JP's in the some of their guns like the LR 308 platforms. This is normal for an adjustable trigger like the JP--assuming the disconnector timing is correct (that "pop" of the hammer should happen at or very near the end of the trigger reset).

MrWesson · January 14, 2016, 08:03 AM

I'll go against the grain here. If you are prepared to buy an aftermarket trigger anyway why not attempt to improve your current trigger by honing/stoning it?

Testing a trigger is done at home and not at the range so there's no real danger unless you're an idiot.

Screw it up? Who cares just buy aftermarket then.

I have a fancy geissele trigger that runs over $300.. Glad the guy I bought the rifle from liked spending money

. Its the best trigger I've felt in the platform by far.

Worth $350? Not my $350.

illusion · January 15, 2016, 04:52 PM

[quote] Joe Sixgun: What I mean is that the hammer rocks back in the same way a double action revolver would upon pulling the trigger. It moves approximately 1\8 of an inch before it breaks. This makes me believe the surfaces are not flat against each other.

The design of the factory trigger does in fact cause the hammer to 'jack-back' slightly when the trigger is being pulled, before falling off the sear. That is what causes most of the crappy trigger pull.
This is the reason to replace it with a trigger such as the RRA Two Stage Match Trigger http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=434 for a well spent $85.00. This trigger will break clean as it has the hammer sear designed away from the pivot pin eliminating what you are describing. If you do not know the difference between a Single Stage and a Double Stage trigger, do yourself a favor and study up on them http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...stage-trigger/
If a person knows how to polish a trigger (most do not) the creep can be improved but the 'jack-back' cannot. BEST TO NOT DO IT.
BTW: Your trigger would probably move an eighth of an inch, as you stated, but the hammer 'jack-back' you are seeing is much less.
Cheers!

joe sixgun · January 15, 2016, 11:09 PM

Illusion you nailed it. I recently read an article in a magazine that clearly illustrated this condition. What harm would be done by relieving some of the angle from the notch on the hammer?

stagpanther · January 16, 2016, 07:57 AM

Just my opinion sixgun--I'm not an expert and telling you what you should or should not do.

In general, most people who are dissatisfied with their triggers on an AR (or any gun, for that matter) don't like either the amount of overtravel before hammer break--or the force needed to apply to the trigger to get the hammer to break.

The trigger group in a gas operated system like an AR is a pretty complex and dynamic system that is affected by several factors in it's operation. Smoothing a contact surface in the various engagement surfaces to get "cleaner" (i.e. Non-gritty") feel is OK--but once you actually start altering the actual amount of material or angle of the contact surface by substantively removing metal--you are possibly going to affect the entire fire control system--subtle changes in the geometry of how the different parts engage each other can have un-intended consequences such as irregular timing/firing. My personal opinion is unless you fully understand all these issues and are confident that you know what the various inter-reaction outcomes are going to be--I'd go down the "remove material" path as a last step. I would start with low-lying fruit that is easily reversible like a lighter spring kit.

My less than 2 cents : )

Skadoosh · January 16, 2016, 09:33 AM

I have a drop-in, never-used 4.5# National Match 2-stage trigger that I am willing to sell. An awesome trigger that I hate seeing go to waste. PM me if interested.

stagpanther · January 16, 2016, 10:18 AM

^^^^^Don't know what you're asking for it--but I've installed and used a couple of these--great all-around performer with good safety margins built-in and at under $80 or so a great drop-in solution to a stock "gritty mil-spec 6.5 lb'r" disease. : )

Llama Bob · January 16, 2016, 11:34 AM

I've had good luck with the rock river 2 stage, and on the high end the various Geissele triggers.

illusion · January 16, 2016, 11:55 AM

[quote:] Illusion you nailed it. I recently read an article in a magazine that clearly illustrated this condition. What harm would be done by relieving some of the angle from the notch on the hammer?

No offense Joe, but you have shown that you DO NOT know what you are doing.
Rounding (or relieving) an angle is begging for disaster. As stated previously the hardening on the hammer/trigger sears is thin and this is 'why' ONLY polishing is marginally allowed. Think 1000-1200 grit (or less) on an absolutely flat (as in glass pane backed) "scary-sharp abrasive" sheets and an absolutely square edge. NEVER change angles OR round any sear edge. Maintaining the identical angles 'as-was' is how the stock trigger is improved. Some will advocate reduced power springs but they are NOT necessary IF done properly. Most people DO NOT have the patience or ability to maintain the original angles long enough to get a glass-like polish surface. A moly grease like Chip McCormicks 'Trigger Slick' will assist in a (nearly) creep-free break.
BUT again, keep in mind that the 'jack-back' is always going to remain on a stock trigger. MY ADVICE: Bite the bullet. Cough up the $85 for the RRA Two-stage trigger while it is still on sale and chuck the original into the scrap parts bin. The RRA referred to previously has a light second stage with a crisp break and a quick lock time.
Trust me on this.. You will never look back!

