The Correct Rifle Load? - Page 2

SL1 · March 23, 2009, 02:42 PM

GuitarXM,

From the load data you presented, it doesn't look like you will not get over max with a compressed load. But, my QuickLOAD program does go over max at about 45 grains. However, that is with the default values, which are usually a little conservative. With your strong bolt action rifle, you shouldn't have safety concerns just a little over max, if that is what actually happens.

So, I would say start somewhere around Hodgdon's start load or a little below and see how it shoots. I assume you are looking for accuracy rather than punch, so slower may not be a bad idea.

It is hard to pick an accuracy load for your gun by looking at other folks' accuracy loads, especially if you have a different length barrel. The different barrel time for the same bullet can give different results due to different barrel vibration harmonics in the different length barrels.

SL1

GuitarXM · March 23, 2009, 03:06 PM

lol.....$1 mil? no problem....
I have to email Obama that you need a bail out like AIG

Give me 2 days.

Bart, I measured my case and it was perfect 2.005"
I also have an RCBS micrometer and it measured 0

I then, put it through the RCBS resizing die in order to expand the neck and make it round, and it set the shoulder back like .002" so now its under 0...Is that ok?

Sam06 · March 23, 2009, 03:31 PM

LOL! I opened the window before I threw them out so don't worry about me. Now I have to go out in the weeds and find my S bushing dies because that is what you made on your lathe, which I don't have.

Maybe will Obama send you a check as he has all my money or at least will soon.

Here are the dies; http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tnumber=357095 I have been using them for years, they work good too.

GuitarXM · March 23, 2009, 09:45 PM

Sam, I am just curious, what is the max load for 168 gr sierra match king....308 winchester in the SPEER manual using IMR 4064?

By the way I looked at my LEE spoons, and my 3.1cc spoon, measures 41.6gr..
The other spoons are either too low or too high...so I guess I'll stick with the 41.6 spoon.

What case and primer do they use?

Sam06 · March 24, 2009, 06:55 AM

GuitarXM, I will go check my book. Be advised it is an older loadBook and I have found that the Max is a little higher in it than in my new Sierra Book.

This is a LoadBook from 1995

Speer lists their 168gr BTHP match bullet with IMR 4064
BC of 0.480
COL 2.800"

MIN 42.0gr Vel 2479fps
MAX 46.0gr Vel 2724fps

***All the loads in this are a little higher than the newer books. I usually reduce the max by 10% to start. That would give you 41.4gr very close to the 41.3gr load I talked about earlier in the post. I keep these older books because I have a bunch of older IMR powders before they were bought out by Hogden. I may be wrong but I believe the powder has been reformulated and it changed a little.

SL1 · March 24, 2009, 07:14 AM

GuitarXM,

For some reason Speer does NOT include data for the SIERRA 168 grain bullet in their SPEER manual

But, in the Speer Manual #14 they do show a max load of 46.0 grains of IMR-4064 behind their own 168 grain match bullet. It is not shown as a compressed load. Strangely, they also show a max load of 45.0 grains for their 165 grain "Trophy Bonded Bear Claw SP" bullet that is shown as "compressed." And, the same 45.0 grain load is shown for their other 3 165 grain bullets, but is not listed as compressed. So, I am guessing that 46 grains is a pretty full case with their 168 grain bullet.

My old Sierra 2nd Edition manual showes 44.7 grains of IMR-4064 giving their 168 grain Match King 2700 fps (from a 26" test barrel). That manual does not necessarily give absolute max charges - - it showes the charges that produce the specific velocities in its tabular format, and just does not show a charge for the next velocity if the pressure would be too high. The next velocity in the table is 2800 fps, and, extrapolating, the charge woud have to be about 46.4 grains to get there. So, the manual is basically saying not to go as high as 46.4 grains, but isn't saying where to stop in between. Maybe somebody with a newer Sierra manual has better data for that bullet.

SL1

Sam06 · March 24, 2009, 07:30 AM

SL1 and Guitar, I have the 5th ed of Sierra's load book(I think its the newest) I got it in November of 2008.

