Smith and Wesson 22LR revolver for self defense.

rem44m · July 9, 2012, 03:06 PM

Before I get everyone all riled up about using the 22lr over something else I need to clarify this is for my wife who has a Sig P238 but never carries it because it is to expensive to practice with so she is not comfortable with the gun and has problems manipulating the safety (practice would help) but either way I can not get her to practice with it. She also does not like carrying something where it is "cocked" or the hammer is back so it leaves me to a small double action revolver that is very cheap to practice with. So I bought her a Smith and Wesson 317.

I'm curious what type of 22lr ammo would be the best for self defense?

9mm1033 · July 9, 2012, 03:13 PM

A fair question and you should get a ton of opinions. I really don't know what 22 ammo is best for SD, but I do know their are many six feet in the ground having been shot with a 22. Has your wife considered a light weight 38 revolver, similar to the M317? You can practice with the 22 and use the 38 round for SD.

idek · July 9, 2012, 03:25 PM

If a .22 is all I had, I'd load it with CCI Velocitors. They seem to offer the best combination of mass, velocity, and reliability as .22 ammo goes. I often see people recommend CCI Stingers, but in my own tests in water jugs (out of a 4" Buckmark), neither bullet expanded but the Velocitors penetrated much better (Stingers stopped in the 3rd jug. Velocitors stopped in the 5th).

An unexpanded Velocitor also also has a blunter, broader tip than Stingers, MiniMags, or most other .22 bullets: a trait that frequently results in slightly broader wound channels and straighter penetration.

aarondhgraham · July 9, 2012, 03:27 PM

Fastest hollow point known to man,,,
Which would include CCI Stingers or Velocitors.

You simply want all the muzzle velocity you can get,,,
You will never get the advertised muzzle velocity from a 317,,,
But you might as well start with the hottest ammunition you can find.

I often carry a S&W Model 34,,,
I load it with CCI Stingers and feel just fine.

Or buy her a Bersa Thunder 22 and a Bersa Thunder 380,,,
Identical pistols with one to learn with and he other to carry for defense.

Aarond

.

oldgranpa · July 9, 2012, 04:14 PM

rem44m, please tell us about the trigger pull on the S&W 317 you got. I'm considering that for my wife too, as she has weak hands and can't rack slides on pistols and recoil bothers her.
og

jason_iowa · July 9, 2012, 04:37 PM

You can find some pretty low recoil 38s that will have a lighter trigger pull then a 22. I personally would never recommend carrying anything less then a 38. Like someone said learn functionality with a 22 and use the 38 for SD. She does not need to be an ace shooter she just need to be able to point it straight and pull the trigger.

Hope ya find something that works.

psyfly · July 9, 2012, 04:41 PM

I, too, am interested in your experience with the 317's trigger. I got one for my wife to carry on her walks through a rural neighborhood and it has one of the worst triggers I've ever experienced!

Will

SIGSHR · July 9, 2012, 05:09 PM

Again, beats fists, feet and foul language. Rather than look for a magic bullet I would concentrate on tactics. Charlie Askins defined a belly gun as one where "you pit it against your opponent's belly and pull the trigger!", Jeff Cooper advocated shooting for the eye sockets when trying to defend with a 22LR.

Ichiro · July 9, 2012, 06:13 PM

Stingers will spew a lot of noise, gas, and fire. Not necessarily a bad thing for an "eye gun."

Ed K · July 9, 2012, 06:25 PM

My wife has one she's comfortable with it and hits what she's shooting at I liked it so I got a 351PD 22Mag.
A gun has to be a extension of the shooter to be effective so carry what your comfortable wih not the newest biggest baddest supper hand cannon

Baba Louie · July 9, 2012, 07:23 PM

My 317 has a horrible DA pull that took a while to 'almost' master. 11 oz of gun with a 10lb trigger pull... keeping the sights aligned and steady... well, you do the math. It will take some time and practice to keep it on target and shooting precise (or close enough to count).

A 63 or 34 or a good old 18, a piece of cake compared to the little airlite.

