Shooting a 9mm Nato out of a 38 Super Pistol

PACraftsman · November 2, 2016, 07:27 PM

Help ??? I was reading some threads late over the weekend and found some people stating that you could shoot a 9mm Nato round out of a stock 38 Super Pistol. They likened the compatibility to a 38 special/357 magnum or 44 special/44 magnum relationship.

Is this true? Will a 38 super pistol run on 9mm ???

tdocz · November 2, 2016, 07:35 PM

No. Both 9mm NATO and 38 Super have rimless cases and headspace on the mouth of the case not the rim. The 38 special and 357 Magnum headspace on the rim. Therefore, the the shorter 9mm NATO would sit in too deep in the bullet chamber. Upon firing, the case would literally accelerate and slam into the slide. Besides, the 9mm and 38 Super have different rim dimensions which would affect extraction.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Mobuck · November 2, 2016, 07:49 PM

IF(and that's a good sized if) you hook the extractor over the 9mm case manually and then chamber the round, the extractor might hold the case snug enough against the firing pin strike to fire it. The empty might even the ejected but this scenario won't continue to cycle w/o hand feeding rounds under the extractor.
Keep in mind the almost universal stamping on the barrel "use only ammunition specifically designed for this firearm".

**Aguila Blanca** · November 2, 2016, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdocz

No. Both 9mm NATO and 38 Super have rimless cases and headspace on the mouth of the case not the rim.

This is incorrect. The 9mm NATO is rimless, but it has a tapered case. The .38 Super has a small rim (it is sometimes referred to as "semi-rimmed"). Old .38 Super pistols headspaced on the rim, but newer ones do headspace on the case mouth.

The .38 Super case is not tapered. A 9mm NATA case is .391" at the base and tapers to .380" at the mouth. A .38 Super case is .384" for the full length. A 9mm NATA round shouldn't be able to chamber in a .38 Super barrel.

TMD · November 2, 2016, 08:22 PM

Quote:

No. Both 9mm NATO and 38 Super have rimless cases and headspace on the mouth of the case not the rim. The 38 special and 357 Magnum headspace on the rim. Therefore, the the shorter 9mm NATO would sit in too deep in the bullet chamber. Upon firing, the case would literally accelerate and slam into the slide. Besides, the 9mm and 38 Super have different rim dimensions which would affect extraction.

Completely incorrect statement on so many levels.

jmr40 · November 2, 2016, 08:42 PM

Based on specs listed in my loading manuals it appears there are enough differences that it shouldn't work. But if the chamber tolerances on a 38 Super are loose enough some individual guns might actually work with both.

Lots of guys successfully shoot 40S&W from 10mm guns. I've tried it enough to say it works. But I'd only use in in a dire emergency where I had a 10mm pistol and only 40 S&W ammo.

Oysterboy · November 2, 2016, 09:45 PM

Got my calipers out

Rim-groove-above groove-top

9mm=0.391-0.337-0.385-0.373

38su=0.401-0.343-0.380-0.380

HisSoldier · November 2, 2016, 10:35 PM

I suspect that if it did fire it would do so by "chambering" from the extractor hook, not good.
I've done it myself, but only by accident. (Not 9MM/38 Super though, .380 in 9mm I think, the fired cases looked a bit funny.)

By actual measurement I get rim diameter 38 Super .4035" and 9mm ,3875", case length 38 Super .888" and 9mm .7375", so it's .1505" shorter, and it's known in some circles that most extractors won't take a steady diet of that kind of abuse.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 2, 2016, 11:02 PM

.38 Super, 9mm Parabellum, and .380 ACP all use (essentially) the same diameter bullets, but the cases (and chambers) are all different. I have played around with the notion of a 1911 in .380 ACP -- an idea I've seen discussed on the forum at http://forum.m1911.org/ . I found that trying to shoot .380 ACP from a 9mm barrel (headspacing on the extractor, of course) just didn't work. The 9mm chamber was so much larger that too much energy was lost to blow-by. The bullets left the muzzle, but the slide wouldn't cycle.