IMR 4064 and the Sierra 168gr HPBT Matchking, C.O.A.L 2.8000"

Weight x Grains Velocity in FPS
37.8 2400
39.7 2500
41.5 2600
43.4 2700

Accuracy load: RE-15 42.0gr 2600FPS

Test components used

Savage 12VSS
26" Barrel
1-10" twist
Case: Federal
Trim length: 2.005"
Primer: Fed 210M

Thats right out of the Book...................Sam

Bart B. · March 24, 2009, 04:35 PM

GuitarXM: "Bart, I measured my case and it was perfect 2.005" I also have an RCBS micrometer and it measured 0 I then, put it through the RCBS resizing die in order to expand the neck and make it round, and it set the shoulder back like .002" so now its under 0...Is that ok?"

Sounds good to me for the amount of case head set back. many years ago, one of our National Champions suggested I do this for my bolt guns. So I did, but set 30 cases back .001, 30 more back .002, another 30 back .003 and finally the last 30 back .004. Shot two 15-shot groups with each. Sure 'nuff; those set back .002-inch were the most accurate.

Info on IMR4064 for Sierra 168's..... Since 1963 when the .308 was first allowed in NRA high power matches, the bolt gun folks have won more matches and set more records using 41 grains for both 200 and 300 yards. Nobody got concerned about muzzle velocity as it didn't matter and depending on the barrel and its condition it was all over the place.

The above aside, folks shooting M14, M1A and 7.62 M1 rifles used 43 to 44 grains. Definitely a max load but it did its share of winning and record setting for service rifles up through 600 yards.

GuitarXM · March 24, 2009, 09:15 PM

I understand what your saying Bart, but this puts me under the MINIMUM head space according to ANSI standards.

Bart B. · March 25, 2009, 06:28 AM

GuitarXM, I know that a case resized to 1.628-inch headspace is shorter than the 1.630-inch ANSI minimum. Measure some new, unfired cases and you'll see they're all shorter than the minimum; they have to chamber easily.

I've used my case headspace gages to measure LC M80 ball as well as M118 and M852 match ammo and it's all been in the 1.625- to 1.628-inch range.

Bart B. · March 25, 2009, 08:36 AM

Regarding my earlier post listing some groups shot with full length sizing dies, here's some pictures of the machine rest used for some of them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12787226@N00/254765260/

This one originally belonged to George Tubb, father of David Tubb who now uses it. About a dozen of these were built and used by top high power bolt gunners to test their bolt guns' ammo and build as nobody could shoot heavy recoiling rifles off a bench top rest very accurate.

One of it's two front guide rods slides in a V-block, the other on a smooth rod. Its back guide rod rides in a vertically adustable V-block for elevation changes. The base pivots to adjust horizontally. Typically bolted to a concrete bench. It's top cradle where the rifle's clamped at the forend and cross bolted at the butt end weighs about 40 pounds. With a 13-pound bolt gun in it, it recoils about 2 inches, then gets pushed back into battery for the next shot.

I borrowed one from a friend some years ago to measure its repeatability in aiming each time it was pushed back into battery. Errors were about 1/50th MOA as measured with three axis dial indicator checks. It was easy to shoot a round, reload single shot, push it back into battery then fire again all in about 5 seconds. Watched him shoot his Winchester M70 using handmade 168's from a set of dies made by Don Rorschach; 10 rounds in 60 seconds (200 yard sitting rapid fire time limit in NRA matches) into a one holer at 100 yard measuring .15-inch center to center. He said he was no longer going to make his own bullets; Sierra's did just as good.

James R. Burke · March 28, 2009, 11:50 AM

I believe Kraig, and Sam have it covered really well. I try to use the manual for the bullet I am going to be loading.

