Run Girly-Man, run!

[Conservadude]

So I've been wondering ...with a conceal carry license, you pretty much lose the ability to ever get into a physical contest with anyone. Like if you saw some bum stealing someone's purse, you can't go shove him off and take the purse back ...get into a contest with him and he may grab your gun (assuming he becomes aware of it). I would guess that most bad-guy confrontations are non-gun related ...what should someone with a concealed gun do when an unarmed perp decideds to give you a hard time? Run? Maybe whimper a little? Anyone give this some thought? Seems like carrying a gun reduces you to being effective in *only* those cases that threaten immediate grave bodily harm or death...

Brian

[1BadF350]

3 words come to mind. Stay cool calm and collected at all times. Walk away from trouble if you can and take every opportunity to do so. Call 911 if you have to or make sure someone else does. Carrying a concealed weapon requires alot of resposibility and descretion. If he goes for your gun you grab his hand and lock it on there, move with his movement so it doesn't get yanked out, grab his throat and squeeze as hard as you can with your free hand. Thats when your primal instict to stay alive at all costs takes over.

I'm thinking out loud here anyway. I'm sure someone will chime in who has more experience or training.

[Dusty Miller]

"Hey man, I don't want any trouble with anybody. I'm sorry you're upset but I don't want any trouble." In my case, I'd add that I'm a 61 year old man with a bad back and then repeat that I don't want any trouble. Make sure you say it loud enough for witnesses to hear. Don't pull the gun until you absolutely have to.

[Dusty Miller]

AND, don't be afraid of somebody calling you a coward or a "girly-man"!

[1BadF350]

Come to think of it, I've had to walk away from people looking for trouble a few times. I don't carry a weapon anyway. I wlked away or diffused the situation by talking politely and repeating the fact that I didn't want trouble. This happened once with a guy who went into a fit of road rage on me. I just appologized repeatedly for cutting him off and after about a minute of him spouting off at the mouth he finally walked away. It completely ruined my day and I stewed about it for 2 days wanting to have beat him sensless. I know I handled it the right way so I have no regrets about it now. Whatever you do, resist the urge to pull your piece unless it is the last resort for self preservation.

[TheBluesMan]

Originally Posted by Conservadude

[W]hat should someone with a concealed gun do when an unarmed perp decides to give you a hard time?

Just giving you a hard time, right? By all means, if the threat isn't lethal, try to remove yourself from the situation. If you look like a coward, don't sweat it. When you are carrying a firearm, you lose your right to defend your honor.

Sun Tzu said "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

If the "hard time" escalates into a minor physical threat, perhaps some "less-than lethal" persuasion is called for. O.C. pepper spray often works well in this case.

Only when one is in fear for their life should one draw their firearm.

Just one man's opinion. Interested in hearing others.

-Dave

[Dwight55]

One of the Christian classes I teach is simply entitled: Meekness.

Meekness is then defined as knowing the strength/power/authority one has, and using just enough to accomplish the desired end. In other words, having the power, but using it under control.

Meekness is definitely called for in these situations: a bg or perp decides you are to be his verbal lunch, his profane whipping post for the day, or his "watch me ladies while I do in this guy" bravado act.

Pulling out the pistol, showing it, . . . or even hinting you have it will only make matters worse as you could easily be charged with assault with a deadly weapon by any overzealous DA, . . . or the bg may decide to escalate matters with his own piece.

A quiet answer, a smile, a facing him but backing away: all of these are things you need to at least try before pulling the Colt out. If he/she escalates to the life/death threat level, . . . you have done your best, . . . repeat things like: I really don't want any trouble, . . . yes I am sorry you feel that way, . . . and a tip I got recently (and had never really considered), be careful that you are politically correct. Ethnic innuendo, racial put downs, any verbal escalation on your part can hurt your case later if you have to go to court and the handgun is involved.

Anyway, . . . be meek, . . . strength under control. It'll work.