IMO mind you.

How strong is your wifes trigger finger? Seriously. Conquer that and you're good to go. But it does take a bit of practice. Maybe a little frustration to overcome as well. Keep the targets close. Like 3 yds close at first. See how she does. If she likes it and will have fun shooting it you're golden.

Mine shoots most anything I stuff into it, but I do like CCIs mini mags and stingers.

Ichiro · July 9, 2012, 07:24 PM

Quote:

A gun has to be a extension of the shooter to be effective so carry what your comfortable wih not the newest biggest baddest supper hand cannon

So, don't trade it in for a Smith & Wesson 500 Magnum?

B.N.Real · July 9, 2012, 10:16 PM

Especially on a human being,i don't recommend buying the latest whiz bang super fast 22 bullets for self defense.

The 22 is a very small round anyway and if you find yourself shooting into a large man with a 22,you'll need enough penetration to reach his vitals.

22 hollowpoint rounds are known for just falling to pieces on impact-great for a squirrel or bird-very bad for a you trying to stop a bad guy from hurting or killing you.

I favor round nose copper plated rounds 40 grain bullets.

And it important that the gun is accurate with them too.

I once shot a snub nose 22 H&R revolver at seven feet double action from a paper target and missed the entire paper.

I would'nt buy your wife a Bersa 22 either-the Smith revolver is way more reliable and can be used without any safety thinking or slide racking.

Best of all,the round nose 22 rounds can be bought in bricks of 550 and are very cheap to shoot.

When she trains herself to shoot that Smith,she needs to drill just like she is defending herself with the gun.

None of this single action,trying to hit a target at fifteen yards nonsense.

Shoot the gun,double action,as many times as she need to to feel she repelled the threat.

I usually shoot double action three shots quick ( with a 22 revolver) and see where the group is.

The bottom line here is to actually hit where you are aiming.

And aim,usually not using only your sites but the ingrained body memory all your practice with the gun has told you where you will hit.

In the dark,at night,with some bad guy trying to get at you-you won't get the luxury of setting yourself up a sites aimed shot.

You'll be pulling the gun in a hurry,trying to maintain your shooting procedure while pumped to the gills with adrenalin and fear and trying to stop this guy from hurting you.

You have to shoot that revolver like you are living in that moment at the range to make sure you stop as fast as possible the attack that is coming.

On last note,a snub 38 special revolver of which Smith makes some great ones-see 442/642- are recognized as some of the finest for the purpose of self defense in this kind of scenario but mutiple shots with a 22 will definetely get the bad guys attention too-much better then just screaming in fear as he kills you.

ThomasT · July 9, 2012, 10:58 PM

If you want a 22 bullet that will almost always expand get the Remington Yellow Jackets. Back in the early 80s when I first got "into" guns I read every gun mag I could get my hands on. There were lots of articles on 22s for SD. I did the putty test and the water bottle test and the Yellow Jacket round always expanded. Even from the very small Iver Johnson TP-22 I stupidly sold.

Don't let people tell you a 22 is not a good gun. My uncle was a rather well known Ft Worth policeman and later an investigator in the DAs office and he has seen many shooting victims. He had a great deal of respect for the 22 round in any shape it came in. When I asked him about 22s he said, "those are bad mothers. If they don't kill you outright then you stay in the hospital for 6 months and then die of pneumonia".

A gun your wife will carry and is comfortable with is far better than a 38 or any other gun she is scared of. That being said look for an older J-frame in 32 long. I am a huge 32 fan and buy every decent, reasonably price 32 I run across. I handload so ammo cost me almost nothing and a 32 is a better round than the 22 with just a little more recoil.

But there is nothing wrong with a 22 ffor defense.

Viper225 · July 10, 2012, 12:01 AM

I have an LCR-22 that I have been firing quite a bit.
What I have discovered with it. With Stingers the brass is sticking harder than Bulk Pak in the chambers. You have to rap the ejector briskly to get the spent cases out.
My LCR-22 locks up solid on the first shot fired with Velocitors, and the cylinder will not rotate. NOT GOOD
I have not tried any Yellow Jackets so far. My guess is they should work ok also.

