Scenario: Subway

Stephanie Plum · July 7, 2005, 10:44 AM

You're on a subway train, carrying concealed, and notice the guy sitting across from you is wearing a bulky jacket concealing what may be a bomb strapped to his chest. He's starting to act nervous, and the train is between stations--what do you do?

Avizpls · July 7, 2005, 10:56 AM

Wow. Could anything be any less appropriate right now?

Nio · July 7, 2005, 11:44 AM

Nio

Edited for callous remarks in light of today’ bombing in the UK.

Denny

ATW525 · July 7, 2005, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Wow. Could anything be any less appropriate right now?

I fail to see how it's inappropriate. Most everybody who keeps with the news is aware of the bombings in London, and DHS has raised the threat level here in the US for mass transit systems in response to the very real threat of copy cat attacks. For CHL holders who ride mass transit systems, this is potentially a situation they may very well have to face someday. Should we all stick our heads in the sand in the name of political correctness and pretend nobody's going to ever bomb our train or our bus?

racinstylez · July 7, 2005, 12:32 PM

I thought the bombs in UK were like in trash bins and mounted to the buses? No suicide bombers, but if a guy is willing to blow himself up I would get off that train as fast and hell and notify the police!

Eghad · July 7, 2005, 12:35 PM

Hope that it is not set with a dead man switch.

Personally I would head to another car to find somewhere I could call the police without panicing anybody. If the guy has a switch and you pull your pistol.... *Ka-boom* has a good chance of happening. The reason for a CCW is to defend yourself and others who are thretened with deadly force. I would say the odds are pretty much in the suicide bombers favor. If you pull your gun and he sets the bomb of and everybody dies...then you have not sucessfully done what a CCW is for. Now if the Police can get trained individuals who the bomber might not see and take him out before he knows he is dead then its win-win.

Topthis · July 7, 2005, 12:42 PM

OH...I would pull out my piece and pistol whip him, then demand that he get on his stomach and place his hands behind his head!! Then I may just put a round in his leg, y'know...just for fun. Afterwards, I would start beating and kicking the crap outta him and ask the rest of the subway patrons to join in, we could even sing the Star Spangled Banner while doing so...then, after he no longer responded, I would then check beneath his oversized jacket...only to find a dozen roses and a diamond ring he was hiding, while on his way to propose to his fiance (which would account for his nervous behaviour)!!!!
Uh, yeah people...lets not start getting paranoid and scared to live life.

Capt. Charlie · July 7, 2005, 12:46 PM

"He who runs away, lives to fight another day".

You're outmatched and outgunned. Get the hell out of there and call 911. Suicide bombers have a habit of making themselves go boom the instant they're made.

Twycross · July 7, 2005, 12:52 PM

I don't think there is much you can do, besides getting off the subway. Until you are absolutely sure is is a bomb, you have little to no justification for drawing on him. Even if you are sure it is a bomb, then it is just a race to see whether you can draw and kill him before he can flip his switch. And, as has been pointed out by others, just having a bulky jacket does not mean there is a bomb. It could be any number of things, including a ill-fitting jacket that poofs out in front.

Garand Illusion · July 7, 2005, 01:01 PM

It's damn near impossible to defend against bombers. Israel has tried, and has had only VERY limited success.

I was at Mt. Rushmore over the 4th, and was amazed at the security (haven't been there since the 70's when I was a kid). They had metal detectors and a guy confronting people before they parked making sure they had not "guns or bombs" in the car (hopefully terrorists would be honest enough to answer that one truthfully). Also had large numbers of armed rangers circulating everywhere.

But as I was standing in line to go through the metal detector, I kept thinking how dumb it really was. If I was a suicide bomber, I'd just get in that tightly packed line for the detectors and when I got near the front ... *BOOM*.

And if it was a coordinated attack, that would cause pandemonium and plenty of chances for my suicide bombing buddies to do the same.

In the end, all you can do is "win" the war on terrorism and make a world that doesn't breed terrorists. That seems to be kind of difficult, though ...

I feel horrible for the UK and London, but I am interested if this bloody assault will make them more resolved to fight terrorists (which is what happens in the US) or commit them to changing out the government and disengaging from the rest of the world (like Spain).

PythonGuy · July 7, 2005, 01:36 PM

You have a CCW for personal defense, not civil defense you do not need to detour into Police territory.

