The coming of the AR

[Idaho 45 Vaquero]

Lets talk about the AR,

Now I've never been a fan of the AR-15 and its variants. I've always had big bolt actions, in calibers such as, .303 British, 7.5x55mm Swiss, .30-06, .308 Win. , and 300 WSM. For Semi-auto's I've been using 7.62x51mm FAL's. To me the AR has always been a pathetic little plastic gun in a pathetic under 100yd. cartridge. Many of these opinion's that I had about the AR, I made without having very much experience with one. Sure, I was outshooting my AR friends with my large caliber arms, but they are poor marksman anyway.

Then it happened earlier this week, I saw a 20" heavy barrel (hbar) A2 style AR-15, in new condition sitting and lying in front of me with $375 on its price tag. I figured I'd try the AR and if I hated it I could sell it for profit next week. But, boy it sure proved itself at the range. At 100 yds. it was doing about minute of angle groups with the carry handle sights. Then I was even more pleasantly surprised when I racked up the knob thing-a-ma-jig to 500 meters and was hitting a 8 inch diameter steel plate at about 520yds. It recoiled like a .22lr. and was a blast to shoot, I'm really happy with my new AR, and I think I'll keep it. Any advice to a new convert of the AR-15 crowd?

[Erno86]

If you have an endless wallet...you can keep throwing money at these machines.

[chris in va]

I too recently 'discovered' how accurate my budget AR is at 300 yards. If I used heavier bullets I wouldn't be surprised if I could hit steel at 600.

[USMC 77-81]

Most people who dislike the AR have never had one. I guy I shoot with never particularly liked them then he bought an AR 10 about a month ago. It has very quickly became his favorite rifle.

[HKFan9]

I dont know what's not to love about them, you can make them into anything you want, and theirs plenty of caliber options out there for all different applications. I think the 556 is quite a fine round, but theres endless other options in an AR platform that are better or worse at other things.

I have a new suppressor on order so while I wait, I am building a .300 Black Out for it. The suppressor will be used on other guns and calibers, but I would also like an AR in .300BO to mess with, specially since guys are buying 556 in panic mode again.

[Sevens]

I have much, much less experience with the AR than most recreational shooters these days. I first shot an AR in 1988, at the SAFS at Camp Perry. Government issued rifles, select fire but with a locking device to prevent us from rotating the selector to full auto. The one I was using was an M16A2, and IIRC, it was made by Hydramatic.

With my ear protection on, the most vivid and memorable facet of the experience was the -SPROINGGGG- from the buffer spring. Through the ear protection, it reminded me of a piston air rifle. As I was 16 at the time, it was a tremendous experience for me but it was interesting in that as much as I enjoyed it, my habitual nature of "clear thinking" (and not so much dreaming), it simply didn't appear on my radar before or after as something I wanted to own and spend long days shooting. We shot the rifles at man-sized paper targets at 200 and 300 yards. I did the SAFS four or five times, so I've shot a number of these... but only once a year.

I had a buddy in the mid-1990's who chased down a Colt HBar back in the day when pretty much only Colt was selling semiauto AR's for public consumption. (I am not sure if that is absolutely correct, but it was definitely my perception...) Back at this time, you saw a lot of competitors at Camp Perry that had AR rifles for High Power, but it was simply not a rifle that was prevalent at recreational shooting ranges in my circles. This was before the Crime Bill/AWB.

I started shooting .223 from a 14" T/C Contender in 1994, and still had no desire for an AR and my shooting world developed around handguns. It was literally the summer of 2013 and at the age of 40 when I finally got around to buying and owning my first AR and to be completely honest, I simply bought it because I thought it was a decent example of one that my buddy wanted to sell (to finance a better one of course...) and I figured it would be a good idea to have one considering all of the panic surrounding them.

It's a Rock River with a 20" barrel and it had less than a thousand rounds through it when I got it.

Truth, absolute truth: I have had it now just short of two years... I have taken this rifle on a range day once. It was definitely fun, irons only, and I used it to whack steel at 100, 200 and 450 yards. I have zero plans to alter or upgrade this rifle and I do plan to get it to the range at least once or maybe twice this year, if I get around to it.

For some perspective, I shoot somewhere around 15,000 rounds of center fire handgun ammo a year... and (before the crazy rimfire panic), probably 8-10,000 rounds of rimfire annually as well.

