Knock on my door at 11pm - Page 2

Xfire68 · September 6, 2010, 12:10 PM

First I want to thank you for your long service to our country! Your job is a hard one and you should be paid better so you and your loved ones do not have to live in areas such as this!

You did the right thing. If you are in a known crime area and you don't "normally" have visitors at 11pm then by all means have your guard up and watch out for bad guys. Heck in this day and age we need to be on guard even in the middle of the day! There have been a number of daylight robberies where they are cleaning out the houses with moving vans in our area out in the country!

FoxtrotRomeo · September 6, 2010, 12:20 PM

Nice job and thank you for your service to our country. Guy I went to school with since 2nd grade was Marine Recon. Not sure on what unit but I know he did 2 tours in the Sandbox and is now on his way today to the Stan. He said he got out of recon in '05 so I think he's standard infantry now.

Anyway, yeah it depends on what you wanna do. If you know they can hear the slide from outside you can rack it and play with their head a lil bit by not showing the pistol. The won't see it but they're not sure you don't have it either. That would be more my style, let the unknown start messing with their head. Same trick as a sniper in battle just a lil different. "I heard the shot where is he?" except now "What's in his hand behind the door frame? Was that a gun I heard?" "Geez I don't know about this anymore I don't wanna get shot. I need to get lost."

As for the peephole, you could do a quick check, peep and as you do, roll away from the door towards the knob, if they level your door you're prolly gonna be able to get them on the way in as your motion carries you away from the door and away from the direction the door will want to swing while being broken.

RimfireChris · September 6, 2010, 12:59 PM

Thanks for all you do for the rest of us who have "normal" lives. You did good, I think, I had a similar experience a good many years ago, just a bit scarier. Don't over think it and judge yourself, very often that little voice in your head that says "THIS ISN'T RIGHT!!" is correct. I know, I've buried friends who didn't listen to it.

357 Python · September 6, 2010, 07:57 PM

Thank you for your service and commitment. Maybe you should consider some sort of paddle holster that carries the pistol behind the hip. That way you can answer the door and not run the risk of scaring or offending somebody. What would have happened if it had been a police officer or deuty sheriff looking for someone? How would the officer react to someone in front of them holding a gun even if it is pointed in a safe direction? Just a couple of things that could be avoided or at least smoothed over with the holster behind the hip. Also if your door has a peep hole cut the lights off before you look through it at night. Some gangbanger who just wants to "hit" anyone would see the light in the peep hole go out and think you are standing there and shoot through the door. If you cut the lights off first and wait a few seconds and they do shoot, the rounds might not hit you; particularly if you stand to the side of the door during those few seconds.

Rob228 · September 6, 2010, 08:04 PM

I have a few holsters that would do the trick, but it being that late at night I wasn't about to get one set up. I did ask who it was, had it been the police I'm fairly certain they would have announced it through the door.
Luckily the only light that was on was the TV, but I didn't use the peephole, that is very sound advice you give in that respect, it is completely telegraphing to the person outside that you are right there. Thanks for the input!

Catfishman · September 6, 2010, 10:06 PM

I kinda like the fact that you opened the door with a gun in your hand. I doubt you will have as much trouble out of the locals now that you've done that. That guy, confused teenager or armed robber, will tell that story many times.

Cowering inside deters no one. They'll be back. You need to do something to let them know that you are "That Guy" Clint Eastwood spoke of in Gran Torino.
If someone is maddog killer enough to instantly blast you with a shotgun when you open the door. They probably wouldn't have knocked softly to see if you were home.

demigod · September 7, 2010, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Should I have gotten the pistol out?

Unless I can see that I know the person knocking... I never answer the door unarmed.... regardless of the time of day or who is knocking... even if it's a female

People could send a female to knock and then rush the door once it's unlocked.

markj · September 7, 2010, 04:51 PM

Marines

solve every problem with a gun

works for some. My nephew was in Okinowa last year he is a marine too. Now he is in Afgan, I expect he would have reacted the same. Good defense, glad you didnt shoot the kid.

My Uncle is also a marine living in CA, he is like that guy in gran torino

Korean war vet. He answers his door late at night with a 1911 too.

Sgt.Saputo · September 7, 2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Should I have gotten the pistol out?

I live out in the woods, it take waaaaaay to long for police to get to my house to rely on their help. Any time I'm alone, I keep a firearm close by to keep me company (usually my Colt 1903). When it's late and someone comes to my house unannounced my gun comes with me to answer the door. I don't brandish it, but just because they don't know I have it doesn't mean I don't.