Jimro · January 16, 2016, 02:06 PM

For 85 bucks it's not a bad deal to get the RRA NM trigger. Even if it does go softer after a few thousand rounds that isn't a big deal unless you are trying to make trigger pull weight at equipment check in for a leg match.

If you just want a lighter trigger, grease and a JPE spring kit will do that. But there is a reason why the bulk of people responding to this thread have recommended a replacement trigger. I spent the money on SSA and G2S triggers whenever I could get them on sale, but I was building Service Rifles which really need a good trigger to help the shooter be competitive.

Jimro

T. O'Heir · January 16, 2016, 02:37 PM

There's no start filling and grinding on any trigger when doing a trigger job. Polish only. And change springs.
Like illusion says, changing angles is "begging for disaster". You can make a nice safe target rifle into an uncontrollable FA. Or have the trigger not work at all.
"...dry firing the crap out of it to try to work put some of the gritty feeling..." Dry firing doesn't do that. Dry firing is a well known and respected training technique, but it ain't going to fix a bad trigger.

dakota.potts · January 16, 2016, 04:13 PM

As has been said, if you decide you must work on it yourself, do not use files, dremel, or sandpaper. Some say 1200 or higher sandpaper is higher, but I would not use anything but a very fine stone. You must not change any geometry or dimension which is why you're only polishing. You cannot remove or reshape anything, only smooth out the high or rough parts to improve your surface finish and reduce contact friction. Anything else can become unsafe very fast. As stated, there is also the issue of hardening.

I would just spend $60-80 on the ALG and be done with it. You're not ready to work on your trigger yet side you don't have an understanding of how it works. Asking questions is the first step to understanding but it's not a job I think you should try yet.

Just my opinion. I've been wrong before

Skadoosh · January 16, 2016, 05:41 PM

For the benefit of the OP, that is a never used RRA National Match 2-stage trigger in my previous post.

I've had it in my parts bin for at least six...maybe closer to seven years. It was intended to be paired up with a varmint rifle upper that I built but wound up selling the upper before I completed the lower.

I am asking $75 shipped.

erob3 · January 18, 2016, 08:01 PM

Polish the hammer surface and sear surface using a Dremel tool on the LOWEST speed, using one of the cotton disks and some Jewelers rouge. Both surfaces will shine like chrome. That's it. Don't keep grinding. That's it. I have ceramic stones and use them regularly, they are a great tool. But the Dremel will work just fine, JUST DON'T GET CARRIED AWAY. Polish, that's it. Know when to say when. The trigger pull will be smoother and somewhat reduced. I can't imagine you want a "Match" trigger with a 2LB pull on an AR. Good Luck. I hope that helps.

joe sixgun · January 18, 2016, 10:13 PM

That is where I am going to start. Then maybe some springs. Apparently any more than that I just might throw the earth off its axis or plunge the world into eternal darkness or something...lol. Thanks for all the advice folks. It has been helpful. I promise to be careful. No grinders or plasma cutters.

January 13, 2016, 09:35 AM	#27
joe sixgun Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: west michigan Posts: 185	Looks good, I think I will start with the spring kit and a polish. Nothing to lose in doing that. __________________ DON'T TREAD ON ME !

January 13, 2016, 10:20 AM	#28
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	My inexpert opinion--regardless of the avalanche of flames to the contrary that I'm sure I'll get--is stay away from ANY polishing of crucial trigger/sear connecting interfaces until you put several hundred rounds through your gun with just the springs--unless you are absolutely certain what the consequences could possibly be other than a smoother/lighter break. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

January 14, 2016, 12:16 AM	#35
joe sixgun Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: west michigan Posts: 185	I haven't messed with it yet. I have been dry firing the crap out of it to try to work put some of the gritty feeling. I think its helping. So far about 250 cycles. Kind of takes me back a couple of decades to snap-in barrels. That was fun.....or not. __________________ DON'T TREAD ON ME !

January 14, 2016, 07:02 AM	#36
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	Joe--it just occurred to me that what you *might* actually be seeing is the release of the hammer from the disconnector prior to the front shelf of the trigger engaging the hammer in the "ready to fire" position. That would give you an audible "pop" and hammer moving forward as you release the trigger from pulled as it resets (with upper removed from lower you should see this)--JP adjustable triggers do this and I know that DPMS uses JP's in the some of their guns like the LR 308 platforms. This is normal for an adjustable trigger like the JP--assuming the disconnector timing is correct (that "pop" of the hammer should happen at or very near the end of the trigger reset). __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!* Last edited by stagpanther; January 14, 2016 at 07:21 AM.