AR's just don't seem to grab me, but I certainly don't hate them.

[tahunua001]

best advice I can give you. don't drink the koolaid.
you're sure to get about 20 yahoos here telling you to change out the furniture for something that contains the acronym "MOE". it's just not necessary unless the ergonomics do not agree with you or you just want to make a piece unique, in which case, there is nothing unique about yet another gun that has the same aftermarket stuff as someone else. don't get me wrong, I am a huge proponent of aftermarket improvements for AR15s but if you are already hitting 8 inch groups at 520 yards then your gun already is leaps and bounds ahead of a lot of the "tacticooled" models that you normally see at the range. I recommend research and above all else, proper maintenance. as long as you clean it every couple crates of ammo you put through it(ok maybe a little more often than that) and properly lube it, it'll last long enough to be passed down to a child or grandchild.

[HKFan9]

Tah one of my next builds was gonna be a MK12 Mod 0 clone.... If I am using a standard fixed stock and the standard AR pistol grip for it... I am not tacticool am I??

As Tah said tho, you are doing great with the rifle, changing stuff isn't a problem as long as you do it to fit your wants and your needs.

Buying UTG rails and other do-dads for looks is a waste of money.

I have some tricked out AR's but anything I do or put on them serves a function and quality in components is important to me vs getting it to "look cool"

[979Texas]

The AR is a very addicting platform and just the ergonomics and balance and the way it handles is just beautiful. Even though there are more optimal calibers out there in bolt guns, which I happen to own a few too, just carrying, handling, and shooting the AR is a dream. And range is not an issue. The 5.56 is pretty accurate to 500 meters and a little beyond. And the .300 Blackout has decent range capabilities even though it does not seem like it would be a long range cartridge at all, I had to shoot and see it in person to beleive it. Plus the additional calibers that these black rifles are available in are nice to especially the 6.5 Grendel you should check out its ballistics and trajectory if you haven't already. Also with black rifles conversions are easy to switch calibers and you can customize the guns with plentiful aftermarket items that are easily installed. Great fun gun with endless options.

[tahunua001]

HK9,
you've seen my rifles, there is a difference between "practical modification" and "tacticool upgrade"

[skizzums]

I was the same. I used to shout from the rooftops how retarded the AR15 was. too small, unreliable, crappy ballistics and so on. AK or die. then I found one brand new for 509$ during the "panic". the ONLY gun that goes on every shooting trip is the AR15. I handload 75gr hornadyas an 77gr SMk's and can reliably bang 20" plates at 600 yards if it's not a tornado outside. truly love the caliber, the platform and although my before statement, it' reliability and ballistics. from now on i'll take small and fast any day of the week. of course I like my 8" .300Blackout as well, but for different reasons.

enjoy, everyone who gets an AR quits complaining about how sub-par they are in a few magazines. you can't get better than reliable, accurate, powerful and CHEAP!!!

[Erno86]

It looks like LWRC's new AR takes it to the limit, as far as "state of the art" is concerned.

[noonesshowmonkey]

A White Oak match barrel, Geiselle two-stage trigger, and a good glass make the AR a sub-MOA rifle. You can take a well put together 16" recce style AR out to 500m reliably. There are folks in the high power crowd that take them much, much farther.

[AKexpat]

and I'll say it again: AR-15's (and 1911's) are the LEGOs of the firearms world.

Built 2 QPC/Bushmasters from stripped lowers in 1992 (an A2 fluted 20" HBAR with A2 stock, and an A1 14" M4 barrel with welded AK74 muzzle brake and tele-stock). Both barrels 1-9" twist. With PMC 55 gr 5.56 ammo both guns were at least MOA at 100 yards on the bench rest.

I ruined a couple of triggers and hammers trying for a better let-off, but the parts are (were) fairly inexpensive. Learned a lot building those guns.

Sold the carbine years ago and my son has the A2 now (because my eyes are pretty pitiful these days).

Very satisfied with the platform.

(edit) HK: I agree with your stock and grip choice, except I like the stowaway grip for small parts storage (springs, pins, firing pin, et al in a ziplock plastic bag) and a cleaning kit in the trapdoor buttstock.

[RampantAndroid]

I don't think 1911s are the legos....Glocks are.