357 Python · September 7, 2010, 05:05 PM

Just because someone says they are "Police" when you ask doesn't mean they are. Even if they are in uniform they could be BGs intent on home invasion. Ask them their name and unit number so you can call the station and verify that they are legit. Years ago I worked a midnight - 8 AM shift and was in bed when there was a knock on the door. My wife went to the door and saw through a window in the door two men dressed in police uniforms. She came and got me up. I got dressed and answered. I was extremely familair with the local city police uniform (Police Explorer in the late 1970s). There had been a break in at neighbors garage behind our apartment and they wanted to see if anyone had seen anything.I also told them that with so much police stuff being bought through the mail my wife wasn't sure if they were real or not. They understood and were glad someone took the time to check. Also remember that uniforms do occasionally get stolen.

Danny45 · September 7, 2010, 05:23 PM

You did good Marine. Thanks for your service.

The only thing that concerns me is that he now knows you have firearms inside the apartment. They can probably assume that you don't take the with you when you leave for the base. Make sure you have them secured so they can't get them during a break-in while you're gone.

Hotrod4u · September 7, 2010, 10:03 PM

Howdy all! I do not post to internet forums because I have certain family and career responsibilities that take up the bulk of my time. However, I decided to make an exception in this regard. Keep in mind, I am not attempting to "jack" this thread or make anyone angry, but simply trying to provide a second viewpoint. I am not trying to be insensitive or argumentative, but simply trying to provide information that would be helpful to the OP.

Most everyone who has replied to this thread have been saying "good job" to the OP because of his military status. It is an officer's job to arrest anyone who has broken the law. Of course, there is discretion, but when the crime involves a minor and especially firearms then the discretion becomes limited. I would not be able to let someone off with a warning for committing the crime of menacing against a minor. I would simply make the arrest and allow the Prosecutor to figure out the "next step".

Remember that children will be children. They will knock on doors, step on your toes and maybe even take their paintball guns and spray your garage. However, there are very limited circumstances where you can respond in kind. For example, if a 5 year old stamps on your toe with all his might then you cannot do the same in return. The court system and law enforcement tends to take a very dim view of any assault against a small child no matter what the reason. Even convicted criminals tend to take a very dim view of the issue.

You stated you believed the child was part of a burglary ring, but that is your assumption not based upon any fact. Simply because a child shows up knocking at a door does not demonstrate anything. I have had neighborhood children knocking at my door and running off...I have even had neighborhood children egg my house and spray it with paintballs. There is nothing I can do, but grin and bear it. Its just how it goes with children. Of course, I could call the police and make complaints against the children, but I think that would make it worse and provoke them further.

Lets say you had clear and convincing evidence the child was part of a burglary ring in the area. Lets say you had a video tape of the child conspiring with a group of known burglars discussing how they would rob your home. Even in that circumstance, there is still no reason to display your weapon to this child...that is still menacing. If you believe the child is part of a ring, then call the police and let them handle it.

My advice...do not ever display your weapon to a young child. You might be committing the crime of menacing. If you were to point that weapon then that would be assault. You may say you did not point it, but then the child might say different and then it will come down to who they believe... The judges in my locality will give you a hefty sentence for any crime against a child. There is also a few other crimes that I could probably fit this circumstance under like child abuse. It doesnt matter what the child was there for, the fact is that you were mentally abusing this child through intimidation with a firearm. You could easily be looking at a few years in prison if you got in front of the wrong judge.

Buy renter's insurance. Do not go around trying intimidate the neighborhood kids with your firearm. That will land you in jail and I would arrest you. You can say you are a Medal of Honor winner...you can say that you thought the kid was part of a ring, but I have to do my job in the end which will include taking you to jail and impounding your weapon. Your fight should be with an insurance company and not someone's child.

Frankly speaking, if you displayed your weapon to any of my children then I would take it personally. Even if my children were actively causing trouble, then I would still make a complaint against you. The simple fact is that these are my children and, even if they were knocking on your door, there is no reason to be racking your 1911 or displaying it to them. I would take serious offense at the issue, file a criminal complaint as well as sue you in civil court.

Hoskins · September 7, 2010, 10:51 PM

Rob, hey brother, if I were you then I would've went to condition 1 before opening the door. Additionally, if you didn't have to open the door then I wouldn't have. I would've told the dude to leave & observed the outside. If the guy didn't leave & continued his questions or began harrassing you, then I would announce that you were armed & were calling the police.

That in itself could've sent the guy running. If worse come to worse & the guy attempted to make entry to your house, you could've fired from a covered position & additionally the guy is "IN" your house & would make your case of self defense much more beliveable in court.

Semper Fi brother;
SSgt Hoskins

Ike1371 · September 8, 2010, 01:27 AM

I think you did an excellent job. Always best to be prepared than not. You kept a good mind set during the event! Whatever their intentions were, they now know that your door is not the door to be knocking on at 11 pm.

1. Knocking on someones door at 11 pm?
2. Running off as you open the door?
3. Your knowledge of the crime rate in the area.