My advice is to shoot a box of your carry ammo and make sure you do not have any surprises when you need it to work. Velocitors may work fine in your revolver. Shoot a box and make sure before counting on them.

Practice with it a lot. The 2" barrel is hard to hit with when you are in a hurry if the target is very far off. I shot my LCR-22 in our Club Defensive Pistol Match Saturday in BUG Division. I was using Speed Bees speed loaders to reload on the clock. I beat my 442 Pro Moon Clip score with the LCR-22.
I have a Hi Viz Green Fiber Optic front sight on the LCR-22. I could locate the front sight easier on it than I could the Black front sight on the 442.

Speed Bees makes a Speed Loader for the 8 shot S&W J Frame 22's.

You can also carry Speed Strips for reloads. Get the Orange Tuff Products Model 1022 Quick Strips. Load your ammunition in Pairs skipping a shell between pairs for cylinder clearance. The Model 1022 will only hold 7 rounds loaded in this manner, however you can make a very respectful reload with it. This is what the Quick Strip looks like loaded for use with an 8 Shot J Frame. OOxOOxOOxO You need to leave the round out between pairs so that you have cylinder clearance to load 2 rounds. Try the Quick Strip and you will quickly understand why you need to leave a round out between pairs. I can make a faster reload on my LCR-22 with a Quick Strip than I can my J Frame 38 using Quick Strips.
You need the Orange Quick Strips so that when practicing reloading you can easily locate your Quick Strips on the ground.

I hope this information was of some help.

Bob

skoro · July 10, 2012, 10:15 AM

Quote:

I'm curious what type of 22lr ammo would be the best for self defense?

I don't carry a 22lr for SD and wouldn't recommend it, either. But it's far better than harsh words.

Something to consider...

That little revolver will be used close up and its short barrel will reduce the velocity of the hot loads with light bullets and that may drastically reduce their penetration. Aguila makes a 60gr 22lr load at modest velocity that just might be a good load for your usage. It's called "Subsonic Sniper" and usually abbreviated SSS. I've shot a some through my revolvers and at short ranges like you'd encounter in a SD situation, their accuracy is decent. They also seem to penetrate pretty well.

If I was using a 317 as a carry piece, I'd certainly run a few SSS rounds through to see how they performed in that gun.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 10, 2012, 10:37 AM

I had 317LS and hated the trigger. Sold it.

The idea of a 38 with lighter recoiling rounds isn't a bad idea. Better trigger. It also the case that a 32 HR Mag snubby would work and there are lighter recoiling rounds for it.

But - read www.corneredcat.com. Have the wife get training and choose her own gun. Might end up with a nice 9mm. My daughter much preferred a Glock to a revolver and she could rack it.

darkgael · July 10, 2012, 02:37 PM

I frequently put a 317 in my pocket when going for a walk. Easy to carry. Easy to use. I load standard velocity .22s. I chrono'd them a while back when comparing them to the 25 ACP. The two inch barrel left the 40 grain bullet with a MV of 790-800 fps. I have always intended to chrono some hyper vel rounds but haven't yet done so. Maybe someone else has. I have read that the HV rounds need a longer barrel to get optimal use from and may suffer in the two inch gun.
Don't know for sure that that is so.
Pete

youngunz4life · July 10, 2012, 02:47 PM

it is better than nothing and can be used if needbe

plom · July 10, 2012, 03:01 PM

few years ago we worked on a case in the subway. A guy showed a knife to a girl and asked her to follow him. She fired 3 shots in the chest of the guy who died on scene. The 3 shots were CCI STINGERS fired from a S&W 317...

youngunz4life · July 10, 2012, 05:07 PM

its stories like that one that epitimize(spelling or even used right

?) the reason why I choose to carry and/or have the option at all times. If she was in NYC what would she have done? Thx for the example plom

cajun47 · July 10, 2012, 05:30 PM

in my lcr 22, the agulia 40 gr flat nose interceptors penetrates boards twice as much as the 60 gr sniper subsonic.