The .38 Super chamber is smaller, so I tried that next -- again headspacing on the extractor. Same result. It came closer to cycling, but the slide wouldn't cycle until I cut down the recoil spring to something like 8 pounds. Brass was still deformed after firing, but not so badly it couldn't be resized.

In the end, I used a 9mm barrel and loaded 9mm brass using 95-grain bullets and a light charge to generate .380 ACP velocities. That allowed me to decide what recoil spring would work, but there's just no source for a .380 ACP 1911 barrel so, like the guy on M1911.org, I gave up.

It does show that you can shoot using the extractor to "headspace" the cartridge. It's not unsafe, but it's hard on the extractor and it's not a recommended practice. But you can't shoot a round that's too fat to go into the chamber, and the tapered 9mm cartridge shouldn't fit all the way into a .38 Super chamber.

Jim Watson · November 2, 2016, 11:33 PM

I wouldn't try it unless the Zombies were real bad.

I developed a 9mm Makarov conversion for 9mm P 1911oid.
Like Aquila, I set it up with light 9mm P loads to be sure it would function.
I dropped the project when the batch of heavy bullet Mak I was prepared for dried up.

tipoc · November 3, 2016, 01:52 AM

In addition to the issues Aguila pointed out there would also be feed problems unless you got a dedicated 9mm magazine for the gun (due to the shorter length of the 9mm round).

Without too much trouble you can get a 9mm barrel for the gun and proper mags and set up a switch barrel gun.

tipoc

g.willikers · November 3, 2016, 08:46 AM

When it comes to guns, never say never is a good philosophy to follow.
One day I was at our club range practicing with a .38 super 70 series Colt steel Commander.
There was another fellow with the same type gun there.
After we were shooting awhile, I asked if he reloaded and he said no, take all the cases.
As I was picking them up, I noticed he was actually shooting 9mm, not .38 super in his.
He said he'd been doing it for a long time as .38 super ammo was hard to find and too expensive.
So, I tried it a mag worth.
It shot just fine, too.

tipoc · November 3, 2016, 11:04 AM

It would be foolish to say that it can't be done at all. But it is an invitation to issues and problems with reliability.

Fact is most semis fire because the extractor holds the round in place enough for the firing pin to ignite the primer.

A 9mm mag would help but...

Why?

tipoc

Bill DeShivs · November 3, 2016, 12:05 PM

It most certainly can be done. The rounds must be fed from a magazine, so the extractor holds them in place.

Some guns, especially 1911-types will even fire 9mm that is dropped into the chamber by hand. The firing pin will travel far enough to ignite 9mm that is deep in the Super chamber. This creates excessive headspace (very excessive!)
Don't ever do this!

RickB · November 3, 2016, 01:23 PM

Is this a zombie apocalypse deal, where you have one gun, a Super, and one box of cartridges, 9mm? In that case, go for it! You have no choice.
Under any other circumstances, it doesn't make any sense.
Buy cartridges that fit the gun.
That does remind me of the time I walked into a sporting goods store and asked the guy at the gun counter for a box of .38 Super.
He went to the ammo shelves and returned with a box of .38 Special, saying, "It fits in all .38s, that's why it's special".

T. O'Heir · November 3, 2016, 01:32 PM

He was actually shooting 9mm with zero headspace. The 9mm shouldn't fit in a .38's chamber anyway. That .391" 9mm case body vs the .384" case body of the Super should prevent chambering.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 3, 2016, 02:04 PM

Well, after all this discussion I had to find out for myself.

I took some Hornady 9mm ammo and did a "plunk" test. In a Colt .38 Super, the 9mm round dropped maybe 2/3 of the way into the chamber. From that point, thumb pressure pushed it in to the zero headspace position, but I don't think it would feed well. Possibly -- I didn't try it. (I don't like messing with live ammo in live guns on the workbench.)

I then grabbed a no-name .38 Super barrel out of my box of parts. With that barrel, the 9mm round did drop right in, well beyond the zero headspace point (which is where it would be held by the extractor).