Sounds pretty shady to me. Great job Marine!

SEMPER FI Devil pup!

Rob228 · September 8, 2010, 07:55 AM

Hotrod,
There is a difference between a 16 year old and a 5 year old. The last group of kids that went around paint-balling from their car got arrested on assault charges, so you don't have to simply grin and bear it. I did not state that he was part of a burglary ring, I stated my assumptions as to what he was up to. I do have renters insurance, and I do not go around trying to intimidate neighbors kids with a firearm. This was someone who I have never seen in the apartment complex before, and I have every right to stay within the threshold of my apartment with a firearm in my hand at 11PM when someone starts knocking on the door.

Hoskins · September 8, 2010, 08:39 AM

Sigh...I went back and read Hot Rod's post... Rob, you did good!

Skans · September 8, 2010, 09:53 AM

At 11 pm - open the door???? No way! I would have just sat there quietly, about 15 feet from my front door, but in an area where I could see the windows too, with a round chambered and trigger finger pressed up against the frame, just above the trigger, where I like to keep it for safety reasons.

Stay put, keep alert and very quitely listen is all I would do - gun in hand ready to go, and cell phone nearby. I might do a quick check of other doors and windows, if I couldn't see them where I was.

RimfireChris · September 8, 2010, 09:53 AM

(sniff, sniff) I smell an anti. :barf:

Sefner · September 8, 2010, 09:54 AM

I searched California's law database for the crime of "menacing" and found nothing. I did find California's law (where OP resides) for brandishing though. In order to be brandishing a firearm, all of the following must be true:

Quote:

1. that you drew or exhibited a deadly weapon or firearm in the presence of another person,

2. that either

a. you did so in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or

b. you did so unlawfully in a fight or quarrel, and

3. that you were not acting in self-defense or in the defense of another person at the time.2

So "menacing" is out, and from the OP's description of events, he did not brandish a weapon (number 2 is not true).

Quote:

Originally Posted by poster

I would not be able to let someone off with a warning for committing the crime of menacing against a minor. I would simply make the arrest and allow the Prosecutor to figure out the "next step".

So the better option is to arrest OP, incurring on them the personal, time, legal, and frustration costs that arrest entails, and just "let the prosecutor figure it out"? And remember, no crime has been committed, except maybe conspiracy to commit robbery (by the "kid"). This is the attitude that makes many civilians distrust police.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poster

kid... kids... small child... child...

This does not cut it for me. Having seen the videos of kids as young as 13 and 14 committing murder (remember where that kid in Chicago was randomly beaten to death with a 2x4 by middle schoolers?), not to mention larceny and theft, plus, OP did not know who was behind that door when he opened it. It could have been Hulk Hogan for all he knew.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poster

You might be committing the crime of menacing.

Again, I was unable to find such a thing in California law. It does exist in common law as basically assault with a deadly weapon. Here is a definition of menacing:

Quote:

A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:

He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm;

...

Menacing in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

S 120.15 Menacing in the third degree.

A person is guilty of menacing in the third degree when, by physical menace, he or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person in fear of death, imminent serious physical injury or physical injury.

Menacing in the third degree is a class B misdemeanor.

And again, even by the definition of "menacing" and the OP's retelling of the events, no crime was committed. I guess he should be arrested and let the court system figure it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poster

I have even had neighborhood children egg my house and spray it with paintballs. There is nothing I can do, but grin and bear it.

Quote is based on California law (for consistency)

Quote:

Vandalism occurs when one of the following is done to property that is not your own:

Defacing with graffiti
Damaging
Destroying

...

Greater than $400 (can be charged as a misdemeanor or felony): Up to one year in jail and fines up to $10,000

Less than $400 is a misdemeanor on the site. You do not have to just grin and bear it. Any destruction or damaging of your property is vandalism and is a crime punishable by jail time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poster

If you were to point that weapon then that would be assault. You may say you did not point it, but then the child might say different and then it will come down to who they believe.

It would be assault with a deadly weapon and brandishing. And it is a good question, who will they believe? The United States Marine who peaceably minding his own business in his place of residence or the kid who knocked on the door at 11pm, softly, asked for a generic name, then when was confronted, fled, and asked for someone who does not live there? I would not be surprised if it turned out this kid had priors. Who will "they" believe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by poster

There is also a few other crimes that I could probably fit this circumstance under like child abuse. It doesnt matter what the child was there for, the fact is that you were mentally abusing this child through intimidation with a firearm. You could easily be looking at a few years in prison if you got in front of the wrong judge.

