Define Loaded Gun - Page 3

**JohnKSa** · July 10, 2015, 09:14 PM

Quote:

To me a loaded gun has to fire if I pull the trigger...

By this definition, any single action firearm is unloaded as long as it is not cocked, even if the chamber is loaded.

That definition would also mean that a gun with a manual safety set to the safe position is unloaded even if a round is chambered since pulling the trigger wouldn't fire it.

I think it's pretty clear that by any definition or stretch of the imagination, a firearm with a round in the chamber is loaded.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 10, 2015, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Someone either chambered a round or there was a round chambered in the first place.

The slide was locked back when he handed the pistol to someone off-camera to verify that it was unloaded. It was handed back with the slide locked back. Paige then released the slide, pointed the gun at the floor (and his foot), and pulled the trigger. Obviously, he chambered a round. Which proves that a gun with a loaded magazine is not an empty (unloaded) firearm.

stagpanther · July 10, 2015, 11:53 PM

Quote:

To me a loaded gun has to fire if I pull the trigger, that means that their has to be a round chambered. I can pull the trigger on an empty chamber all day with a loaded mag and the gun will do nothing, to me that is not loaded.

Like the saying goes, lock and load. Not load, lock, and load.

Not necessarily true--A weapon with the bolt locked back can inadvertently strip a round and fire if bungled the right way--and has happened. However small the chances may appear to be to actually fire--if a live cartridge is in the gun--it's loaded. Unless the mag is out, the bolt/cylinder disabled and the chamber verified look and feel empty--then I assume the weapon is loaded. Murphy is your shooting instructor--he's gonna find a way to get you to AD!

**44 AMP** · July 11, 2015, 03:33 AM

What the US Army taught me to do in 1975, on command..

LOCK (a loaded magazine into the weapon)
&
LOAD (load a round into the chamber)

This was the command sequence for anything that used a magazine. (and fired from the closed bolt)

For weapons that did not use a magazine (belt fed) or used a magazine and fired from the Open Bolt)
the commands were

LOAD (insert belt or loaded mag)
&
MAKE READY (move bolt to the firing position)

Some instructors would use Load & Make Ready for magazine fed closed bolt weapons as well. LOAD meant insert a loaded magazine, and Make Ready was the command to chamber a round.

The definitions I learned and will continue to use are

Loaded =ammo in the gun. round in the chamber, or not

Unloaded = no ammo in the gun

for transport, loaded is what ever the law says it is.

and, if you must be more precise, I suggest "Ready", "live" or "hot" to indicate a round in the chamber beyond the assumption of one from the term "Loaded".

Use whatever terms you feel best with, but, if you think a gun isn't loaded when there are rounds in it, but none in the chamber, I hope you never find out differently.

Taco-XL · July 11, 2015, 04:21 AM

When i think "fully loaded" i think of how i order my burger at Five Guys.

45_auto · July 11, 2015, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantsx

miltary definitions have nothing to do with this.

Why not? What definitions do you believe have anything to do with this? Legal definitions? Personal definitions on a forum? I can show you thousands of different ones of either type that support any position that you want to take. Why are they any more relevant than military definitions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifesizepotato

Firmly believe that loaded = round in the chamber. A semi-auto with a full magazine but no round in the chamber is functionally identical to a semi-auto with ammo located in the next county over until someone consciously racks the slide or teleporting cartridge technology is invented. Pull that trigger all you want, nothing is going to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragline45

To me a loaded gun has to fire if I pull the trigger, that means that their has to be a round chambered. I can pull the trigger on an empty chamber all day with a loaded mag and the gun will do nothing, to me that is not loaded.

I would guess that both of you have very little experience with open-bolt weapons.

If you ever go to shoot one, you may be surprised by what happens when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber with a loaded mag thinking that it's "unloaded". Make sure that you have it pointed downrange, because it's going to go off.

Trying to apply your personal terminology from your limited experience to everyone doesn't work very well.

DanTSX · July 11, 2015, 07:47 AM

45 auto, you are projecting. My experience isn't limited.

To be clear, I am talking about the Army qualification range commands you cited. These commands and other regulations are rooted in older weapon types than we are talking about. Noteably, applied from bolt action arms as another poster thoughtfully pointed out. Would it be too much to read the entire conversation for context before admonishing me or berating anyone who didn't serve as an uneducated fool? You were taught a method that addressed the lowest common denominator to keep every joe who never touched a gun before safe and operating on the same page. That works for boot. (Maybe) but out here in the real world, we are having this very discussion of what it means when someone wants fool around with loaded ammunition supplies in the presence of cold guns.