May God bless,
Dwight

[keens]

1BadF350...it may have made you feel bad for two days (it would have me as well) but I admire you for your control. I agree with everyones post to this so far...I think you will know when it begins to get to be a lethal situation...if we stay alert...then again, we have no garantees that any of us can handle ANY situation every time. We can even the odds a bit though as most of us reading this are already.

[txinvestigator]

I carry everywhere, I also carry OC, I am a former cop, have trained in several martial arts, and feel confident that I can handle myself.

Where my pride lies is in being able to defuse a situation and never need to resort to any use of force. I also do Executive Protection, and 99% of the time if I would have to use force I would have failed my mission.

NEVER feel bad about avoiding violence.

All that said, if my attempts fail to peacefully resolve a situation and I am forced to defend myself, I would not hesitate to do so. Just carrying a gun does not mean I have to use it to use force. I carry in a secure holster, so I can use other tactics without worry about losing the firearm.

[Dwight55]

txinvestigator, . . . you wrote: "All that said, if my attempts fail to peacefully resolve a situation and I am forced to defend myself, I would not hesitate to do so."

Thank you, . . . and if I may add something to what you just said, . . . I think one of the fears of many of us who are not LEO trained, etc. is the fear that we will not react quick enough, and when the stuff is bouncing off the fan blades, . . . we are in a "catch up" situation.

Once the decision to defend it made, . . . the next actions must be quick, decisive, accurate, and defensible in a court of law. And it all must be done in a "heartbeat" of time.

That is why many of us emphasize, . . . plan, train, plan, train, and when we get done planning and training, . . . do some training and planning.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Nanuk]

No one really answered your question. your reaction should be based on several factors. From the sound of your question you are non-law enforcement. My answer is tempered with the fact that I have been an LEO for 26 years. During an off duty incident, if the victim is not being hurt, only relieved of some property I am less inclined to become physically involved. However, I have absolutely no tolerance for thieves of any kind and usually find that I have suddenly grabbed the BG by the hair/throat/ears etc. and banging it on the closest solid object. If the victim is being hurt, there is no option. Now at 6'0" and 230 lbs when I get involved there is no mistake. I attack the BG viciously and aggressively, to announce your presence to the BG before you decide to intercede is not very smart tactically. Its all about survival. You should always carry your weapon in a secure manner, try jumping-jacks in your concealment rig. If you are the intended victim, attack, attack, attack, these people feed off of fear, any hesitation on your part will be seen by the BG as fear. That is when they get dangerous. I hope this helps while still maintaining my soft politically correct sheeplike disguise.

[David Armstrong]

People who carry a gun for defense should keep in mind that most situations they will get into are not shooting situations, and prepare appropriately. To me that means having a non-lethal force option with me as well as the gun. Something like a kubotan, or pepper spray, or other intermediate options give you some roome between the extremes of "run away" and "shoot the sucker."

[txinvestigator]

People who carry a gun for defense should keep in mind that most situations they will get into are not shooting situations, and prepare appropriately. To me that means having a non-lethal force option with me as well as the gun. Something like a kubotan, or pepper spray, or other intermediate options give you some roome between the extremes of "run away" and "shoot the sucker."

Amen bro.

And Dwight55, thanks.

[Ninjato]

Something like a kubotan, or pepper spray, or other intermediate options give you some roome between the extremes of "run away" and "shoot the sucker."

I find Kelly Worden's TRAVEL WRENCH is very effective for "intermediate" kinds of situations.

[Derius_T]

Its a good question, and one I have often asked myself. Thankfully I really don't get in many confrontations anymore. At 6' 4" and 280lbs, most guys don't bother me initially. But I see what you are asking. Say the guy bad mouths you, you do all you can short of turning and physically running away,
(which you should do even that if it keeps the gun from coming out, the hell
with pride. Pride doesn't serve you well in prison) and anyway, the threat keeps escalating, the guy pushes, grabs you, ect, and starts beating on you.
When does it become threatening 'ENOUGH' to pull the gun. Obviously you try to fight back with whatever means you can, WITHOUT USING THE GUN. But its a fine judgment situation that I hope I am NEVER in. If he is beating you and obviously winning, and hurting you, do you pull the gun to stop him? Do you pull the gun because you are afraid if he knocks you out he will find it and use it on you?