Aside from the fact that someone finds it necessary to find laws that "could probably fit this circumstance" instead of actually enforcing the laws, here are the definitions of child abuse in California:

From Penal Code §11164, et seq. of California law:

Quote:

Sexual abuse or exploitation as listed by incident in 11165.1; neglect; willful cruelty or unjustifiable punishment; any physical injury inflicted other than by accidental means

It goes on in Penal Code §11164.3 (the only relevant code I could find):

Quote:

'Willful cruelty or unjustifiable punishment of a child' means a situation where any person willfully causes or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon, unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child, willfully causes or permits the person or health of the child to be placed in a situation such that his or her person or health is endangered.

And Penal Code §11164.6:

Quote:

'Child abuse or neglect' includes physical injury inflicted by other than accidental means upon a child by another person, sexual abuse, neglect, willful cruelty or unjustifiable punishment, unlawful corporal punishment or injury.

So while a sneaky prosecutor or judge may indeed be able to twist the laws, the key word is "Unjustifiably" in §11164.3. I would also have a hard time believing that a firearm, held down at the side, that is shown while a person is IN THEIR OWN HOME, late at night, to a child (and they didn't know it was a child) that softly knocks on the door and subsequently flees justifies willfully inflicting mental anguish. Sorry, this one isn't happening either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poster

It doesnt matter what the child was there for

Yes, it does matter. In a huge way. Many many states (not looking this one up in California, switching to the general here) have laws that make criminals give up many rights during the commission of a crime. For instance, we don't charge self-defense shooters with murder because the person they shot was there to commit a crime. Many states, mine included, also have statutes that make any other outcome resulting from the commission of a crime the fault of the criminal. For instance, if two guys invade a home and one is killed in justifiable self-defense and the other is caught, the surviving criminal is charged with murder or negligent homicide because his choice to commit a crime resulted in the death of another person. This has happened before. So yes, the law does take into account a person's motive when they are committing any given act.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poster

I have to do my job in the end which will include taking you to jail and impounding your weapon.

I don't know what "your" job is, but I do know it's not to arrest and disarm innocent people when no crime has been committed just because you are ignorant of your jurisdiction's law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poster

Frankly speaking, if you displayed your weapon to any of my children then I would take it personally. Even if my children were actively causing trouble, then I would still make a complaint against you. The simple fact is that these are my children and, even if they were knocking on your door, there is no reason to be racking your 1911 or displaying it to them. I would take serious offense at the issue, file a criminal complaint as well as sue you in civil court.

Emphasis mine, just to point out the inanity of this statement.

That is unfortunate and the reason that many people are unwilling to use their weapons in self-defense, because of the fear of lawsuits should they use it. I wonder how many crimes have been committed even though the victim, or a passerby was armed but did not use their weapon for fear of litigation.

I hope this puts that one to rest.

http://www.mycaliforniadefenselawyer...ndalism-arson/
http://www.shouselaw.com/brandishing-weapon-pc417.html
http://library.adoption.com/articles...alifornia.html

Hotrod4u · September 8, 2010, 10:38 AM

All children will cause trouble and I do mean that in a very general sense. They will knock on someone's door, they will get into things, they will take things that are not theirs... If you are a parent, and I suspect many individuals posting in this thread are not, then you know what I mean. Society recognizes that children will cause trouble and, as an adult, you are supposed to understand that they will.

As a parent, I will defend my son or daughter's actions. I will apologize for them when I see there is a need for an apology. However, I cannot justify the intimidation of a small unarmed child with a firearm. If you wave your 1911 at my son or daughter, then I would definately file a complaint. There is a host of laws out there regarding child abuse and child endangerment. Most parents I know would not simply let this one go. If you waved a weapon at their child, then they are going to react negatively.

The "defense of your home" argument is not applicable to this situation. You have an unarmed child knocking on the door and that is all you know. The child could be lost or just playing games. Is it commonplace and normal to come to the door with firearm in hand when an unarmed child is at the door? Is it commonplace for children to play games like knocking on someone's door? The original poster was doing something that goes against the norm and, frankly, irresponsible.

The OP had the option to leave the door closed. He was obviously uncomfortable with the situation so the door should have been left closed. However, he chose to open the door with a weapon in hand and I take it he was trying to intimidate the person on the other end. In this case, the person on the other end was a small unarmed child. Intimidating and threatening a child can get you into trouble no matter what the child is doing. My suggestion is not to approach small children in this manner. It will not be tolerated by anyone and a dim view will be taken by any court or law enforcement officer.

As for the cost of defense the OP would have to pay as a result of a arrest, well, thats just the way it goes. When you violate a law, then you put yourself at risk for arrest. It doesnt matter if you did not really know or thought what you were doing was right. As an owner of a firearm, you have to use the weapon in strict accordance with the law. By holding a weapon in your hand, you have a great amount of responsibility and you should know what is right. Is arming yourself for a possible attack by an unarmed small child the right thing to do? Dont you think a parent is going to say something to you if you racked the slide of your 1911 and displayed it to their child? You cant just do something like that without some type of consequence.

