Historical question about the .50-70 Gov.

Kappe · December 18, 2013, 01:31 PM

Ok, most folks reading this probably know the .44 Russian was the first internally-lubricated cartridge design, and the story behind it too.

Out of boredom, I opened up a notepad document and started jotting down all the rimfire and centerfire cartridges I could think of that came along before the .44 Russian in ~1870.
.22 Rimfire, .32 Rimfire, .44 Henry, .56-56 Spencer, .50-70 Gov, .46 Rimfire, .44 American, etc...

Wait, .50-70 Government. Designed in 1866. Wasn't that internally-lubricated too?

Looking at pictures of original .50-70 rounds, none of them seem to have heeled bullets. Am I missing something here, or was the .50-70, in all its stop-gappy glory, really the first modern, internally-lubricated cartridge, NOT the .44 Russian?

maillemaker · December 18, 2013, 02:15 PM

I did not know anything about the .44 Russian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Russian

Here is the wikipedia entry on the .50-70 Government. There is no mention of lubrication in the article. I couldn't find any pictures of original .50-70 bullets with a cursory google search.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-70_Government

Steve

Kappe · December 18, 2013, 02:34 PM

Here's one of the pictures I was looking at earlier of several .50-70 rounds. They look like they're rimfire, but they're actually centerfire Martin bar and Benet-primed.

The source (http://www.oldammo.com/november06.htm) claims the first two are from 1867-1868, which predates the .44 Russian. None of them have exposed lube grooves.

Hawg · December 18, 2013, 08:02 PM

I believe they were outside lubed.

**Mike Irwin** · December 19, 2013, 10:46 AM

A number of internally lubricated cartridges preceded the .44 S&W Russian, including the .58 Miller and the .58 Allin, and possibly the .58 Josslyn Carbine (but I'm not sure about that one).

But they were all military developments

The .44 Russian was the first COMMERCIALLY available internally lubricated cartridge.

They certainly were NOT externally lubricated, the primary reason being that anyone who shoots blackpowder rifle knows that to keep the black powder fouling soft you need a LOT of soft lubricant. Where would that be on those nice, smooth .50-70 bullets?

You pull one of those early cartridges apart, and you're going to find a bullet with 3 nice, wide, deep grease grooves.

**Mike Irwin** · December 19, 2013, 10:55 AM

Right here I just found a sectioned .50-70 case with a Benet primer...

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...ed-case-bullet

It's a graphic from an ebay auction, so it's not great, but you can see the 3 grease grooves.

maillemaker · December 19, 2013, 02:06 PM

Great investigative work, Mike!

Steve

**Mike Irwin** · December 19, 2013, 04:40 PM

What a lot of people also don't know is that some of the early internally lubricated bullets...

were externally lubricated because, while they had non-heeled bullet, they had grease grooves ABOVE the case mouth.

Two examples are shown in this picture (the two on the left):

https://www.google.com/search?q=exte...4%3B1064%3B645

These are all .44 Russian cartridges, but the two on the left have external grease grooves in the non-heeled bullet. Interestingly, those two are apparently Russian made, but there were also American-made cartridges of the same type.

As a side note, the third bullet from the right is a very interest one... It's a late 1800s "pump lubricated" bullet.

The lube was in a hollow in the base of the bullet, with a plug covering it. On firing, the plug pushed the lube out through several small holes, one of which you can see in the side of the bullet.

Not very successful, difficult to manufacture, and didn't last very long.

Hawg · December 19, 2013, 07:23 PM

Cool Beans, thanks Mike.

Kappe · December 19, 2013, 08:58 PM

Thank you, Mike Irwin. You're a wealth of information.

radom · December 20, 2013, 05:10 AM

I did not say this but out of the US they used paper patch vs grease groves.

**Mike Irwin** · December 21, 2013, 08:35 AM

Paper patching of lead bullets was certainly used in the united states, but primarily commercially. And, frequently, the bullets had to be dip lubed to deal with the powder fouling, which is my guess as to why the paper patch never caught on with the military.