I wish I had an end all answer, but I don't. The only advise I can give is to AVOID the situation at all costs, even if it makes you look like the biggest sissy in the world. Who cares. I know its hard to let some jerk abuse you, but its alot harder to spend the rest of your life in prison.....

[Double Naught Spy]

This sort of question comes up fairly often. Legally carrying should not preclude you from any of your normal activities. However, getting involved in a physical confrontation with a purse snatcher may result in a situation where your concealed gun is no longer concealed and maybe ends up out in the open, on the ground as a result of the struggle and then you have a very complicating factor added to the scuffle as you managed to bring a firearm to a non-lethal confrontation and then lose control of the firearm.

Some people worry about not being able to get into fights and what not to defend their honor should somebody call them an ugly name, the impression being that carrying a gun means you always have to back down. Many of those folks who worry about this probably should not be carrying in the first place without the maturity to conduct themselves more appropriately.

So these questions do come up and I have to wonder how often it is that we become confrontational and heroes after we start carrying versus before we carried. One thing I have learned is that protecting somebody else's property, such as a woman's purse, but some sort of non-lethal interdiction like shoving the guy away, can readily turn into extremely nasty situations where the bad guy has no problem ramped up the situation to a dangerous or lethal situation for reasons not clear to the good samaritan at the time of the event.

[scbair]

Some good advice in this thread!

My perspective: I'm armed, trained, alert and self-confident. What do I care what some no-account street punk(s) may think or say? Their opinions and insults are worthless and meaningless. Just as well get upset because owls hoot and crows squawk! I trust my loved ones are secure enough in their knowledge of my history that they wouldn't believe any gangsta's comments, either.

I mind my own business, go my own way,and "do my own thing." They should feel free to do likewise, UNLESS their "thing" seriously threatens me or mine. At that point, it becomes my "business" to protect me and mine. I'll retreat if possible, warn as firmly as I can, and (as a last resort) use force.

Caveat: Plan & think ahead; determine the "line in the sand" in advance. If the subjects approach threateningly, KNOW at what point the threat becomes just cause for countervailing force, and DON'T HESITATE beyond that point.

I'm now 50 years old, and lead a fairly unexciting lifestyle; haven't felt the need to "debate" with any hoodlum-types for a whole lotta years. If someone does lead a lifestyle and have a nature that requires meeting insult with insult, I strongly urge that person to leave his/her weapon at home. We law-abiding CWP-holders do NOT want any such negative press as is sure to result.

[OF]

Something I've noticed when I started carrying, I tend not to get into those stare-down-type situations anymore. I used to all the time, but now, almost never.

Why is that?

I think it's a couple reasons:

1) Carrying a gun has me operating on a different level than I used to. I never feel threatened anymore. It takes a whole lot more from someone before I consider them a threat that I actually have to expend so much as one brain cell on. I just don't find alot of the everyday male-testosterone-induced chest thumping to be anything more than just mildly amusing, really. Like watching children debate. It's funny when you realize it's just for show and has no meaning, no impact and they have no clue. Alot of the human debris out there is just off my radar screen now. I mean, really, what are they going to do? I have a gun for crying out loud.

2) I'm really not interested in shooting anybody. And if I get involved, even on a minimal level, with one of these knuckledraggers, it just might escalate to the point where I do have to shoot him. And that's not good for anyone.