July 9, 2012, 03:06 PM	#1
rem44m Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2011 Location: Utah Posts: 171	Smith and Wesson 22LR revolver for self defense. Before I get everyone all riled up about using the 22lr over something else I need to clarify this is for my wife who has a Sig P238 but never carries it because it is to expensive to practice with so she is not comfortable with the gun and has problems manipulating the safety (practice would help) but either way I can not get her to practice with it. She also does not like carrying something where it is "cocked" or the hammer is back so it leaves me to a small double action revolver that is very cheap to practice with. So I bought her a Smith and Wesson 317. I'm curious what type of 22lr ammo would be the best for self defense? __________________ I'd rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it. "If gun owners are as violent as anti-gunners said we are, there wouldn't be any anti's left"

July 9, 2012, 03:13 PM	#2
9mm1033 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2005 Location: A big city with far too many cars and people. Posts: 932	A fair question and you should get a ton of opinions. I really don't know what 22 ammo is best for SD, but I do know their are many six feet in the ground having been shot with a 22. Has your wife considered a light weight 38 revolver, similar to the M317? You can practice with the 22 and use the 38 round for SD. __________________ No one reads or cares what is written in ones signature box. So I'm not writing anything worth reading or remembering.

July 9, 2012, 03:25 PM	#3
idek Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2009 Posts: 903	If a .22 is all I had, I'd load it with CCI Velocitors. They seem to offer the best combination of mass, velocity, and reliability as .22 ammo goes. I often see people recommend CCI Stingers, but in my own tests in water jugs (out of a 4" Buckmark), neither bullet expanded but the Velocitors penetrated much better (Stingers stopped in the 3rd jug. Velocitors stopped in the 5th). An unexpanded Velocitor also also has a blunter, broader tip than Stingers, MiniMags, or most other .22 bullets: a trait that frequently results in slightly broader wound channels and straighter penetration. Last edited by idek; July 9, 2012 at 03:36 PM.

July 9, 2012, 03:27 PM	#4
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Fastest hollow point known to man,,, Fastest hollow point known to man,,, Which would include CCI Stingers or Velocitors. You simply want all the muzzle velocity you can get,,, You will never get the advertised muzzle velocity from a 317,,, But you might as well start with the hottest ammunition you can find. I often carry a S&W Model 34,,, I load it with CCI Stingers and feel just fine. Or buy her a Bersa Thunder 22 and a Bersa Thunder 380,,, Identical pistols with one to learn with and he other to carry for defense. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

July 9, 2012, 04:41 PM	#7
psyfly Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 932	I, too, am interested in your experience with the 317's trigger. I got one for my wife to carry on her walks through a rural neighborhood and it has one of the worst triggers I've ever experienced! Will __________________ Show me the data

July 9, 2012, 04:14 PM	#5
oldgranpa Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 209	rem44m, please tell us about the trigger pull on the S&W 317 you got. I'm considering that for my wife too, as she has weak hands and can't rack slides on pistols and recoil bothers her. og

July 9, 2012, 04:37 PM	#6
jason_iowa Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 686	You can find some pretty low recoil 38s that will have a lighter trigger pull then a 22. I personally would never recommend carrying anything less then a 38. Like someone said learn functionality with a 22 and use the 38 for SD. She does not need to be an ace shooter she just need to be able to point it straight and pull the trigger. Hope ya find something that works.

July 9, 2012, 05:09 PM	#8
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Again, beats fists, feet and foul language. Rather than look for a magic bullet I would concentrate on tactics. Charlie Askins defined a belly gun as one where "you pit it against your opponent's belly and pull the trigger!", Jeff Cooper advocated shooting for the eye sockets when trying to defend with a 22LR.

July 9, 2012, 06:13 PM	#9
Ichiro Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 888	Stingers will spew a lot of noise, gas, and fire. Not necessarily a bad thing for an "eye gun."