RimfireChris · September 8, 2010, 10:59 AM

You did read thOP's post, yes? Where do you get "small" child anywhere in that? And why was a small, innocent child out running the streets at 11pm? And having a gun in your hand is abusing a child? OMG, does that mean if a neighbor kid sees me putting a gun in my car for a trip to the range, even if, like the OP, it wasn't pointed at them I can be charged?

Sefner · September 8, 2010, 11:11 AM

Very clearly there is some misinformation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP

I rack the slide and engage the safety and answer the door with the pistol set up for a retention drill ( position 2 in a draw). The kid is already running as the door comes open, as I think he heard the slide rack. HE stops about 30 feet away and looks at me like he knows something that I don't, a big know it all grin on his face, and asks where Blake is.

Notice the order of events. OP Did not know there was a "kid" at the door until he opened it. Also, the "kid" didn't seem very threatened, being that he STOPPED and turned around. And even after that, the "kid"'s actions were suspicious. It could have been anyone behind that door.

Quote:

As for the cost of defense the OP would have to pay as a result of a arrest, well, thats just the way it goes. When you violate a law, then you put yourself at risk for arrest.

That is NOT "just the way it goes". As I said earlier, given OP's rendition of the events, no law was broken. Arresting him would be an injustice, and police are supposed to be agents of justice. Innocent people being arrested and charged with crimes is not "just the way it goes". Wow.

Again, from what I can tell, no law has been broken.

Skans · September 8, 2010, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Frankly speaking, if you displayed your weapon to any of my children then I would take it personally. Even if my children were actively causing trouble, then I would still make a complaint against you. The simple fact is that these are my children and, even if they were knocking on your door, there is no reason to be racking your 1911 or displaying it to them. I would take serious offense at the issue, file a criminal complaint as well as sue you in civil court.

If someone bangs on your door late at night, 11:00 pm, uninvited, it's reasonable for the guy answering the door to have a gun in his hand. This is not "flashing" a gun in public. Nor, is it being pointed in a threatening manner. No law that I know of says you can't hold your gun while answering your door. I suppose it varies from state to state. Again, we're not talking about warning shots, threats, pointing a weapon at anyone. Just holding a gun while answering the door. Are you really going to arrest someone for that? What law was broken?

Rob228 · September 8, 2010, 01:45 PM

I did not wave my pistol at any time, I had it high up against my body, like I said, ready for a retention drill should there have been an immediate threat when I opened the door. I did not know at the time who was knocking on my door, be it a child or an actual threat. And please, lets stop playing everything down, and refer to the individual as what he was, a teenager.

If you are that ready to throw out child abuse accusations for me racking a slide behind a closed door and opening my door the safest way I saw fit, I have to ask this: If your child is running around knocking on strangers doors at 11pm, does that make you guilty of criminal neglect?

Skans · September 8, 2010, 02:28 PM

Rob, I've got a question for you - why did you open the door at 11:00 pm?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you did anything wrong by having a gun in your hand by your side - I would have done the same.....if I decided to open the door. I just don't understand why you would open the door. It's way too easy for 2-3 thugs to overpower you, even if you have a gun, once you open that door. For me, I'd have to use my right (strong) hand to open the door which means it ain't on the gun - or even if I used my left hand, my gun hand would not be in a position where I could defend myself. Even if i had a left-opening door, I'd feel like I'm at a disadvantage if I thought there was a real possiblity of an attack. I'd really rather stand back and wait for the perp to jimmy/break-down the door, as their hands will be pre-occupied and mine will be doing nothing but operating my gun.

September 6, 2010, 12:10 PM	#26
Xfire68 Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2010 Location: Communist State of IL. Posts: 1,562	First I want to thank you for your long service to our country! Your job is a hard one and you should be paid better so you and your loved ones do not have to live in areas such as this! You did the right thing. If you are in a known crime area and you don't "normally" have visitors at 11pm then by all means have your guard up and watch out for bad guys. Heck in this day and age we need to be on guard even in the middle of the day! There have been a number of daylight robberies where they are cleaning out the houses with moving vans in our area out in the country! __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF Member

September 6, 2010, 12:20 PM	#27
FoxtrotRomeo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2010 Posts: 487	Nice job and thank you for your service to our country. Guy I went to school with since 2nd grade was Marine Recon. Not sure on what unit but I know he did 2 tours in the Sandbox and is now on his way today to the Stan. He said he got out of recon in '05 so I think he's standard infantry now. Anyway, yeah it depends on what you wanna do. If you know they can hear the slide from outside you can rack it and play with their head a lil bit by not showing the pistol. The won't see it but they're not sure you don't have it either. That would be more my style, let the unknown start messing with their head. Same trick as a sniper in battle just a lil different. "I heard the shot where is he?" except now "What's in his hand behind the door frame? Was that a gun I heard?" "Geez I don't know about this anymore I don't wanna get shot. I need to get lost." As for the peephole, you could do a quick check, peep and as you do, roll away from the door towards the knob, if they level your door you're prolly gonna be able to get them on the way in as your motion carries you away from the door and away from the direction the door will want to swing while being broken. __________________ "The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly." - Albert Einstein]