Stephanie Plum · July 7, 2005, 03:23 PM

Let's change the scenario a little to this:

You're on a subway train, carrying concealed, and notice a guy sitting across from you wearing a bulky jacket. He moves slightly, and through an opening in the jacket you can see rows of what looks like sticks of dynamite strapped to his chest. He's starting to act nervous, and the train is between stations--what do you do?

ATW525 · July 7, 2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

You're on a subway train, carrying concealed, and notice a guy sitting across from you wearing a bulky jacket. He moves slightly, and through an opening in the jacket you can see rows of what looks like sticks of dynamite strapped to his chest. He's starting to act nervous, and the train is between stations--what do you do?

Put a bullet in his head. If somebody is walking around with stuff that looks like dynamite strapped to thier chest I'm not going to take the time to ask, "Hey buddy, are those just highway flares or are you a suicide bomber?" If it turns out he was just carrying a dozen roses in individually package tubes that look like dynamite... well... it sucks to be him.

jburtonpdx · July 7, 2005, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Let's change the scenario a little to this:

You're on a subway train, carrying concealed, and notice a guy sitting across from you wearing a bulky jacket. He moves slightly, and through an opening in the jacket you can see rows of what looks like sticks of dynamite strapped to his chest. He's starting to act nervous, and the train is between stations--what do you do?

Thank god I dont ride the subway and wake up from that nightmare....

Now if I truly was in that situation, I would probably make my way to the furthest away part of the train I could get to, just as another poster has stated, then make "the phone call", and try to find something that may act somewhat as a shield.

Other then that I would keep my mouth shut - the pannic that would occur if the crowd was notified would certainly encourage the BG to make bomb go boom...

AttackTurtle · July 7, 2005, 03:50 PM

The only way I would act to defend myself or others would be if I saw the bomb, I was not able to get away, and I was certain of the individuals intentions.
I would have to be 100% sure I was gonna die.

racinstylez · July 7, 2005, 03:58 PM

Mannlicher · July 7, 2005, 05:26 PM

the only practical thing to do here, is the classic "bend over and .........."

or, (gee I hope this does not offend a peaceful muslim)
grab your bible, and study for the final exam.

stephen426 · July 7, 2005, 05:40 PM

We live in scary times, but we must show discipline and restraint before we use force. Like Topthis said, there could be a multitude of reasons the person is wearing a bulky jacket. Now if he is wearing a bulky jacket in Miami and he looked like he had a bomb strapped to him, hes getting one in the head. I know that we want to protect the public, but the public also includes that person that may or may NOT be carrying a bomb.

If I really saw a bomb, I guess I would have no choice but to shoot. If I got off and called the cops, the terrorist would blow himself up, along with everyone else when the cops showed up.

Tough scanario!

ATW525 · July 7, 2005, 06:06 PM

I think the best thing you can do if you don't see a bomb is to simply keep an eye on him for anything suspiscious that might indicate he's trying to detonate a device. Of course there's always hope that he'll want to leave this world with some parting words such as "Allah akbar!" (which I believe roughly translates into "Fill me full of lead").

stephen426 · July 7, 2005, 08:08 PM

ATW525,

Keeping an eye on him would also mean risking your own hide. I think inaction is the worst possible choice. Either get off at the next stop and notify authorities or bust a cap in him if you are certain he is carrying a bomb. I for one would not sit around waiting for him to push the detonator!

Dwight55 · July 7, 2005, 08:09 PM

If you have ID'd the load he is carrying as a bomb: your choices are seriously limited.

1) Get your carcass out of there before it becomes a non-moving carcass.

2) Call 911 as soon as you are clear and can do so without inducing panic.

OR the real tricky one, . . . slip behind him, . . . get out your piece, . . . take out his brain stem with the first round, . . . know a real good lawyer and have lots of cash just in case he only had a couple of street flares in his inside coat pocket that he was going to put in his buddy's car at lunch (cause his buddy loaned him a couple last week when he had a flat).

Obviously, . . . the real option is 1 & 2, . . . three has so many possible pitfalls as to almost not even be a possibility.

What would I do, . . . probably 1 & 2, . . . and a lot of praying in between.

May God bless,
Dwight

big daddy 9mm · July 7, 2005, 08:22 PM

pray and hope that you are wrong.