July 9, 2012, 06:25 PM	#10
Ed K Member Join Date: November 7, 2008 Posts: 88	My wife has one she's comfortable with it and hits what she's shooting at I liked it so I got a 351PD 22Mag. A gun has to be a extension of the shooter to be effective so carry what your comfortable wih not the newest biggest baddest supper hand cannon

July 9, 2012, 07:23 PM	#11
Baba Louie Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2001 Posts: 1,552	My 317 has a horrible DA pull that took a while to 'almost' master. 11 oz of gun with a 10lb trigger pull... keeping the sights aligned and steady... well, you do the math. It will take some time and practice to keep it on target and shooting precise (or close enough to count). A 63 or 34 or a good old 18, a piece of cake compared to the little airlite. IMO mind you. How strong is your wifes trigger finger? Seriously. Conquer that and you're good to go. But it does take a bit of practice. Maybe a little frustration to overcome as well. Keep the targets close. Like 3 yds close at first. See how she does. If she likes it and will have fun shooting it you're golden. Mine shoots most anything I stuff into it, but I do like CCIs mini mags and stingers. __________________ A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address

July 9, 2012, 10:16 PM	#13
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	Especially on a human being,i don't recommend buying the latest whiz bang super fast 22 bullets for self defense. The 22 is a very small round anyway and if you find yourself shooting into a large man with a 22,you'll need enough penetration to reach his vitals. 22 hollowpoint rounds are known for just falling to pieces on impact-great for a squirrel or bird-very bad for a you trying to stop a bad guy from hurting or killing you. I favor round nose copper plated rounds 40 grain bullets. And it important that the gun is accurate with them too. I once shot a snub nose 22 H&R revolver at seven feet double action from a paper target and missed the entire paper. I would'nt buy your wife a Bersa 22 either-the Smith revolver is way more reliable and can be used without any safety thinking or slide racking. Best of all,the round nose 22 rounds can be bought in bricks of 550 and are very cheap to shoot. When she trains herself to shoot that Smith,she needs to drill just like she is defending herself with the gun. None of this single action,trying to hit a target at fifteen yards nonsense. Shoot the gun,double action,as many times as she need to to feel she repelled the threat. I usually shoot double action three shots quick ( with a 22 revolver) and see where the group is. The bottom line here is to actually hit where you are aiming. And aim,usually not using only your sites but the ingrained body memory all your practice with the gun has told you where you will hit. In the dark,at night,with some bad guy trying to get at you-you won't get the luxury of setting yourself up a sites aimed shot. You'll be pulling the gun in a hurry,trying to maintain your shooting procedure while pumped to the gills with adrenalin and fear and trying to stop this guy from hurting you. You have to shoot that revolver like you are living in that moment at the range to make sure you stop as fast as possible the attack that is coming. On last note,a snub 38 special revolver of which Smith makes some great ones-see 442/642- are recognized as some of the finest for the purpose of self defense in this kind of scenario but mutiple shots with a 22 will definetely get the bad guys attention too-much better then just screaming in fear as he kills you.

July 9, 2012, 10:58 PM	#14
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	If you want a 22 bullet that will almost always expand get the Remington Yellow Jackets. Back in the early 80s when I first got "into" guns I read every gun mag I could get my hands on. There were lots of articles on 22s for SD. I did the putty test and the water bottle test and the Yellow Jacket round always expanded. Even from the very small Iver Johnson TP-22 I stupidly sold. Don't let people tell you a 22 is not a good gun. My uncle was a rather well known Ft Worth policeman and later an investigator in the DAs office and he has seen many shooting victims. He had a great deal of respect for the 22 round in any shape it came in. When I asked him about 22s he said, "those are bad mothers. If they don't kill you outright then you stay in the hospital for 6 months and then die of pneumonia". A gun your wife will carry and is comfortable with is far better than a 38 or any other gun she is scared of. That being said look for an older J-frame in 32 long. I am a huge 32 fan and buy every decent, reasonably price 32 I run across. I handload so ammo cost me almost nothing and a 32 is a better round than the 22 with just a little more recoil. But there is nothing wrong with a 22 ffor defense.