September 6, 2010, 12:59 PM	#28
RimfireChris Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 421	Thanks for all you do for the rest of us who have "normal" lives. You did good, I think, I had a similar experience a good many years ago, just a bit scarier. Don't over think it and judge yourself, very often that little voice in your head that says "THIS ISN'T RIGHT!!" is correct. I know, I've buried friends who didn't listen to it. __________________ Mal-"Jayne, how many weapons you plan on takin', you only got the two arms." Jayne-"Well I just get excitable as to choice-like to keep my options open."

September 7, 2010, 05:23 PM	#36
Danny45 Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2000 Location: Tulsa Oklahoma Posts: 434	You did good Marine. Thanks for your service. The only thing that concerns me is that he now knows you have firearms inside the apartment. They can probably assume that you don't take the with you when you leave for the base. Make sure you have them secured so they can't get them during a break-in while you're gone. __________________ Danny

September 7, 2010, 10:03 PM	#37
Hotrod4u Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2010 Posts: 14	Howdy all! I do not post to internet forums because I have certain family and career responsibilities that take up the bulk of my time. However, I decided to make an exception in this regard. Keep in mind, I am not attempting to "jack" this thread or make anyone angry, but simply trying to provide a second viewpoint. I am not trying to be insensitive or argumentative, but simply trying to provide information that would be helpful to the OP. Most everyone who has replied to this thread have been saying "good job" to the OP because of his military status. It is an officer's job to arrest anyone who has broken the law. Of course, there is discretion, but when the crime involves a minor and especially firearms then the discretion becomes limited. I would not be able to let someone off with a warning for committing the crime of menacing against a minor. I would simply make the arrest and allow the Prosecutor to figure out the "next step". Remember that children will be children. They will knock on doors, step on your toes and maybe even take their paintball guns and spray your garage. However, there are very limited circumstances where you can respond in kind. For example, if a 5 year old stamps on your toe with all his might then you cannot do the same in return. The court system and law enforcement tends to take a very dim view of any assault against a small child no matter what the reason. Even convicted criminals tend to take a very dim view of the issue. You stated you believed the child was part of a burglary ring, but that is your assumption not based upon any fact. Simply because a child shows up knocking at a door does not demonstrate anything. I have had neighborhood children knocking at my door and running off...I have even had neighborhood children egg my house and spray it with paintballs. There is nothing I can do, but grin and bear it. Its just how it goes with children. Of course, I could call the police and make complaints against the children, but I think that would make it worse and provoke them further. Lets say you had clear and convincing evidence the child was part of a burglary ring in the area. Lets say you had a video tape of the child conspiring with a group of known burglars discussing how they would rob your home. Even in that circumstance, there is still no reason to display your weapon to this child...that is still menacing. If you believe the child is part of a ring, then call the police and let them handle it. My advice...do not ever display your weapon to a young child. You might be committing the crime of menacing. If you were to point that weapon then that would be assault. You may say you did not point it, but then the child might say different and then it will come down to who they believe... The judges in my locality will give you a hefty sentence for any crime against a child. There is also a few other crimes that I could probably fit this circumstance under like child abuse. It doesnt matter what the child was there for, the fact is that you were mentally abusing this child through intimidation with a firearm. You could easily be looking at a few years in prison if you got in front of the wrong judge. Buy renter's insurance. Do not go around trying intimidate the neighborhood kids with your firearm. That will land you in jail and I would arrest you. You can say you are a Medal of Honor winner...you can say that you thought the kid was part of a ring, but I have to do my job in the end which will include taking you to jail and impounding your weapon. Your fight should be with an insurance company and not someone's child. Frankly speaking, if you displayed your weapon to any of my children then I would take it personally. Even if my children were actively causing trouble, then I would still make a complaint against you. The simple fact is that these are my children and, even if they were knocking on your door, there is no reason to be racking your 1911 or displaying it to them. I would take serious offense at the issue, file a criminal complaint as well as sue you in civil court. Last edited by Hotrod4u; September 7, 2010 at 10:45 PM.