ATW525 · July 7, 2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Keeping an eye on him would also mean risking your own hide. I think inaction is the worst possible choice. Either get off at the next stop and notify authorities or bust a cap in him if you are certain he is carrying a bomb. I for one would not sit around waiting for him to push the detonator!

Obviously you get off at the next stop, but before then there's not much you can do but watch unless you're certain he has a bomb.

Mikkel · July 8, 2005, 02:41 AM

You just get off that train and call the police. Whats wrong with those guys? Allways go for soft targets that cant protect themself. Its cowardly and they should be treated thereafter. A bullet in the head and never be taken as prisoners!!

Sturmgewehr-58 · July 8, 2005, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Now if he is wearing a bulky jacket in Miami and he looked like he had a bomb strapped to him, hes getting one in the head.

At what point do you decide the guy LOOKS like he has a bomb strapped to him? Maybe you should leave your gun at home.

July 7, 2005, 10:44 AM	#1
Stephanie Plum Junior Member Join Date: June 14, 2005 Location: Trenton, NJ Posts: 5	Scenario: Subway You're on a subway train, carrying concealed, and notice the guy sitting across from you is wearing a bulky jacket concealing what may be a bomb strapped to his chest. He's starting to act nervous, and the train is between stations--what do you do?

July 7, 2005, 11:44 AM	#3
Nio Member Join Date: June 3, 2005 Posts: 31	OH! I know! Nio Edited for callous remarks in light of today’ bombing in the UK. Denny

July 7, 2005, 12:32 PM	#5
racinstylez Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2005 Posts: 240	I thought the bombs in UK were like in trash bins and mounted to the buses? No suicide bombers, but if a guy is willing to blow himself up I would get off that train as fast and hell and notify the police! __________________ Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

July 7, 2005, 12:35 PM	#6
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	Hope that it is not set with a dead man switch. Personally I would head to another car to find somewhere I could call the police without panicing anybody. If the guy has a switch and you pull your pistol.... Ka-boom has a good chance of happening. The reason for a CCW is to defend yourself and others who are thretened with deadly force. I would say the odds are pretty much in the suicide bombers favor. If you pull your gun and he sets the bomb of and everybody dies...then you have not sucessfully done what a CCW is for. Now if the Police can get trained individuals who the bomber might not see and take him out before he knows he is dead then its win-win. __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

July 7, 2005, 12:46 PM	#8
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	"He who runs away, lives to fight another day". You're outmatched and outgunned. Get the hell out of there and call 911. Suicide bombers have a habit of making themselves go boom the instant they're made. __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

July 7, 2005, 10:56 AM	#2
Avizpls Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2004 Posts: 774	Wow. Could anything be any less appropriate right now?

July 7, 2005, 12:42 PM	#7
Topthis Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Posts: 863	OH...I would pull out my piece and pistol whip him, then demand that he get on his stomach and place his hands behind his head!! Then I may just put a round in his leg, y'know...just for fun. Afterwards, I would start beating and kicking the crap outta him and ask the rest of the subway patrons to join in, we could even sing the Star Spangled Banner while doing so...then, after he no longer responded, I would then check beneath his oversized jacket...only to find a dozen roses and a diamond ring he was hiding, while on his way to propose to his fiance (which would account for his nervous behaviour)!!!! Uh, yeah people...lets not start getting paranoid and scared to live life.

July 7, 2005, 12:52 PM	#9
Twycross Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 1,187	I don't think there is much you can do, besides getting off the subway. Until you are absolutely sure is is a bomb, you have little to no justification for drawing on him. Even if you are sure it is a bomb, then it is just a race to see whether you can draw and kill him before he can flip his switch. And, as has been pointed out by others, just having a bulky jacket does not mean there is a bomb. It could be any number of things, including a ill-fitting jacket that poofs out in front. __________________ The test of character is not 'hanging in' when you expect light at the end of the tunnel, but performance of duty, and persistence of example when you know no light is coming. - Vice Admiral James Stockdale, USN (ret.)

