Model 1912 (12) 20 Gauge - Factory re-chamber?

[Wyoredman]

Hello everyone. Been awhile since I posted, but I have a new question that I hope someone can shed some light on for me.

I recently purchased a nice little Model 1912 20ga for $700.00. It appears the gun has been re-blued as it has a deep luster and some of the roll markings on the barrel are a bit hard to read, like the bluing has filled in the letters.

Anyway, let me describe the gun, then I will get to my questions. The gun has a serial number of 146**, the serial # on the receiver and the Magazine tube match. The barrel is 25" without a rib. Below the model number roll mark on the left side of the barrel it has been stamped "2 3/4" CHAM." and it appears the choke stamp has been over struck with CYL. Beneath the CYL I can see remnants of FULL. I measured the end of the bore at 0.615".

I disassembled the gun, inspected it and cleaned and oiled it. Once I had it together, I shot three rounds of 2 3/4" Remington #6 "Game Loads". It seemed to function OK.

Now for my questions:
1)Is there anyway to tell if the gun was re-chambered from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" by the Winchester factory or was it done by a gunsmith?
2)How much does the re-bulling job and the re-chamber detract from the value?
3)Is the gun safe to continue to use modern 2 3/4" loads.
4)Did I pay too much money?

Thanks for any info you can give me. I don't have pictures, but I can try and take some if it would help.

Thanks
Wyoredman

[44 AMP]

It appears the gun has been re-blued as it has a deep luster and some of the roll markings on the barrel are a bit hard to read, like the bluing has filled in the letters.

Bluing doesn't fill in the letters. It can't.
What makes the marking difficult to read is the polishing of the outside of the barrel, prior to being reblued.

The gun has a serial number of 146**, the serial # on the receiver and the Magazine tube match.

I am unaware of any model 12s that had the serial number on the magazine tube itself. What you are seeing as a match is the receiver and the receiver extension, which does have the serial number on it.

The barrel is 25" without a rib. Below the model number roll mark on the left side of the barrel it has been stamped "2 3/4" CHAM." and it appears the choke stamp has been over struck with CYL. Beneath the CYL I can see remnants of FULL.

The 25" barrel length is not the common standard length. Generally speaking old shotgun barrels are even numbered lengths, 30,28, 26 inch etc.
The 25" length AND the fact that the choke marking has been overstamped tells me the tube was shortened by a gunsmith, and probably not the Winchester factory.


So, for your questions,

1) The only way to be sure if the factory did the work, is to find who has the record of the condition your gun was shipped from the factory, IF they still exist. (and, pay for the search service)

2) Any repair or customization work, even done by the factory, affects collector value. Collectors pay the most for pristine guns, and "as new in the box" with all accessories and papers is worth the most to them. Every step down from that affects what collectors are willing to pay, and repair work generally removes/destroys what collectors are willing to pay for.

They want original condition, and pay the most for the best original finish condition. There are cases where a gun with very worn bluing is worth more to a collector than the exact same gun that has been reblued/refinished.
Rebluing doesn't hurt the value of a field gun, but it will destroy collector interest.

3) Absent any mechanical flaw (wear, broken, rusted, etc) the gun should be fine to use with modern shells matching its chamber. Model 12s were all made after 1912, and when in proper mechanical condition are safe with smokeless powder factory loads. I have a 12ga made in the 20s, the barrel marking says "nickel steel" which was Winchester's name for the high grade steel of the era. Other companies used other names, such as "Fluid steel" or "Nitro steel".

4) "Too much money" is a judgement call. I paid $125 for my first model 12, field grade, 30" full choke, no rib, bought used in the early 1970s .
The first guy who saw it offered me $200 for it. I declined, and still have the gun today.

$700 in today's money isn't a lot comparatively speaking.

[Wyoredman]

44 Amp,
Thanks. I read in the Blue Book of Gun Values that the early Model 1912 20 gauge did come with a 25" barrel? Hmm. I am confused again! But that is pretty easy to do!

I guess I will just quit wondering and shoot it.
Thanks again.