September 6, 2010, 07:57 PM	#29
357 Python Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 941	Thank you for your service and commitment. Maybe you should consider some sort of paddle holster that carries the pistol behind the hip. That way you can answer the door and not run the risk of scaring or offending somebody. What would have happened if it had been a police officer or deuty sheriff looking for someone? How would the officer react to someone in front of them holding a gun even if it is pointed in a safe direction? Just a couple of things that could be avoided or at least smoothed over with the holster behind the hip. Also if your door has a peep hole cut the lights off before you look through it at night. Some gangbanger who just wants to "hit" anyone would see the light in the peep hole go out and think you are standing there and shoot through the door. If you cut the lights off first and wait a few seconds and they do shoot, the rounds might not hit you; particularly if you stand to the side of the door during those few seconds.

September 6, 2010, 08:04 PM	#30
Rob228 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2010 Location: Hampstead NC Posts: 1,450	I have a few holsters that would do the trick, but it being that late at night I wasn't about to get one set up. I did ask who it was, had it been the police I'm fairly certain they would have announced it through the door. Luckily the only light that was on was the TV, but I didn't use the peephole, that is very sound advice you give in that respect, it is completely telegraphing to the person outside that you are right there. Thanks for the input!

September 6, 2010, 10:06 PM	#31
Catfishman Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Location: Mississippi Posts: 727	I kinda like the fact that you opened the door with a gun in your hand. I doubt you will have as much trouble out of the locals now that you've done that. That guy, confused teenager or armed robber, will tell that story many times. Cowering inside deters no one. They'll be back. You need to do something to let them know that you are "That Guy" Clint Eastwood spoke of in Gran Torino. If someone is maddog killer enough to instantly blast you with a shotgun when you open the door. They probably wouldn't have knocked softly to see if you were home.

September 7, 2010, 04:51 PM	#33
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	Marines solve every problem with a gun works for some. My nephew was in Okinowa last year he is a marine too. Now he is in Afgan, I expect he would have reacted the same. Good defense, glad you didnt shoot the kid. My Uncle is also a marine living in CA, he is like that guy in gran torino Korean war vet. He answers his door late at night with a 1911 too.

September 7, 2010, 05:05 PM	#35
357 Python Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 941	Just because someone says they are "Police" when you ask doesn't mean they are. Even if they are in uniform they could be BGs intent on home invasion. Ask them their name and unit number so you can call the station and verify that they are legit. Years ago I worked a midnight - 8 AM shift and was in bed when there was a knock on the door. My wife went to the door and saw through a window in the door two men dressed in police uniforms. She came and got me up. I got dressed and answered. I was extremely familair with the local city police uniform (Police Explorer in the late 1970s). There had been a break in at neighbors garage behind our apartment and they wanted to see if anyone had seen anything.I also told them that with so much police stuff being bought through the mail my wife wasn't sure if they were real or not. They understood and were glad someone took the time to check. Also remember that uniforms do occasionally get stolen.

September 7, 2010, 10:51 PM	#38
Hoskins Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2010 Posts: 240	Rob, hey brother, if I were you then I would've went to condition 1 before opening the door. Additionally, if you didn't have to open the door then I wouldn't have. I would've told the dude to leave & observed the outside. If the guy didn't leave & continued his questions or began harrassing you, then I would announce that you were armed & were calling the police. That in itself could've sent the guy running. If worse come to worse & the guy attempted to make entry to your house, you could've fired from a covered position & additionally the guy is "IN" your house & would make your case of self defense much more beliveable in court. Semper Fi brother; SSgt Hoskins

September 8, 2010, 01:27 AM	#39
Ike1371 Member Join Date: April 8, 2009 Location: Thurston county, WA Posts: 31	I think you did an excellent job. Always best to be prepared than not. You kept a good mind set during the event! Whatever their intentions were, they now know that your door is not the door to be knocking on at 11 pm. 1. Knocking on someones door at 11 pm? 2. Running off as you open the door? 3. Your knowledge of the crime rate in the area. Sounds pretty shady to me. Great job Marine! SEMPER FI Devil pup!

September 8, 2010, 07:55 AM	#40
Rob228 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2010 Location: Hampstead NC Posts: 1,450	Hotrod, There is a difference between a 16 year old and a 5 year old. The last group of kids that went around paint-balling from their car got arrested on assault charges, so you don't have to simply grin and bear it. I did not state that he was part of a burglary ring, I stated my assumptions as to what he was up to. I do have renters insurance, and I do not go around trying to intimidate neighbors kids with a firearm. This was someone who I have never seen in the apartment complex before, and I have every right to stay within the threshold of my apartment with a firearm in my hand at 11PM when someone starts knocking on the door.

September 8, 2010, 08:39 AM	#41
Hoskins Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2010 Posts: 240	Sigh...I went back and read Hot Rod's post... Rob, you did good!