March 23, 2009, 03:06 PM	#27
GuitarXM Member Join Date: February 4, 2009 Posts: 63	- lol.....$1 mil? no problem.... I have to email Obama that you need a bail out like AIG Give me 2 days. Bart, I measured my case and it was perfect 2.005" I also have an RCBS micrometer and it measured 0 I then, put it through the RCBS resizing die in order to expand the neck and make it round, and it set the shoulder back like .002" so now its under 0...Is that ok?

March 23, 2009, 03:31 PM	#28
Sam06 Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Fayettenam Posts: 1,086	LOL! I opened the window before I threw them out so don't worry about me. Now I have to go out in the weeds and find my S bushing dies because that is what you made on your lathe, which I don't have. Maybe will Obama send you a check as he has all my money or at least will soon. Here are the dies; http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tnumber=357095 I have been using them for years, they work good too. __________________ The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. Last edited by Sam06; March 23, 2009 at 03:45 PM.

March 23, 2009, 09:45 PM	#29
GuitarXM Member Join Date: February 4, 2009 Posts: 63	- Sam, I am just curious, what is the max load for 168 gr sierra match king....308 winchester in the SPEER manual using IMR 4064? By the way I looked at my LEE spoons, and my 3.1cc spoon, measures 41.6gr.. The other spoons are either too low or too high...so I guess I'll stick with the 41.6 spoon. What case and primer do they use?

March 24, 2009, 06:55 AM	#30
Sam06 Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Fayettenam Posts: 1,086	GuitarXM, I will go check my book. Be advised it is an older loadBook and I have found that the Max is a little higher in it than in my new Sierra Book. This is a LoadBook from 1995 Speer lists their 168gr BTHP match bullet with IMR 4064 BC of 0.480 COL 2.800" MIN 42.0gr Vel 2479fps MAX 46.0gr Vel 2724fps ***All the loads in this are a little higher than the newer books. I usually reduce the max by 10% to start. That would give you 41.4gr very close to the 41.3gr load I talked about earlier in the post. I keep these older books because I have a bunch of older IMR powders before they were bought out by Hogden. I may be wrong but I believe the powder has been reformulated and it changed a little. __________________ The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.

March 24, 2009, 07:30 AM	#32
Sam06 Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Fayettenam Posts: 1,086	SL1 and Guitar, I have the 5th ed of Sierra's load book(I think its the newest) I got it in November of 2008. IMR 4064 and the Sierra 168gr HPBT Matchking, C.O.A.L 2.8000" Weight x Grains Velocity in FPS 37.8 2400 39.7 2500 41.5 2600 43.4 2700 Accuracy load: RE-15 42.0gr 2600FPS Test components used Savage 12VSS 26" Barrel 1-10" twist Case: Federal Trim length: 2.005" Primer: Fed 210M Thats right out of the Book...................Sam __________________ The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.

March 23, 2009, 02:42 PM	#26
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	GuitarXM, From the load data you presented, it doesn't look like you will not get over max with a compressed load. But, my QuickLOAD program does go over max at about 45 grains. However, that is with the default values, which are usually a little conservative. With your strong bolt action rifle, you shouldn't have safety concerns just a little over max, if that is what actually happens. So, I would say start somewhere around Hodgdon's start load or a little below and see how it shoots. I assume you are looking for accuracy rather than punch, so slower may not be a bad idea. It is hard to pick an accuracy load for your gun by looking at other folks' accuracy loads, especially if you have a different length barrel. The different barrel time for the same bullet can give different results due to different barrel vibration harmonics in the different length barrels. SL1

March 24, 2009, 07:14 AM	#31
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	GuitarXM, For some reason Speer does NOT include data for the SIERRA 168 grain bullet in their SPEER manual But, in the Speer Manual #14 they do show a max load of 46.0 grains of IMR-4064 behind their own 168 grain match bullet. It is not shown as a compressed load. Strangely, they also show a max load of 45.0 grains for their 165 grain "Trophy Bonded Bear Claw SP" bullet that is shown as "compressed." And, the same 45.0 grain load is shown for their other 3 165 grain bullets, but is not listed as compressed. So, I am guessing that 46 grains is a pretty full case with their 168 grain bullet. My old Sierra 2nd Edition manual showes 44.7 grains of IMR-4064 giving their 168 grain Match King 2700 fps (from a 26" test barrel). That manual does not necessarily give absolute max charges - - it showes the charges that produce the specific velocities in its tabular format, and just does not show a charge for the next velocity if the pressure would be too high. The next velocity in the table is 2800 fps, and, extrapolating, the charge woud have to be about 46.4 grains to get there. So, the manual is basically saying not to go as high as 46.4 grains, but isn't saying where to stop in between. Maybe somebody with a newer Sierra manual has better data for that bullet. SL1