[stuckinthe60s]

the Model 12 in 20 ga. was a 2 1/2" chambered gun until sometime in the '30s. Guns of older vintage need to have their barrel's chamber lengthened, AND the ejection port lengthened to reliably handle the now standard 2 3/4" shells.
what is your serial #? 4, 5 or 6 digits?
4 = 1913
5 = 1916
6 = 1952

if the rollmark appears unaltered, your gun is ok.
most smiths would strike out the 2 1/2" mark and over strike it 2 3/4"
some didnt.
if your gun was updated, the ejection port would have been lengthened too. sounds to me if your gun works, its been done properly or is a factory original 2 3/4".

[44 AMP]

If the Blue Book says there was a 25", then there was a 25". GENERALLY the even number lengths are more common.

Also consider this, back in the old days, Winchester, and many other gun makers would put any of their options on a gun if you ordered it that way. You see it most on rifles, but shotguns could also be had with "non standard" combinations of stock and barrel legth, even sights, to the customer's order, for a small charge.

[Wyoredman]

Thanks!

I am now thinking of taking this nice little shotgun to a gunsmith and having him thread barrel for screw in choke tubes, since it measures at and is stamped cylinder bore (CYL - 0.615"). The modification wouldn't mess up any collector value, because it appears the gun has already been modified.

What do you think? Anyone had tat done on an example like this old gun?

[44 AMP]

The first step would be to have a competent smith evaluate the barrel. SOME of the old guns have barrels that are literally, too thin to work well with screw in chokes.

Remember that the choke tube has a thickness, and ALL of its doesn't restrict the bore. Anything can be relieved (to a point) and threaded, but if the barrel is too thin, its not going to last.
There are reasons that, in the old days variable chokes, poly chokes cutts compensators etc. were attached to the outside of the barrel, not the inside.

I don't know your gun, so, can't offer a valid opinion, but I have compared the muzzles of my Model 12 with a Rem 870 which had Remchoke, and the old Winchester barrel was noticeably smaller in outside diameter.

A good smith will tell you not only if a project can be done, but if it should be done. It would be foolish to do it the barrel is too thin, the choke might get shot out (at some unknown number of rounds) or its also possible the barrel could be weakened enough to actually break.

Replacement model 12 20ga barrels aren't common items anymore.

one other thing I would suggest, shoot, and pattern the gun, as is, with the ammo you're going to be using. Not only does that give you a baseline, it will show you how much, if any, improvement is needed for what you want to do with the gun.

Good Luck!

[Wyoredman]

Thanks again. Good advice, all!

[Mike Irwin]

If your Model 12 ejected fired 2.75" shells OK, then it was likely factory chambered for 2.75" shells.

The longer shells would tend to hang up in the ejection port of guns originally chambered for 2.5" shells. Of course, it's possible that the ejection port could have been enlarged. Check for anything that looks out of the ordinary.

Winchester switched all 20 gauge Model 12s to 2.75" chamberings starting around 1925, according to Denis Adler's book.

According to some other stuff I found on the web, Model 12s that are NOT marked with a chamber length have 2.5" chambers (at least from the factory). It was only after they switched to the longer chamber that they began marking the barrel.

If you can, compare your markings to those on the gun AND, if possible, on a known Model 12 from around the same time period. It's very unlikely that a gunsmith would have had stamps with the same fonts used by Winchester, so it's very likely that the numbers will be very different, may not be applied in line with the other markings (crooked), and may not be evenly spaced.

[stinkeypete]

A simple chamber gauge is a virgin unfired 2.75" shell. From back of the brass to the tip of it's uncrimped plastic, that is the 2.75" measurement. Lots of us reloaders have sacks of them. If it plunks in, it's a 2.75" chamber.

When crimped, a 2.75" shell is about 2 5/8" long. Some are 2 1/2" long.

The problem is, it will fit in a 2.5" chamber but when fired, the fold crimp has a hard time opening, it funnels the shot and wad, and can increase pressure dramatically.