July 7, 2005, 01:01 PM	#10
Garand Illusion Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,278	It's damn near impossible to defend against bombers. Israel has tried, and has had only VERY limited success. I was at Mt. Rushmore over the 4th, and was amazed at the security (haven't been there since the 70's when I was a kid). They had metal detectors and a guy confronting people before they parked making sure they had not "guns or bombs" in the car (hopefully terrorists would be honest enough to answer that one truthfully). Also had large numbers of armed rangers circulating everywhere. But as I was standing in line to go through the metal detector, I kept thinking how dumb it really was. If I was a suicide bomber, I'd just get in that tightly packed line for the detectors and when I got near the front ... BOOM. And if it was a coordinated attack, that would cause pandemonium and plenty of chances for my suicide bombing buddies to do the same. In the end, all you can do is "win" the war on terrorism and make a world that doesn't breed terrorists. That seems to be kind of difficult, though ... I feel horrible for the UK and London, but I am interested if this bloody assault will make them more resolved to fight terrorists (which is what happens in the US) or commit them to changing out the government and disengaging from the rest of the world (like Spain).

July 7, 2005, 01:36 PM	#11
PythonGuy Junior member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 456	You have a CCW for personal defense, not civil defense you do not need to detour into Police territory.

July 7, 2005, 03:23 PM	#12
Stephanie Plum Junior Member Join Date: June 14, 2005 Location: Trenton, NJ Posts: 5	Let's change the scenario a little to this: You're on a subway train, carrying concealed, and notice a guy sitting across from you wearing a bulky jacket. He moves slightly, and through an opening in the jacket you can see rows of what looks like sticks of dynamite strapped to his chest. He's starting to act nervous, and the train is between stations--what do you do?

July 7, 2005, 03:50 PM	#15
AttackTurtle Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2005 Location: Washington NJ Posts: 248	The only way I would act to defend myself or others would be if I saw the bomb, I was not able to get away, and I was certain of the individuals intentions. I would have to be 100% sure I was gonna die. __________________ RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

July 7, 2005, 03:58 PM	#16
racinstylez Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2005 Posts: 240	__________________ Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

July 7, 2005, 05:26 PM	#17
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,208	the only practical thing to do here, is the classic "bend over and .........." or, (gee I hope this does not offend a peaceful muslim) grab your bible, and study for the final exam. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

July 7, 2005, 05:40 PM	#18
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	We live in scary times, but we must show discipline and restraint before we use force. Like Topthis said, there could be a multitude of reasons the person is wearing a bulky jacket. Now if he is wearing a bulky jacket in Miami and he looked like he had a bomb strapped to him, hes getting one in the head. I know that we want to protect the public, but the public also includes that person that may or may NOT be carrying a bomb. If I really saw a bomb, I guess I would have no choice but to shoot. If I got off and called the cops, the terrorist would blow himself up, along with everyone else when the cops showed up. Tough scanario! __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

July 7, 2005, 06:06 PM	#19
ATW525 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 2,723	I think the best thing you can do if you don't see a bomb is to simply keep an eye on him for anything suspiscious that might indicate he's trying to detonate a device. Of course there's always hope that he'll want to leave this world with some parting words such as "Allah akbar!" (which I believe roughly translates into "Fill me full of lead").

July 7, 2005, 08:08 PM	#20
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	ATW525, Keeping an eye on him would also mean risking your own hide. I think inaction is the worst possible choice. Either get off at the next stop and notify authorities or bust a cap in him if you are certain he is carrying a bomb. I for one would not sit around waiting for him to push the detonator! __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

July 7, 2005, 08:09 PM	#21
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	If you have ID'd the load he is carrying as a bomb: your choices are seriously limited. 1) Get your carcass out of there before it becomes a non-moving carcass. 2) Call 911 as soon as you are clear and can do so without inducing panic. OR the real tricky one, . . . slip behind him, . . . get out your piece, . . . take out his brain stem with the first round, . . . know a real good lawyer and have lots of cash just in case he only had a couple of street flares in his inside coat pocket that he was going to put in his buddy's car at lunch (cause his buddy loaned him a couple last week when he had a flat). Obviously, . . . the real option is 1 & 2, . . . three has so many possible pitfalls as to almost not even be a possibility. What would I do, . . . probably 1 & 2, . . . and a lot of praying in between. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

July 7, 2005, 08:22 PM	#22
big daddy 9mm Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2005 Posts: 451	lets see....... pray and hope that you are wrong.

July 8, 2005, 02:41 AM	#24
Mikkel Member Join Date: January 6, 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 81	You just get off that train and call the police. Whats wrong with those guys? Allways go for soft targets that cant protect themself. Its cowardly and they should be treated thereafter. A bullet in the head and never be taken as prisoners!!

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