March 24, 2009, 04:35 PM	#33
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	GuitarXM: "Bart, I measured my case and it was perfect 2.005" I also have an RCBS micrometer and it measured 0 I then, put it through the RCBS resizing die in order to expand the neck and make it round, and it set the shoulder back like .002" so now its under 0...Is that ok?" Sounds good to me for the amount of case head set back. many years ago, one of our National Champions suggested I do this for my bolt guns. So I did, but set 30 cases back .001, 30 more back .002, another 30 back .003 and finally the last 30 back .004. Shot two 15-shot groups with each. Sure 'nuff; those set back .002-inch were the most accurate. Info on IMR4064 for Sierra 168's..... Since 1963 when the .308 was first allowed in NRA high power matches, the bolt gun folks have won more matches and set more records using 41 grains for both 200 and 300 yards. Nobody got concerned about muzzle velocity as it didn't matter and depending on the barrel and its condition it was all over the place. The above aside, folks shooting M14, M1A and 7.62 M1 rifles used 43 to 44 grains. Definitely a max load but it did its share of winning and record setting for service rifles up through 600 yards.

March 24, 2009, 09:15 PM	#34
GuitarXM Member Join Date: February 4, 2009 Posts: 63	- I understand what your saying Bart, but this puts me under the MINIMUM head space according to ANSI standards.

March 25, 2009, 06:28 AM	#35
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	GuitarXM, I know that a case resized to 1.628-inch headspace is shorter than the 1.630-inch ANSI minimum. Measure some new, unfired cases and you'll see they're all shorter than the minimum; they have to chamber easily. I've used my case headspace gages to measure LC M80 ball as well as M118 and M852 match ammo and it's all been in the 1.625- to 1.628-inch range.

March 25, 2009, 08:36 AM	#36
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Regarding my earlier post listing some groups shot with full length sizing dies, here's some pictures of the machine rest used for some of them. http://www.flickr.com/photos/12787226@N00/254765260/ This one originally belonged to George Tubb, father of David Tubb who now uses it. About a dozen of these were built and used by top high power bolt gunners to test their bolt guns' ammo and build as nobody could shoot heavy recoiling rifles off a bench top rest very accurate. One of it's two front guide rods slides in a V-block, the other on a smooth rod. Its back guide rod rides in a vertically adustable V-block for elevation changes. The base pivots to adjust horizontally. Typically bolted to a concrete bench. It's top cradle where the rifle's clamped at the forend and cross bolted at the butt end weighs about 40 pounds. With a 13-pound bolt gun in it, it recoils about 2 inches, then gets pushed back into battery for the next shot. I borrowed one from a friend some years ago to measure its repeatability in aiming each time it was pushed back into battery. Errors were about 1/50th MOA as measured with three axis dial indicator checks. It was easy to shoot a round, reload single shot, push it back into battery then fire again all in about 5 seconds. Watched him shoot his Winchester M70 using handmade 168's from a set of dies made by Don Rorschach; 10 rounds in 60 seconds (200 yard sitting rapid fire time limit in NRA matches) into a one holer at 100 yard measuring .15-inch center to center. He said he was no longer going to make his own bullets; Sierra's did just as good. Last edited by Bart B.; March 25, 2009 at 10:06 AM.

March 28, 2009, 11:50 AM	#37
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	I believe Kraig, and Sam have it covered really well. I try to use the manual for the bullet I am going to be loading.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search