You have to understand that alot of these slimes are like fishermen trolling for something. They just bluster about their day throwing lines out hoping to get a bite. Hoping someone is going to react or give them 'the look' and then it's on. If you carry a gun, you don't want to make this slug think you're ready to give him what he wants, which is to get into an altercation with somebody, anybody. If living the sort of life where you get to go chest-to-chest with these lowlifes is your cup of tea, you should reconsider your decision to carry a gun because your time as a free man is going to be borrowed from that point forward.

Keep your head up, but recognize the difference between a real threat and a common scuzball. If only we lived in a society where these scum knew that the normal people were armed, all this would be academic. But we don't. And if you shoot somebody as an end result of an altercation that you participated in, it will be bad for you, to put it mildly.

- Gabe

[XavierBreath]

Keep your head up, but recognize the difference between a real threat and a common scuzball.

Well said GRD, the entire post.

[Nnobby45]

since you started the thread and are asking us for advice, what are some of your thoughts on the matter? Would you whimper as you ran away----in case you'd like to participate in your own discussion? I'm assuming you have a CCW and have given some thought to the matter.

Nolan

[Conservadude]

Hi, Brian here. I'll admit my dry sense of humor and sometimes facetious manner. Yes, I carry. Didn't respond 'til today because I haven't been back here to check on answers until just now. Thanks everyone...

That said, I'll say that I "like" the meekness answer the best. All of the avoidance and 'avoid pride' answers were right on. Legally you can't show or use lethal force unless you (or someone) are in immediate danger of grave harm or death. The LEO (one of them?) came closest to answering the purse snatcher question and I agree ...material posessions are not something to worry about and if you are carrying, you can't risk the gun being out of control and in the bad guy's hands. Someone else said that too.

I probably could've stated my hypothetical situation a bit better too. The general topic is "What to do if you know darn well that you can stop a bad action, but can't risk the gun getting involved?" Someone grabbing a kid and running is probably a better one than a purse or some material theft situation. I'm not sure if kid-snatching counts ...you can't tell so easily if a situation is 'bad' or just 'looks bad', even though some do end up in death or grave harm to someone _later on_. The law says you can't use your lethal force until the threat becomes real and immediate. I guess a hand on the gun together with a loudly shouted command to stop and say "I have a gun" might give the perp a chance to explain? Oh well ...these situations are rare and real life has a way of clarifying things for you. But the bottom line is that you can't show or use lethal force until it's about to be used on you or someone you choose to protect. Sometimes you will just have to watch and let something happen I suppose.

'preciate it.

Brian

[Conservadude]

Oh yes, I like the alternative but affective force solution too ...the pepper spray in particular may be a way to "reach out and touch someone" without getting close enough to risk a gun grab. Some of the new long-shot Grizzly bear repellents ought to work. Keep the dominant hand free and shoot the spray with the nondominant hand. Shout angry commands.

And personally, I feel no shame whatsoever if someone doesn't like me or says bad things, even Girly Man (I still chuckle when I think of Arnold using that term to the Girly Men he was addressing...). My original question was a "what if" for a situation that may require immediate action but you don't want to get too close ...I think I have the answers that I need. Thx.

Brian

[zonamo]

Originally Posted by Conservadude

Like if you saw some bum stealing someone's purse, you can't go shove him off and take the purse back ...

Not getting into stupid fights is a good idea whether you have a defensive firearm on you or not.

But I don't follow why carrying a defensive weapon means you have to let some bum steal someone's purse in front of you when you would otherwise try to stop them from committing a felony.

[Derius_T]

zonamo wrote:

But I don't follow why carrying a defensive weapon means you have to let some bum steal someone's purse in front of you when you would otherwise try to stop them from committing a felony.