So I guess it can be done -- unless it can't. It would seem to depend on the tolerances of the particular pistol and the particular ammunition.

SIGSHR · November 3, 2016, 02:13 PM

IMHO it would be simpler to get a 9MMP barrel. I read an article in Guns and Ammo some years ago, the author found that to fire 9MMP out of a 38 super all he need was a new barrel and magazine.

PACraftsman · November 3, 2016, 02:57 PM

Thanks everyone. I thought it was wrong but just didn't have the specific technical knowledge to contradict them.

SIGSHR · November 3, 2016, 03:16 PM

IMHO people have gotten a little too enamored of that Astra 600 that could fire a variety of a cartridges and they tend to forget the differences between semiautos and revolvers. Say $100 for a second barre, $25 for a magazine and 5 minutes work to change barrels-?

g.willikers · November 4, 2016, 09:56 AM

Quote:

It would seem to depend on the tolerances of the particular pistol and the particular ammunition.

Boy, ain't that the truth.
I once had a 9mm pistol that had the best accuracy and feeding when using .38 super dies with oversized lead bullets.
Go figure.
It took a while to figure that one out.
Must have had a weird barrel.
They're out there.

Jim Watson · November 4, 2016, 10:50 AM

Quote:

IMHO people have gotten a little too enamored of that Astra 400 that could fire a variety of a cartridges

Fixed that for you. The Astra 600 was the dedicated 9mm Para for a German contract.

The Astra 400 was chambered for 9mm Largo, 9x23, based on the 9mm Bergman Bayard. A lot of guns but little ammo came in during the Golden Age of Surplus, the late 1950s and 1960s before GCA 1968. They were touted as the "any 9mm" pistol. They would readily shoot 9mm Steyr which was more common in ammo than guns.

A lot of Spanish guns were marked 9mm/.38 meaning 9mm Largo or .38 Auto. I am sure a lot of Astras, Stars, and Llamas were beat up with .38 Super.

They would shoot 9mm P ok IF the round came up under the extractor and/or if the round seated on the case/chamber taper.
Maj. Geo. C. Nonte demonstrated what would happen if it didn't. The gun has unrestricted firing pin protrusion like a 1911 and a 9mm P in front of the extractor would still fire. The resulting blown primer and slamback of the floating cartridge case were exciting.

Anecdote: My Dad was once in a store, no doubt picking up ammo for teenage me, when the dealer told a customer that he did not have the proper ammo but had something "just as good" for his pistol. "Here, let me show you." Bang! as he dumped a bullet into the floor between the customer's feet.
I wonder if that were not an Astra.

James K · November 4, 2016, 01:29 PM

A lot of misunderstanding on this is due to two factors - 1) 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger) ammo has been loaded in almost every even moderately industrialized country in the world, with dubious specifications, and 2) 9mm Parabellum pistols, rifles and submachineguns have been made in many of those countries, often with specs based mostly on guesswork and prayer.

Even in the U.S., measurements of 9mm Parabellum cartridges made by Remington and Winchester will show some interesting differences.

Jim

P5 Guy · November 5, 2016, 12:05 PM

In "Hatcher's Notebook" there are some comments on shooting other than specified by the maker ammunition. I'll not quote it here but some will find the notes of interest.

tipoc · November 5, 2016, 06:10 PM

Quote:

In "Hatcher's Notebook" there are some comments on shooting other than specified by the maker ammunition. I'll not quote it here but some will find the notes of interest.

chapter?

tipoc

November 2, 2016, 07:27 PM	#1
PACraftsman Member Join Date: August 28, 2016 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 87	Shooting a 9mm Nato out of a 38 Super Pistol Help ??? I was reading some threads late over the weekend and found some people stating that you could shoot a 9mm Nato round out of a stock 38 Super Pistol. They likened the compatibility to a 38 special/357 magnum or 44 special/44 magnum relationship. Is this true? Will a 38 super pistol run on 9mm ???