December 18, 2013, 01:31 PM	#1
Kappe Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2013 Location: New Jersey Posts: 149	Historical question about the .50-70 Gov. Ok, most folks reading this probably know the .44 Russian was the first internally-lubricated cartridge design, and the story behind it too. Out of boredom, I opened up a notepad document and started jotting down all the rimfire and centerfire cartridges I could think of that came along before the .44 Russian in ~1870. .22 Rimfire, .32 Rimfire, .44 Henry, .56-56 Spencer, .50-70 Gov, .46 Rimfire, .44 American, etc... Wait, .50-70 Government. Designed in 1866. Wasn't that internally-lubricated too? Looking at pictures of original .50-70 rounds, none of them seem to have heeled bullets. Am I missing something here, or was the .50-70, in all its stop-gappy glory, really the first modern, internally-lubricated cartridge, NOT the .44 Russian?

December 18, 2013, 02:34 PM	#3
Kappe Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2013 Location: New Jersey Posts: 149	Here's one of the pictures I was looking at earlier of several .50-70 rounds. They look like they're rimfire, but they're actually centerfire Martin bar and Benet-primed. The source (http://www.oldammo.com/november06.htm) claims the first two are from 1867-1868, which predates the .44 Russian. None of them have exposed lube grooves. Last edited by Kappe; December 18, 2013 at 02:40 PM.

December 19, 2013, 10:46 AM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	A number of internally lubricated cartridges preceded the .44 S&W Russian, including the .58 Miller and the .58 Allin, and possibly the .58 Josslyn Carbine (but I'm not sure about that one). But they were all military developments The .44 Russian was the first COMMERCIALLY available internally lubricated cartridge. They certainly were NOT externally lubricated, the primary reason being that anyone who shoots blackpowder rifle knows that to keep the black powder fouling soft you need a LOT of soft lubricant. Where would that be on those nice, smooth .50-70 bullets? You pull one of those early cartridges apart, and you're going to find a bullet with 3 nice, wide, deep grease grooves. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 19, 2013, 10:55 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Right here I just found a sectioned .50-70 case with a Benet primer... http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...ed-case-bullet It's a graphic from an ebay auction, so it's not great, but you can see the 3 grease grooves. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 19, 2013, 04:40 PM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	What a lot of people also don't know is that some of the early internally lubricated bullets... were externally lubricated because, while they had non-heeled bullet, they had grease grooves ABOVE the case mouth. Two examples are shown in this picture (the two on the left): https://www.google.com/search?q=exte...4%3B1064%3B645 These are all .44 Russian cartridges, but the two on the left have external grease grooves in the non-heeled bullet. Interestingly, those two are apparently Russian made, but there were also American-made cartridges of the same type. As a side note, the third bullet from the right is a very interest one... It's a late 1800s "pump lubricated" bullet. The lube was in a hollow in the base of the bullet, with a plug covering it. On firing, the plug pushed the lube out through several small holes, one of which you can see in the side of the bullet. Not very successful, difficult to manufacture, and didn't last very long. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. Last edited by Mike Irwin; December 19, 2013 at 04:45 PM.

December 18, 2013, 02:15 PM	#2
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I did not know anything about the .44 Russian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Russian Here is the wikipedia entry on the .50-70 Government. There is no mention of lubrication in the article. I couldn't find any pictures of original .50-70 bullets with a cursory google search. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-70_Government Steve

December 18, 2013, 08:02 PM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I believe they were outside lubed.

December 19, 2013, 02:06 PM	#7
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Great investigative work, Mike! Steve

December 19, 2013, 07:23 PM	#9
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Cool Beans, thanks Mike.

December 19, 2013, 08:58 PM	#10
Kappe Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2013 Location: New Jersey Posts: 149	Thank you, Mike Irwin. You're a wealth of information.

December 20, 2013, 05:10 AM	#11
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,357	I did not say this but out of the US they used paper patch vs grease groves.

December 21, 2013, 08:35 AM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Paper patching of lead bullets was certainly used in the united states, but primarily commercially. And, frequently, the bullets had to be dip lubed to deal with the powder fouling, which is my guess as to why the paper patch never caught on with the military. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.