Oh I know what happens on an open bolt firearm. Don't assume so much.

osbornk · July 11, 2015, 09:04 AM

To me, it's simple. If there is ammo in the weapon, it's loaded. If it can be fired without adding anything, it's loaded.

mavracer · July 11, 2015, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Obviously lots of people on here who've never qualified with a firearm in the military.

In the military terms lock and load.
load refers to loading the chamber.
Let your Drill tell you to unload the gun and you just empty the chamber and leave a loaded mag in place and see what happens

BarryLee · July 11, 2015, 09:47 AM

Wow, thought I’d get four or five responses and the thread would fade away. I didn’t count the actual responses, but it seems the general consensus is that a loaded magazine inserted into a gun equals a loaded gun even if there is nothing in the chamber.

I realize the range probably posted the sign to avoid any confusion and I obviously have no issue with that. The only thing that I disagreed with was the range employee’s assertion that a handgun with a loaded magazine inserted, but no round chambered was somehow not a loaded weapon.

Dragline45 · July 11, 2015, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 45 auto

I would guess that both of you have very little experience with open-bolt weapons.

If you ever go to shoot one, you may be surprised by what happens when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber with a loaded mag thinking that it's "unloaded". Make sure that you have it pointed downrange, because it's going to go off.

Trying to apply your personal terminology from your limited experience to everyone doesn't work very well.

Not sure if you realize this, but this is the semi auto handgun forum. The overwhelming majority of open bolt weapons are rifles and submachine guns, I cant even find an example of a true open bolt semi-auto pistol. If we were having this discussion in the NFA section, you might have been onto something.

Skans · July 11, 2015, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Obviously lots of people on here who've never qualified with a firearm in the military.

Since I only shoot civilian firearms, military definitions don't apply to me.

stagpanther · July 11, 2015, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 45 auto
I would guess that both of you have very little experience with open-bolt weapons.

If you ever go to shoot one, you may be surprised by what happens when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber with a loaded mag thinking that it's "unloaded". Make sure that you have it pointed downrange, because it's going to go off.

Trying to apply your personal terminology from your limited experience to everyone doesn't work very well.
Not sure if you realize this, but this is the semi auto handgun forum. The overwhelming majority of open bolt weapons are rifles and submachine guns, I cant even find an example of a true open bolt semi-auto pistol. If we were having this discussion in the NFA section, you might have been onto something.

All the responses are appropriate regardless of the weapon type--the OP did not specify a particular platform. If anything, the thread was not categorized properly from the beginning while this remains a very relevant and important safety discussion to all types of firearms.

Knightsofnee · July 11, 2015, 11:24 AM

It's obviously a loaded question.

stagpanther · July 11, 2015, 12:15 PM

Quote:

It's obviously a loaded question.

You should be changed into a newt!

lifesizepotato · July 11, 2015, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 45_auto

Trying to apply your personal terminology from your limited experience to everyone doesn't work very well.

I bow to your profound and universal wisdom in showing me the error of my ways.

Or at least I would, if I said that my definition applied to all those open bolt firearms we encounter daily. I'll make further amendments for the belt-feds and the Dardick mag-fed revolvers we all have kickin' in the back of our safes.

DanTSX · July 11, 2015, 04:40 PM

Mavracer, your DI isn't here, and the consequences for an accident for misunderstanding "loaded" are far more severe than him making you guys run or do more push-ups. People can end up dead. This isn't a controlled range, so not all rounds ND's are going one direction.

Limnophile · July 11, 2015, 05:07 PM

Quote:

I realize the range probably posted the sign to avoid any confusion ... .

I'm still confused.