Okay, heres a hypothetical situation. Our superhero, 2nd ammendment man,
(you) is standing on the street corner. Over out of the corner of your eye
you spot a miscreant stealing an old ladies purse. He turns to run as she
screams something about her pension check! Being the fearless champion of
justice that you are, (you have a gun now) you give chase down the crowded
sidewalk. You catch him. There is a mighty struggle. Blows are exchanged.
During the struggle, your firearm comes free and falls to the ground, or
bad guy grabs it....either way, previously UNARMED bad guy, is now ARMED
with YOUR GUN! He fires at you! With your superhuman speed, (and ninja
training) you drop to the ground, and the bullet passes over your head........
right into the chest of that little girl waiting for the bus! Bad guy drops your
gun and runs away, now there you stand, with YOUR GUN, USED IN A
MURDER, that YOU CAUSED (in the laws eyes) because you brought a gun
into an otherwise non-lethal situation...................

Just a reality check.......

[CB3]

And as you stand there holding your smoking gun while the little girl bleeds out in front of you, a METEOR drops out of the sky in two pieces, one of which hits and kills you so you never have to go to trial, and the other hits the perp but only permanently cripples him so he has to live the rest of his life a victim, and . . .

There will always be a scenario someone can dream up illustrating why not to do something. Then there is real life, granted with all its quirks and turns that complicate things.

In the "what if" department--I used to skydive. When I saw my first sport jumper bounce, I really questioned whether what I was doing for fun was worth it, especially when I had watched both his main and reserve chutes fail. After the initial shock wore off, our team kept jumping, making some adjustments to equipment or technique--learning from another's fatal lesson, but not hiding from life. The second time I saw one die, it wasn't so difficult, because I knew it was more his lack of preparation and poor emergency procedure execution than the gear's fault.

Sometimes our luck just runs out. Even hiding in your house won't necessarily help, because a meteor could still hit it, and you.

Of course, these are personal decisions. Properly trained and equipped, with the proper mental attitude, there is a lot even a citizen can do to reduce crime, but it is not his "responsibility" under the law. There are positive and potentially negative consequences. You have to weigh them out and live with your decision in the moral realm also. It is those who are ill-equipped and lack foresight and training who most often get themselves into trouble. They committ when they should not.

I agree that the presence of a concealed handgun elevates responsibility and awareness. I agree one should not escalate a personal encounter. I agree there are many situations where others are victims that would dictate you just be a good witness, even though or especially because you have a concealed handgun.

But if fear of the great "what ifs" and prosecution are such controlling influences in one's life, why carry? Just be a victim, and allow others who are unprepared or unaware be victims, even if they are too old or young or weak to defend themselves and you are their only hope. You are the one who has to deal with his concscience, as well as the law and financial considerations.

The wise person knows when to get involved, and when to stay away. If I understand the force continuum, have less-than-lethal options and a good opportunity to influence positively the outcome of a bad situation, I would likely help. To many, having a gun means a gun is the only solution to a problem. Not true.

Unarmed criminals are usually wimps. That's why they ply their trade. The least interference from a competent person will often scare them away. My gun carried in Thunderwear is not coming out unless I get it out.

An armed criminal doing something wrong is already a felon. Armed felons induce fear of one's life for myself or others. Still, pulling your gun may not be the best tactic, depending on the situation. Scenarios such as those that started this thread have so many variables not stated as to make them real excercises in "what if" propositions. Would we be able to process a lot more information at the scene and react quickly and correctly? Not necessarily, especially if without training and experience.

In Salt Lake City a few years ago, an armed man took a number of hostages in a library. One was an off duty sherriff's deputy in civilian clothing who was carrying a handgun. This officer waited over 40 minutes before the criminal escalated the situation. Then the officer shot and killed the perp, having tried with others to resolve the encounter without resorting to the ultimate solution he knew was available to him all along. No one else was hurt. Good tactics.

Sorry to ramble so long. My life experiences and values are different than anyone else's. What I would or would not do in a given situation may be instructive for others, but not necessarily controlling. I am not an authority on all this, although I guess I try to sound like one (don't we all?). Since we have different perspectives and very unclear scenarios, we can expect a lot of different responses, all of which may be right for the individual writing them, but perhaps wrong for many others.

I enjoy the dialogue. Carry on! CB3