November 2, 2016, 10:35 PM	#8
HisSoldier Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2007 Location: Oregoncoast Posts: 1,793	I suspect that if it did fire it would do so by "chambering" from the extractor hook, not good. I've done it myself, but only by accident. (Not 9MM/38 Super though, .380 in 9mm I think, the fired cases looked a bit funny.) By actual measurement I get rim diameter 38 Super .4035" and 9mm ,3875", case length 38 Super .888" and 9mm .7375", so it's .1505" shorter, and it's known in some circles that most extractors won't take a steady diet of that kind of abuse. __________________ CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.

November 3, 2016, 08:46 AM	#12
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	When it comes to guns, never say never is a good philosophy to follow. One day I was at our club range practicing with a .38 super 70 series Colt steel Commander. There was another fellow with the same type gun there. After we were shooting awhile, I asked if he reloaded and he said no, take all the cases. As I was picking them up, I noticed he was actually shooting 9mm, not .38 super in his. He said he'd been doing it for a long time as .38 super ammo was hard to find and too expensive. So, I tried it a mag worth. It shot just fine, too. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 3, 2016, 12:05 PM	#14
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	It most certainly can be done. The rounds must be fed from a magazine, so the extractor holds them in place. Some guns, especially 1911-types will even fire 9mm that is dropped into the chamber by hand. The firing pin will travel far enough to ignite 9mm that is deep in the Super chamber. This creates excessive headspace (very excessive!) Don't ever do this! __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 3, 2016, 01:23 PM	#15
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Is this a zombie apocalypse deal, where you have one gun, a Super, and one box of cartridges, 9mm? In that case, go for it! You have no choice. Under any other circumstances, it doesn't make any sense. Buy cartridges that fit the gun. That does remind me of the time I walked into a sporting goods store and asked the guy at the gun counter for a box of .38 Super. He went to the ammo shelves and returned with a box of .38 Special, saying, "It fits in all .38s, that's why it's special". __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

November 2, 2016, 07:35 PM	#2
tdocz Member Join Date: November 30, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 23	No. Both 9mm NATO and 38 Super have rimless cases and headspace on the mouth of the case not the rim. The 38 special and 357 Magnum headspace on the rim. Therefore, the the shorter 9mm NATO would sit in too deep in the bullet chamber. Upon firing, the case would literally accelerate and slam into the slide. Besides, the 9mm and 38 Super have different rim dimensions which would affect extraction. Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

November 2, 2016, 07:49 PM	#3
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	IF(and that's a good sized if) you hook the extractor over the 9mm case manually and then chamber the round, the extractor might hold the case snug enough against the firing pin strike to fire it. The empty might even the ejected but this scenario won't continue to cycle w/o hand feeding rounds under the extractor. Keep in mind the almost universal stamping on the barrel "use only ammunition specifically designed for this firearm".

November 2, 2016, 08:42 PM	#6
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Based on specs listed in my loading manuals it appears there are enough differences that it shouldn't work. But if the chamber tolerances on a 38 Super are loose enough some individual guns might actually work with both. Lots of guys successfully shoot 40S&W from 10mm guns. I've tried it enough to say it works. But I'd only use in in a dire emergency where I had a 10mm pistol and only 40 S&W ammo.

November 2, 2016, 09:45 PM	#7
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	Got my calipers out Rim-groove-above groove-top 9mm=0.391-0.337-0.385-0.373 38su=0.401-0.343-0.380-0.380