With my ear protection on, the most vivid and memorable facet of the experience was the -SPROINGGGG- from the buffer spring.

It's not only me?! I fired a firend's AR15 as my first AR15 and I asked him if something was wrong with it. "Why?" "Well, I hear something weird in the buffer tube. That sounds awful!"

He *loves* his AR15s like nothing else on this earth. He was pretty offended I think. AR15s are just tacky guns to me. I've owned one...sold it. My guns are more of the older designs. Love my 1903, Garand, Enfield, M21 and such a lot more than I'll ever enjoy an AR15, Scar or Tavor.

[JeepHammer]

I wasn't an AR fan, back in the EARLY 70's when I first laid hands on one...
The first civilian versions (and military versions) had skinny, undercut barrels that were simply crap.

When the first 20 H-Bar barrels showed up in the late 70s on match rifles, that changed my mind.
I was building rifles in the military by then, and I could actually hit something out to about 500 yards.

The limitation back then was the ammo...
And the manufacturing process of the rifles themselves.

Since the barrel/chamber nuts are lathe turned, there are pretty square with the barrel bore (With some exceptions).
If the threads on the barrel are lathe cut, they are usually true ('Square') with the bore, and that's a good start.

If the chamber nuts are late turned and not a separate process threaded,
Then they too are usually square with the centerline of the bore,
And more importantly, since they are lathe cut, they are square with the upper receiver mounting surface.

Where I see most inaccuracy is with upper receivers.
The barrel/chamber nut mounting surfaces are RARELY square with the bolt carrier bore in the uppers.

That front barrel nut mating surface MUST be square or the barrel will go in the upper receiver cocked in some silly direction!
Since your sights/optics mount on the RECEIVER,
And more than half the time the upper receiver and barrel are pointing in two different directions,
You are NEVER going to get that rifle to shoot in a straight line...

Square the receiver front,
Square the BARREL NUT (that has the hand guard spring attached) so if the upper receiver thread are cocked sideways, the barrel still gets proper compression all the way around,
Then install the barrel/chamber nut,
Then screw on the barrel nut,
And everything is in a straight line for a change.

If you can print VERTICALLY aligned groups from 25 Yards out to about 200 yards, then your upper is probably aligned with your upper.

If your groups wonder diagonally, or windage needs adjusted (more than for 'Spin Drift', I hate that term),
Then your barrel is probably cocked in the upper receiver,
And your line of sight isn't aligned with the bore.

Upper receiver alignment tools are CHEAP, you turn them with a common hand drill, and it makes a WORLD of difference when someone complains about 'Windage' or elevation changes when range changes...
Diagonal 'Walk' of the groups is common complaint when the barrel is cocked in the upper receiver also.

I know everyone has their opinion,
But for me, the .223 Rem round has a purpose,
That purpose was varmint control and smaller, thin skinned game getting...
Putting a short barrel (or pistol length barrel) on a .223 Rem makes about as much sense as putting a screen door on a submarine...

I have exactly ONE 16" upper, it's a carbine that rides in my Jeep toolbox.
Everything else I have is 20" or longer.
The difference between 16" & 20" is about 300-350 FPS velocity MINUMUM,
(Some ammo up to 500 FPS slower in short barrels)
And if you are using iron sights, 4" out of your sight radius...
Inherent inaccuracy you are building into the rifles when you go short barrels.

With a little upper receiver work, some minor trigger work,
The 'Stock' AR H-Bar with 20" barrel will shoot with most bolt guns.

I like the fast follow up shot when there are a half dozen ground hogs, a dozen prairie dogs or a couple of coyotes in range and viable targets.

The little AR is TOUGH when you pay attention to things like optics mounts...
I don't have an issue with all the things the 'AK' and turn bolt guys always spout off about when they go on an AR rant...
I still own several bolt rifles, and probably aways will, but for general target and varmint control, I'm solidly in the AR camp.

[JeepHammer]

He *loves* his AR15s like nothing else on this earth. He was pretty offended I think. AR15s are just tacky guns to me. I've owned one...sold it. My guns are more of the older designs. Love my 1903, Garand, Enfield, M21 and such a lot more than I'll ever enjoy an AR15, Scar or Tavor.

I have a room FULL of older stuff, from old Stevens .22 single shots, to black powder double rifles/shotguns.
The brass frames just call to me when I see them, and they are great, along with cowboy guns, levers, revolvers (Especially black powder revolvers with brass frames).