Quote:

No Loaded Guns or Magazines

In my mind you comply with the first prong by removing the magazine (if loaded) and clearing the chamber. To comply with the second prong you unload any rounds in the magazine then reinsert the mag into the pistol. I don't know if these common-sense measure would put me into compliance with the way the range interprets their sign.

mavracer · July 11, 2015, 05:08 PM

DanTSX,
You should work on reading comprehension, my point was to illustrate that while the military uses the term load for actually load in the chamber it most certainly considers a firearm with rounds on the mag and the mag locked in place that it is loaded and to unload the arm one must remove all rounds

TxFlyFish · July 11, 2015, 08:40 PM

If the bacon bits, sour cream, and scallions are not touching the soft interior of the baked potato then it's NOT a loaded baked potato. Sprinkling those ingredients about an uncut baked potato imho does not make it a LOADED baked potato

DanTSX · July 11, 2015, 10:25 PM

Mav, I'm talking about the guy in the gun store, and the signs there. For various reasons, the military's definitions do not apply.

Moving on....

mavracer · July 12, 2015, 12:32 AM

Quote:

For various reasons, the military's definitions do not apply.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

It's not a military definition of a loaded weapon. It's a command to load the chamber. The military considers a weapon with 1 round in the magazine a loaded weapon. The military considers a weapon with 5 rounds in the magazine a loaded weapon The military considers a weapon with 15 rounds in the magazine a loaded weapon, The military considers a weapon with 30 rounds in the magazine a loaded weapon no matter if there is a round in the chamber or not. Hence an unloaded gun for civilian or for military doesn't have any rounds in the magazine or the chamber and a loaded gun has rounds in it even if it doesn't have a round chambered.

Radny97 · July 12, 2015, 12:53 AM

The state of Utah defines a loaded gun as being a gun which requires only a single mechanical action for it to fire. This means that a loaded magazine without one in the chamber is not a loaded gun under Utah law. If it is a revolver and you have to pull the trigger twice it is also not considered loaded. It is illegal in Utah to carry a loaded gun concealed without a concealed carry permit. However I am an attorney in Utah and I know of individuals who were carrying a firearm concealed without a concealed carry permit and the prosecutor had to drop the charges because although the gun had a loaded magazine there was not one in the chamber and therefore was not considered a concealed weapon. Interesting definition given this discussion

JeffK · July 12, 2015, 01:19 AM

The way I look at it is, would I handle a gun without concern and dry-fire it, in my home or in a gun store, if it contained a loaded magazine? Absolutely NO, I would remove the magazine, clear and check the chamber, and look it over very carefully before deciding it is safe to do those things. If there is a loaded magazine in the gun, even if the chamber is empty, it is loaded and gets the full respect a loaded gun deserves.

JJ45 · July 12, 2015, 05:24 AM

In Pa. if you have a hunting rifle in your vehicle with rounds in the magazine and chamber empty it is considered loaded by the Pa Game Commision and you WILL get busted if your weapon is in this condition and they check you.

During Flintlock only season if your piece has a load in the barrel but no priming charge in the pan it is considered UNLOADED and is legal for transport in a vehicle. Same with cap locks/inlines, the possibility of ignition is the factor.

"All guns are always loaded", I think it was Jeff Cooper who said there are two kinds of shooters in the world; those who have had an accidental discharge AND THOSE WHO WILL! This is something to ponder very seriously.

Obviously Rule #1 is not technically true, it means potentially loaded and needs to be observed. Even if you observe just one of the 4 rule and break all the others you probably avoid shooting something you don't want to.

July 11, 2015, 03:33 AM	#54
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	What the US Army taught me to do in 1975, on command.. LOCK (a loaded magazine into the weapon) & LOAD (load a round into the chamber) This was the command sequence for anything that used a magazine. (and fired from the closed bolt) For weapons that did not use a magazine (belt fed) or used a magazine and fired from the Open Bolt) the commands were LOAD (insert belt or loaded mag) & MAKE READY (move bolt to the firing position) Some instructors would use Load & Make Ready for magazine fed closed bolt weapons as well. LOAD meant insert a loaded magazine, and Make Ready was the command to chamber a round. The definitions I learned and will continue to use are Loaded =ammo in the gun. round in the chamber, or not Unloaded = no ammo in the gun for transport, loaded is what ever the law says it is. and, if you must be more precise, I suggest "Ready", "live" or "hot" to indicate a round in the chamber beyond the assumption of one from the term "Loaded". Use whatever terms you feel best with, but, if you think a gun isn't loaded when there are rounds in it, but none in the chamber, I hope you never find out differently. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 11, 2015, 09:47 AM	#60
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	Wow, thought I’d get four or five responses and the thread would fade away. I didn’t count the actual responses, but it seems the general consensus is that a loaded magazine inserted into a gun equals a loaded gun even if there is nothing in the chamber. I realize the range probably posted the sign to avoid any confusion and I obviously have no issue with that. The only thing that I disagreed with was the range employee’s assertion that a handgun with a loaded magazine inserted, but no round chambered was somehow not a loaded weapon. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