November 2, 2016, 11:02 PM	#9
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	.38 Super, 9mm Parabellum, and .380 ACP all use (essentially) the same diameter bullets, but the cases (and chambers) are all different. I have played around with the notion of a 1911 in .380 ACP -- an idea I've seen discussed on the forum at http://forum.m1911.org/ . I found that trying to shoot .380 ACP from a 9mm barrel (headspacing on the extractor, of course) just didn't work. The 9mm chamber was so much larger that too much energy was lost to blow-by. The bullets left the muzzle, but the slide wouldn't cycle. The .38 Super chamber is smaller, so I tried that next -- again headspacing on the extractor. Same result. It came closer to cycling, but the slide wouldn't cycle until I cut down the recoil spring to something like 8 pounds. Brass was still deformed after firing, but not so badly it couldn't be resized. In the end, I used a 9mm barrel and loaded 9mm brass using 95-grain bullets and a light charge to generate .380 ACP velocities. That allowed me to decide what recoil spring would work, but there's just no source for a .380 ACP 1911 barrel so, like the guy on M1911.org, I gave up. It does show that you can shoot using the extractor to "headspace" the cartridge. It's not unsafe, but it's hard on the extractor and it's not a recommended practice. But you can't shoot a round that's too fat to go into the chamber, and the tapered 9mm cartridge shouldn't fit all the way into a .38 Super chamber.

November 2, 2016, 11:33 PM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I wouldn't try it unless the Zombies were real bad. I developed a 9mm Makarov conversion for 9mm P 1911oid. Like Aquila, I set it up with light 9mm P loads to be sure it would function. I dropped the project when the batch of heavy bullet Mak I was prepared for dried up.

November 3, 2016, 01:52 AM	#11
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	In addition to the issues Aguila pointed out there would also be feed problems unless you got a dedicated 9mm magazine for the gun (due to the shorter length of the 9mm round). Without too much trouble you can get a 9mm barrel for the gun and proper mags and set up a switch barrel gun. tipoc

November 3, 2016, 11:04 AM	#13
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	It would be foolish to say that it can't be done at all. But it is an invitation to issues and problems with reliability. Fact is most semis fire because the extractor holds the round in place enough for the firing pin to ignite the primer. A 9mm mag would help but... Why? tipoc

November 3, 2016, 01:32 PM	#16
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	He was actually shooting 9mm with zero headspace. The 9mm shouldn't fit in a .38's chamber anyway. That .391" 9mm case body vs the .384" case body of the Super should prevent chambering. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

November 3, 2016, 02:04 PM	#17
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	Well, after all this discussion I had to find out for myself. I took some Hornady 9mm ammo and did a "plunk" test. In a Colt .38 Super, the 9mm round dropped maybe 2/3 of the way into the chamber. From that point, thumb pressure pushed it in to the zero headspace position, but I don't think it would feed well. Possibly -- I didn't try it. (I don't like messing with live ammo in live guns on the workbench.) I then grabbed a no-name .38 Super barrel out of my box of parts. With that barrel, the 9mm round did drop right in, well beyond the zero headspace point (which is where it would be held by the extractor). So I guess it can be done -- unless it can't. It would seem to depend on the tolerances of the particular pistol and the particular ammunition.

November 3, 2016, 02:13 PM	#18
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	IMHO it would be simpler to get a 9MMP barrel. I read an article in Guns and Ammo some years ago, the author found that to fire 9MMP out of a 38 super all he need was a new barrel and magazine.

November 3, 2016, 02:57 PM	#19
PACraftsman Member Join Date: August 28, 2016 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 87	Thanks everyone. I thought it was wrong but just didn't have the specific technical knowledge to contradict them.

November 3, 2016, 03:16 PM	#20
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	IMHO people have gotten a little too enamored of that Astra 600 that could fire a variety of a cartridges and they tend to forget the differences between semiautos and revolvers. Say $100 for a second barre, $25 for a magazine and 5 minutes work to change barrels-?

November 4, 2016, 01:29 PM	#23
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	A lot of misunderstanding on this is due to two factors - 1) 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger) ammo has been loaded in almost every even moderately industrialized country in the world, with dubious specifications, and 2) 9mm Parabellum pistols, rifles and submachineguns have been made in many of those countries, often with specs based mostly on guesswork and prayer. Even in the U.S., measurements of 9mm Parabellum cartridges made by Remington and Winchester will show some interesting differences. Jim

November 5, 2016, 12:05 PM	#24
P5 Guy Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 1,804	In "Hatcher's Notebook" there are some comments on shooting other than specified by the maker ammunition. I'll not quote it here but some will find the notes of interest.