90% of my smith work is on AR or similar 'Black' rifles.
The more silly, goofy, useless, the more the guys seem to want it.

9% is accurizing bolt rifles or shotguns for actual hunting or targets,
Or some guy trying to turn an old surplus military turn bolt into a 'Tactical' rifle...

The last 1% is what I call 'Real Gun Smithing',
Making parts for, or fitting parts for the older stuff.
I MUCH prefer to work on the old stuff, but that's not what pays the bills these days...

SHOOTING SKILLS ARE PARASHABLE!
If you don't practicle REGULARLY, your skills WILL go away.
When I'm just at the range keeping my skills up,
The 'Black' rifles will do, and are easy to deal with.

Nothing quite like taking a black powder revolver down to loose parts to clean it after a target session,
The AR's are stupid simple to clean.
Shooting and cleaning to keep your skills is a chore, just like anything else you MUST do to keep things running,

When I'm out to have 'FUN' at the range, I wheel out the old time firearms,
Nothing like the crowd that gathers when you are shooting a .45-120 Sharps buffalo gun!
Or doing speed drills on a dueling post with brass frame black powder pistols!

[HKFan9]

HK9,
you've seen my rifles, there is a difference between "practical modification" and "tacticool upgrade"

Oh certainly. You are lucky enough to be able to hunt with your AR's. Mine just serve me for work / range work/ and home defense.

Your's, as you recommended is set up practically (at least your 6.5 is I remember that one) no frills, sleek, pretty light weight design from what I can remember which is what everyone wants in a hunting rifle.

My AR's are meant to be abused, dropped, kicked, smacked off barriers, fired fast, and put away dirty, so I do have some of the "Tacticool" guy things, but mostly its because I want a good rail I know won't deform from the abuse, because I run a few different fore grips, lights, an ocasional bipod, another sling attachment point... ect.

Optics are the same thing... quality.. that can withstand the abuse, with a warranty to back them up. My main AR I keep an Aimpoint T1 on a throw lever mount, and now a new Vortex Razor HD Gen II 1-6x scope on a throw lever. I switch them and grips and bipods depending on what I am doing and where I am doing it that day.

I guess what I am trying to say is... add-ons come in all shapes and sizes, buy the ones that suit you and your purpose. Tah gets to hunt... so he doesn't wanna pack around lights and lasers and beefed up rails and so on... where as I drop my guns, or fall on them and do whatever. Two different parts lists for two different tasks.

[tahunua001]

I don't know... I'd rather fall on a tube than rails... lots of sharp corners.

[berettaprofessor]

Just read through the whole thread. Isn't anyone going to ask where the OP found a 20" heavy barrel AR for $375?

[tahunua001]

you never ask a man about his honey holes.

[HKFan9]

I don't know... I'd rather fall on a tube than rails... lots of sharp corners.

That is why modular rails are all the new rage my friend.

[tahunua001]

at the risk of completely derailing this thread... that is one sexy handguard. what is it?

[HKFan9]

at the risk of completely derailing this thread... that is one sexy handguard. what is it?

Its a Geissele SMR, but BCM / HSP when they designed the Jack Carbine (that gun pictured) asked to get it in 10''

It is nice, decently light but strong, and locks up like a rock. That gun is how it came ordered from BCM besides the optic and some small add-ons. Only thing I am currently changing is it came with a pin and welded BCM Mod 1 Comp, I have a new Silencerco Omega on order, so I am removing the BCM comp for the Silencerco one.

[A pause for the COZ]

Watch out!!! The AR bug is gona get you....

Wait till you get a AR10 in 308. That is what the AR was meant to be in the first place.

Up to 4 and counting for me. You can build one for any specific task you have.
Main battle rifle to room cleaner. Then switch and swap parts to make some thing else.

I use a 5.56 1-9 A2 carbine for range work.
A 223 1-12 rifle for light bullet or cast boolit shooting with accuracy.
A 300 Black out carbine. For light weight 30 cal action.
A AR10 in 308 win. This covers all the things you would think you want to do with a 308 win. Plus do it More, faster, Bigger and badder. ok maybe not BR shooting. But not bad ether at a few hundred yards.

Ahhhh whats not to like?

Getting the itch for a 38 cal AR soon.