July 12, 2015, 05:24 AM	#75
JJ45 Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2015 Posts: 908	Loaded In Pa. if you have a hunting rifle in your vehicle with rounds in the magazine and chamber empty it is considered loaded by the Pa Game Commision and you WILL get busted if your weapon is in this condition and they check you. During Flintlock only season if your piece has a load in the barrel but no priming charge in the pan it is considered UNLOADED and is legal for transport in a vehicle. Same with cap locks/inlines, the possibility of ignition is the factor. "All guns are always loaded", I think it was Jeff Cooper who said there are two kinds of shooters in the world; those who have had an accidental discharge AND THOSE WHO WILL! This is something to ponder very seriously. Obviously Rule #1 is not technically true, it means potentially loaded and needs to be observed. Even if you observe just one of the 4 rule and break all the others you probably avoid shooting something you don't want to.

July 11, 2015, 04:21 AM	#55
Taco-XL Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2015 Location: West Virginia Posts: 168	When i think "fully loaded" i think of how i order my burger at Five Guys.

July 11, 2015, 07:47 AM	#57
DanTSX Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Posts: 318	45 auto, you are projecting. My experience isn't limited. To be clear, I am talking about the Army qualification range commands you cited. These commands and other regulations are rooted in older weapon types than we are talking about. Noteably, applied from bolt action arms as another poster thoughtfully pointed out. Would it be too much to read the entire conversation for context before admonishing me or berating anyone who didn't serve as an uneducated fool? You were taught a method that addressed the lowest common denominator to keep every joe who never touched a gun before safe and operating on the same page. That works for boot. (Maybe) but out here in the real world, we are having this very discussion of what it means when someone wants fool around with loaded ammunition supplies in the presence of cold guns. Oh I know what happens on an open bolt firearm. Don't assume so much.

July 11, 2015, 09:04 AM	#58
osbornk Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2012 Location: Mountains of Appalachia Posts: 1,598	To me, it's simple. If there is ammo in the weapon, it's loaded. If it can be fired without adding anything, it's loaded.

July 11, 2015, 11:24 AM	#64
Knightsofnee Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2013 Posts: 150	It's obviously a loaded question.

July 11, 2015, 04:40 PM	#67
DanTSX Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Posts: 318	Mavracer, your DI isn't here, and the consequences for an accident for misunderstanding "loaded" are far more severe than him making you guys run or do more push-ups. People can end up dead. This isn't a controlled range, so not all rounds ND's are going one direction.

July 11, 2015, 08:40 PM	#70
TxFlyFish Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Posts: 1,246	If the bacon bits, sour cream, and scallions are not touching the soft interior of the baked potato then it's NOT a loaded baked potato. Sprinkling those ingredients about an uncut baked potato imho does not make it a LOADED baked potato

July 11, 2015, 10:25 PM	#71
DanTSX Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Posts: 318	Mav, I'm talking about the guy in the gun store, and the signs there. For various reasons, the military's definitions do not apply. Moving on....

July 12, 2015, 12:53 AM	#73
Radny97 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2015 Posts: 1,021	The state of Utah defines a loaded gun as being a gun which requires only a single mechanical action for it to fire. This means that a loaded magazine without one in the chamber is not a loaded gun under Utah law. If it is a revolver and you have to pull the trigger twice it is also not considered loaded. It is illegal in Utah to carry a loaded gun concealed without a concealed carry permit. However I am an attorney in Utah and I know of individuals who were carrying a firearm concealed without a concealed carry permit and the prosecutor had to drop the charges because although the gun had a loaded magazine there was not one in the chamber and therefore was not considered a concealed weapon. Interesting definition given this discussion

July 12, 2015, 01:19 AM	#74
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	The way I look at it is, would I handle a gun without concern and dry-fire it, in my home or in a gun store, if it contained a loaded magazine? Absolutely NO, I would remove the magazine, clear and check the chamber, and look it over very carefully before deciding it is safe to do those things. If there is a loaded magazine in the gun, even if the chamber is empty, it is loaded and gets the full respect a loaded gun deserves.