January 15, 2016, 04:52 PM	#38
illusion Member Join Date: January 13, 2015 Posts: 20	I believe what you describe is normal Joe [quote] Joe Sixgun: What I mean is that the hammer rocks back in the same way a double action revolver would upon pulling the trigger. It moves approximately 1\8 of an inch before it breaks. This makes me believe the surfaces are not flat against each other. The design of the factory trigger does in fact cause the hammer to 'jack-back' slightly when the trigger is being pulled, before falling off the sear. That is what causes most of the crappy trigger pull. This is the reason to replace it with a trigger such as the RRA Two Stage Match Trigger http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=434 for a well spent $85.00. This trigger will break clean as it has the hammer sear designed away from the pivot pin eliminating what you are describing. If you do not know the difference between a Single Stage and a Double Stage trigger, do yourself a favor and study up on them http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...stage-trigger/ If a person knows how to polish a trigger (most do not) the creep can be improved but the 'jack-back' cannot. BEST TO NOT DO IT. BTW: Your trigger would probably move an eighth of an inch, as you stated, but the hammer 'jack-back' you are seeing is much less. Cheers!

January 13, 2016, 10:37 AM	#29
joe sixgun Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: west michigan Posts: 185	I currently have only 100 rounds through it. What I'm seeing with the upper removed, is that when I pull the trigger the hammer rocks back before it breaks. (No I'm not letting it hit the bolt catch or mag well.) this tells me the angles of the hammer\sear are incorrect. Am I wrong about that? __________________ DON'T TREAD ON ME !

January 13, 2016, 02:42 PM	#31
chevyhelm Member Join Date: December 15, 2011 Location: Wentzville, MO Posts: 21	+1 for the rra match trigger. relatively inexpensive, and feels great! or go for the geissle sd-c

January 13, 2016, 08:15 PM	#32
joe sixgun Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: west michigan Posts: 185	What I mean is that the hammer rocks back in the same way a double action revolver would upon pulling the trigger. It moves approximately 1\8 of an inch before it breaks. This makes me believe the surfaces are not flat against each other. __________________ DON'T TREAD ON ME !

January 14, 2016, 12:00 AM	#34
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	I did a little trigger work on my wifes ar556. I good understanding of AR triggers, a fine stone and the patience to go slow and try it often resulted in a much better trigger pull, its now smoooooth and just a little shorter, just what I wanted. And as mentioned before I didnt have to spend another $80-200 on a $600 rifle. I spent that on an optic for it.

January 14, 2016, 08:03 AM	#37
MrWesson Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 357	I'll go against the grain here. If you are prepared to buy an aftermarket trigger anyway why not attempt to improve your current trigger by honing/stoning it? Testing a trigger is done at home and not at the range so there's no real danger unless you're an idiot. Screw it up? Who cares just buy aftermarket then. I have a fancy geissele trigger that runs over $300.. Glad the guy I bought the rifle from liked spending money . Its the best trigger I've felt in the platform by far. Worth $350? Not my $350.

January 15, 2016, 11:09 PM	#39
joe sixgun Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: west michigan Posts: 185	Illusion you nailed it. I recently read an article in a magazine that clearly illustrated this condition. What harm would be done by relieving some of the angle from the notch on the hammer? __________________ DON'T TREAD ON ME !

January 16, 2016, 07:57 AM	#40
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	Just my opinion sixgun--I'm not an expert and telling you what you should or should not do. In general, most people who are dissatisfied with their triggers on an AR (or any gun, for that matter) don't like either the amount of overtravel before hammer break--or the force needed to apply to the trigger to get the hammer to break. The trigger group in a gas operated system like an AR is a pretty complex and dynamic system that is affected by several factors in it's operation. Smoothing a contact surface in the various engagement surfaces to get "cleaner" (i.e. Non-gritty") feel is OK--but once you actually start altering the actual amount of material or angle of the contact surface by substantively removing metal--you are possibly going to affect the entire fire control system--subtle changes in the geometry of how the different parts engage each other can have un-intended consequences such as irregular timing/firing. My personal opinion is unless you fully understand all these issues and are confident that you know what the various inter-reaction outcomes are going to be--I'd go down the "remove material" path as a last step. I would start with low-lying fruit that is easily reversible like a lighter spring kit. My less than 2 cents : ) __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

January 16, 2016, 09:33 AM	#41
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	I have a drop-in, never-used 4.5# National Match 2-stage trigger that I am willing to sell. An awesome trigger that I hate seeing go to waste. PM me if interested. __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

January 16, 2016, 10:18 AM	#42
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	^^^^^Don't know what you're asking for it--but I've installed and used a couple of these--great all-around performer with good safety margins built-in and at under $80 or so a great drop-in solution to a stock "gritty mil-spec 6.5 lb'r" disease. : ) __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

January 16, 2016, 11:34 AM	#43
Llama Bob Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2016 Posts: 337	I've had good luck with the rock river 2 stage, and on the high end the various Geissele triggers.