September 8, 2010, 09:53 AM	#42
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	At 11 pm - open the door???? No way! I would have just sat there quietly, about 15 feet from my front door, but in an area where I could see the windows too, with a round chambered and trigger finger pressed up against the frame, just above the trigger, where I like to keep it for safety reasons. Stay put, keep alert and very quitely listen is all I would do - gun in hand ready to go, and cell phone nearby. I might do a quick check of other doors and windows, if I couldn't see them where I was.

September 8, 2010, 09:53 AM	#43
RimfireChris Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 421	(sniff, sniff) I smell an anti. :barf: __________________ Mal-"Jayne, how many weapons you plan on takin', you only got the two arms." Jayne-"Well I just get excitable as to choice-like to keep my options open."

September 8, 2010, 10:38 AM	#45
Hotrod4u Junior Member Join Date: September 7, 2010 Posts: 14	All children will cause trouble and I do mean that in a very general sense. They will knock on someone's door, they will get into things, they will take things that are not theirs... If you are a parent, and I suspect many individuals posting in this thread are not, then you know what I mean. Society recognizes that children will cause trouble and, as an adult, you are supposed to understand that they will. As a parent, I will defend my son or daughter's actions. I will apologize for them when I see there is a need for an apology. However, I cannot justify the intimidation of a small unarmed child with a firearm. If you wave your 1911 at my son or daughter, then I would definately file a complaint. There is a host of laws out there regarding child abuse and child endangerment. Most parents I know would not simply let this one go. If you waved a weapon at their child, then they are going to react negatively. The "defense of your home" argument is not applicable to this situation. You have an unarmed child knocking on the door and that is all you know. The child could be lost or just playing games. Is it commonplace and normal to come to the door with firearm in hand when an unarmed child is at the door? Is it commonplace for children to play games like knocking on someone's door? The original poster was doing something that goes against the norm and, frankly, irresponsible. The OP had the option to leave the door closed. He was obviously uncomfortable with the situation so the door should have been left closed. However, he chose to open the door with a weapon in hand and I take it he was trying to intimidate the person on the other end. In this case, the person on the other end was a small unarmed child. Intimidating and threatening a child can get you into trouble no matter what the child is doing. My suggestion is not to approach small children in this manner. It will not be tolerated by anyone and a dim view will be taken by any court or law enforcement officer. As for the cost of defense the OP would have to pay as a result of a arrest, well, thats just the way it goes. When you violate a law, then you put yourself at risk for arrest. It doesnt matter if you did not really know or thought what you were doing was right. As an owner of a firearm, you have to use the weapon in strict accordance with the law. By holding a weapon in your hand, you have a great amount of responsibility and you should know what is right. Is arming yourself for a possible attack by an unarmed small child the right thing to do? Dont you think a parent is going to say something to you if you racked the slide of your 1911 and displayed it to their child? You cant just do something like that without some type of consequence. Last edited by Hotrod4u; September 8, 2010 at 10:43 AM.

September 8, 2010, 10:59 AM	#46
RimfireChris Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 421	You did read thOP's post, yes? Where do you get "small" child anywhere in that? And why was a small, innocent child out running the streets at 11pm? And having a gun in your hand is abusing a child? OMG, does that mean if a neighbor kid sees me putting a gun in my car for a trip to the range, even if, like the OP, it wasn't pointed at them I can be charged? __________________ Mal-"Jayne, how many weapons you plan on takin', you only got the two arms." Jayne-"Well I just get excitable as to choice-like to keep my options open."

September 8, 2010, 01:45 PM	#49
Rob228 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2010 Location: Hampstead NC Posts: 1,450	I did not wave my pistol at any time, I had it high up against my body, like I said, ready for a retention drill should there have been an immediate threat when I opened the door. I did not know at the time who was knocking on my door, be it a child or an actual threat. And please, lets stop playing everything down, and refer to the individual as what he was, a teenager. If you are that ready to throw out child abuse accusations for me racking a slide behind a closed door and opening my door the safest way I saw fit, I have to ask this: If your child is running around knocking on strangers doors at 11pm, does that make you guilty of criminal neglect?

September 8, 2010, 02:28 PM	#50
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Rob, I've got a question for you - why did you open the door at 11:00 pm? Don't get me wrong, I don't think you did anything wrong by having a gun in your hand by your side - I would have done the same.....if I decided to open the door. I just don't understand why you would open the door. It's way too easy for 2-3 thugs to overpower you, even if you have a gun, once you open that door. For me, I'd have to use my right (strong) hand to open the door which means it ain't on the gun - or even if I used my left hand, my gun hand would not be in a position where I could defend myself. Even if i had a left-opening door, I'd feel like I'm at a disadvantage if I thought there was a real possiblity of an attack. I'd really rather stand back and wait for the perp to jimmy/break-down the door, as their hands will be pre-occupied and mine will be doing nothing but operating my gun.