July 10, 2012, 12:01 AM	#15
Viper225 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: SC Missouri Posts: 663	I have an LCR-22 that I have been firing quite a bit. What I have discovered with it. With Stingers the brass is sticking harder than Bulk Pak in the chambers. You have to rap the ejector briskly to get the spent cases out. My LCR-22 locks up solid on the first shot fired with Velocitors, and the cylinder will not rotate. NOT GOOD I have not tried any Yellow Jackets so far. My guess is they should work ok also. My advice is to shoot a box of your carry ammo and make sure you do not have any surprises when you need it to work. Velocitors may work fine in your revolver. Shoot a box and make sure before counting on them. Practice with it a lot. The 2" barrel is hard to hit with when you are in a hurry if the target is very far off. I shot my LCR-22 in our Club Defensive Pistol Match Saturday in BUG Division. I was using Speed Bees speed loaders to reload on the clock. I beat my 442 Pro Moon Clip score with the LCR-22. I have a Hi Viz Green Fiber Optic front sight on the LCR-22. I could locate the front sight easier on it than I could the Black front sight on the 442. Speed Bees makes a Speed Loader for the 8 shot S&W J Frame 22's. You can also carry Speed Strips for reloads. Get the Orange Tuff Products Model 1022 Quick Strips. Load your ammunition in Pairs skipping a shell between pairs for cylinder clearance. The Model 1022 will only hold 7 rounds loaded in this manner, however you can make a very respectful reload with it. This is what the Quick Strip looks like loaded for use with an 8 Shot J Frame. OOxOOxOOxO You need to leave the round out between pairs so that you have cylinder clearance to load 2 rounds. Try the Quick Strip and you will quickly understand why you need to leave a round out between pairs. I can make a faster reload on my LCR-22 with a Quick Strip than I can my J Frame 38 using Quick Strips. You need the Orange Quick Strips so that when practicing reloading you can easily locate your Quick Strips on the ground. I hope this information was of some help. Bob Last edited by Viper225; July 10, 2012 at 12:08 AM.

July 10, 2012, 10:37 AM	#17
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I had 317LS and hated the trigger. Sold it. The idea of a 38 with lighter recoiling rounds isn't a bad idea. Better trigger. It also the case that a 32 HR Mag snubby would work and there are lighter recoiling rounds for it. But - read www.corneredcat.com. Have the wife get training and choose her own gun. Might end up with a nice 9mm. My daughter much preferred a Glock to a revolver and she could rack it. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 10, 2012, 02:37 PM	#18
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	317 I frequently put a 317 in my pocket when going for a walk. Easy to carry. Easy to use. I load standard velocity .22s. I chrono'd them a while back when comparing them to the 25 ACP. The two inch barrel left the 40 grain bullet with a MV of 790-800 fps. I have always intended to chrono some hyper vel rounds but haven't yet done so. Maybe someone else has. I have read that the HV rounds need a longer barrel to get optimal use from and may suffer in the two inch gun. Don't know for sure that that is so. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

July 10, 2012, 02:47 PM	#19
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	OP it is better than nothing and can be used if needbe __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

July 10, 2012, 03:01 PM	#20
plom Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 582	few years ago we worked on a case in the subway. A guy showed a knife to a girl and asked her to follow him. She fired 3 shots in the chest of the guy who died on scene. The 3 shots were CCI STINGERS fired from a S&W 317... __________________ DUX BELLORUM

July 10, 2012, 05:07 PM	#21
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	its stories like that one that epitimize(spelling or even used right?) the reason why I choose to carry and/or have the option at all times. If she was in NYC what would she have done? Thx for the example plom __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

July 10, 2012, 05:30 PM	#22
cajun47 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: swamp people Posts: 539	in my lcr 22, the agulia 40 gr flat nose interceptors penetrates boards twice as much as the 60 gr sniper subsonic.