January 16, 2016, 11:55 AM	#44
illusion Member Join Date: January 13, 2015 Posts: 20	Do not do that! [quote:] Illusion you nailed it. I recently read an article in a magazine that clearly illustrated this condition. What harm would be done by relieving some of the angle from the notch on the hammer? No offense Joe, but you have shown that you DO NOT know what you are doing. Rounding (or relieving) an angle is begging for disaster. As stated previously the hardening on the hammer/trigger sears is thin and this is 'why' ONLY polishing is marginally allowed. Think 1000-1200 grit (or less) on an absolutely flat (as in glass pane backed) "scary-sharp abrasive" sheets and an absolutely square edge. NEVER change angles OR round any sear edge. Maintaining the identical angles 'as-was' is how the stock trigger is improved. Some will advocate reduced power springs but they are NOT necessary IF done properly. Most people DO NOT have the patience or ability to maintain the original angles long enough to get a glass-like polish surface. A moly grease like Chip McCormicks 'Trigger Slick' will assist in a (nearly) creep-free break. BUT again, keep in mind that the 'jack-back' is always going to remain on a stock trigger. MY ADVICE: Bite the bullet. Cough up the $85 for the RRA Two-stage trigger while it is still on sale and chuck the original into the scrap parts bin. The RRA referred to previously has a light second stage with a crisp break and a quick lock time. Trust me on this.. You will never look back!

January 16, 2016, 02:06 PM	#45
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	For 85 bucks it's not a bad deal to get the RRA NM trigger. Even if it does go softer after a few thousand rounds that isn't a big deal unless you are trying to make trigger pull weight at equipment check in for a leg match. If you just want a lighter trigger, grease and a JPE spring kit will do that. But there is a reason why the bulk of people responding to this thread have recommended a replacement trigger. I spent the money on SSA and G2S triggers whenever I could get them on sale, but I was building Service Rifles which really need a good trigger to help the shooter be competitive. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

January 16, 2016, 02:37 PM	#46
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	There's no start filling and grinding on any trigger when doing a trigger job. Polish only. And change springs. Like illusion says, changing angles is "begging for disaster". You can make a nice safe target rifle into an uncontrollable FA. Or have the trigger not work at all. "...dry firing the crap out of it to try to work put some of the gritty feeling..." Dry firing doesn't do that. Dry firing is a well known and respected training technique, but it ain't going to fix a bad trigger. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 16, 2016, 04:13 PM	#47
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	As has been said, if you decide you must work on it yourself, do not use files, dremel, or sandpaper. Some say 1200 or higher sandpaper is higher, but I would not use anything but a very fine stone. You must not change any geometry or dimension which is why you're only polishing. You cannot remove or reshape anything, only smooth out the high or rough parts to improve your surface finish and reduce contact friction. Anything else can become unsafe very fast. As stated, there is also the issue of hardening. I would just spend $60-80 on the ALG and be done with it. You're not ready to work on your trigger yet side you don't have an understanding of how it works. Asking questions is the first step to understanding but it's not a job I think you should try yet. Just my opinion. I've been wrong before __________________ Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

January 16, 2016, 05:41 PM	#48
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	For the benefit of the OP, that is a never used RRA National Match 2-stage trigger in my previous post. I've had it in my parts bin for at least six...maybe closer to seven years. It was intended to be paired up with a varmint rifle upper that I built but wound up selling the upper before I completed the lower. I am asking $75 shipped. __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

January 18, 2016, 08:01 PM	#49
erob3 Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2010 Location: East Tn. for 56 years Posts: 540	Polish the hammer surface and sear surface using a Dremel tool on the LOWEST speed, using one of the cotton disks and some Jewelers rouge. Both surfaces will shine like chrome. That's it. Don't keep grinding. That's it. I have ceramic stones and use them regularly, they are a great tool. But the Dremel will work just fine, JUST DON'T GET CARRIED AWAY. Polish, that's it. Know when to say when. The trigger pull will be smoother and somewhat reduced. I can't imagine you want a "Match" trigger with a 2LB pull on an AR. Good Luck. I hope that helps. __________________ If something is worth doing well, it is worth failing at to get there. Last edited by erob3; January 18, 2016 at 08:08 PM.

January 18, 2016, 10:13 PM	#50
joe sixgun Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: west michigan Posts: 185	That is where I am going to start. Then maybe some springs. Apparently any more than that I just might throw the earth off its axis or plunge the world into eternal darkness or something...lol. Thanks for all the advice folks. It has been helpful. I promise to be careful. No grinders or plasma cutters. __________________ DON'T TREAD ON ME !