PA CCW and the Law - Florida permit risk?

Glenn E. Meyer · November 4, 2010, 10:57 AM

http://www.policeone.com/news/286445...ealed-carrier/

Interesting article and comments.

Seems this guy is loitering under suspicious circumstances with a security guard permit that doesn't give you general carry rights and a FL permit - to avoid getting a PA permit.

The law takes offense in some interaction. The fellow repeats that action maybe on the advice of counsel - which seems strange - with another bad interaction with the law.

My question - is we see folks getting out of state permits for reciprocity when they travel. Seems legit - but how about to avoid getting your state permit? That happens in TX and seems to offend. It is also a red flag to an officer as to why you avoid your state checks?

My opinion is to get your state permit as it supports the system and avoids the risk of seeming to be trying to pull something over.

Thoughts? Please avoid police bashing, etc. We don't have the full story, yet. I'm interested in the out of state vs. in your state viewpoint for permits.

jg0001 · November 4, 2010, 11:29 AM

The police themselves didn't lean on the out-of-state versus in-state license as the reason they arrested him, so I don't see how that matters -- in this case. I got the sense that even if he had a full-up concealed carry license issued by Pennsylvania, they (the police) would have arrested him twice anyway. In each case, they applied whatever nonsense they could to temporarily detain him and take away his weapons, in this case, loitering at a bus stop. I'm sure if they HAD something to go on with relation to the weapons, they would have used that. [What I didn't like was their calling the FL license "controversial", but again, they didn't seem to lean on that as the justification for the arrest.]

One key fact that wasn't clear --- if he WAS a security guard, was he perhaps OPEN carrying?

Now, as many posters on the site of the story suggest, acting stupid and standing in one place may be foolish, especially if police tell you to move, but they haven't provided any reason good enough to KEEP him in jail. I'm sure MANY criminals, pre-crime, could be singled out by police if they were 'watched' long enough, but that still doesn't change the fact that we have laws that must be broken before the 'crime' can be said to be committed. This guy MAY look crazy, may be toting a gun, and may be suspicious, but that's where the police work BEGINS, not where the arrest is made. Otherwise, anyone could be arrested and detained based on an officer's gut feel.

With regards to the licensing, if he passes the tests to get a FL license, I don't see the issue. In this PARTICULAR case, my understanding is that a PA license is FAR EASIER to get than a FL non-resident anyway. No licensing test is going to weed out all of the nutjobs, and if the only alternative is to have someone (i.e. the police or a judge) make a decision on people one at a time, SUBJECTIVELY, to try and rule out the oddballs, well, I'd rather not give them (the state) that power. In every case where that method is used (i.e. NYC), only the select few elite get permits and everyone else gets laughed at for asking.

What he was trying to do on his 2nd visit was to prove that if you take away the GUN from the equation, the police would let you loiter all day long at the bus stop (that's what he was taking photos of, other people hanging around the bus stop). Since he was never charged with any weapons violations, the arrest itself is in question.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 4, 2010, 11:20 PM

Glenn, he's in Philadelphia. If you missed the history, Philadelphia has either declined to issue permits to, or revoked the permits of, a number of people who work as armed security guards. And the city's grounds are, at best, specious. It happens that Pennsylvania's law recognizes Florida licenses and does not stipulate that the holder must be a Florida native, or cannot be a Pennsylvania resident.

Therefore, what this man -- and the others -- is doing IS 100 percent legal. The cops in Philadelphia don't like it because their Aw-THOR-i-tay is being challenged. They don't have a legal leg to stand on, so they are shopping for excuses to harass these guys.

blume357 · November 5, 2010, 06:51 AM

too many variables and it's all from news reports which are inherently flawed....

Whole deal may have been planned to call the legal question....

I was amazed and should not have been to find out just a few years ago the whole Rosa Parks and the Bus thing was pre-planned. Not putting her down or any part of the civil rights movement... this is actually often how unjust laws are changed.... not on a whim or by an accident but by group planning.

rwilson452 · November 5, 2010, 07:05 AM

Philadelphia has been at odds with the rest of the state for some time over their methods of issuing a License to carry. PA has preemption and Mayor Nutter and crew don't like it. PPD has a habit of taking Licenses they have no authority to take and keeping firearms they have no authority to seize. It's starting to come to a head.

Al Norris · November 5, 2010, 09:02 AM

First reported by the Phillidelphia Enquirer, here (same story).

There's a backstory to this, mentioned only briefly in the article:

Quote:

Solomon was one of nine men in an August Daily News story whose legally owned guns were taken by police while they carried a Florida permit or an Act 235.

These guys (5 of them, IIRC) are currently suing the City for rights violations.

Adds another angle to the whole story, yes?

Don P · November 5, 2010, 09:53 AM

I have a friend who has a PA CCW being a resident of PA and he also obtained a FLA ( out of state ) CCW being that the FLA permit allows him to CCW in more states than the PA permit. I know this is off the OP. Just thought I would share the info and spread my 2 shillings around.

Gary Slider · November 5, 2010, 12:25 PM

Philly has already paid some of these people off to drop their case. Philly was in the wrong. The PA AG told them that a PA resident with a FL Permit/License can legally carry in PA with it. About a year ago the PA State Police stated they would arrest anyone who was carrying on a FL Non Resident Permit/License. They were mainly after PA Residents carrying on a FL Permit/License. The AG had to straighten them out also.

Now there could be more to some of these stories that we are not hearing. But with Philly paying some of these gentlemen big bucks to drop their case it is not hard to see who is in the wrong. I just wonder how many lost their gun and never said anything about it and just went on their way. I believe that happens more than we realize.

9mmHP · November 24, 2010, 05:41 AM

He had a PA Act 235 license, which is actually harder to get than a general self-defense license requiring a psych exam, a physical, a training course, and a written exam. I don't see how this had anything to do with him not wanting to get a PA license. He was waiting for a bus at Broad and Olney for crying out loud. Lots of people loiter there actually waiting for buses after coming off the subway. It's a busy major intersection.

Conn. Trooper · November 25, 2010, 09:13 AM

Seems strange that if he was licensed as a security guard and lives in PA, why doesn't he get a PA permit? Are they harder to get than Florida? I just don't see why he would get Florida and not PA. Maybe I am missing something here.

I know a lot of people seem to get Utah for the reciprocity with other states, but that always seems to be in addition to their home state. Maybe I am naive about why someone would get Florida and not their home state.

MLeake · November 25, 2010, 09:29 AM

... from reading the articles linked earlier in the thread, plus from doing some Google searches, it seems that while Pennsylvania is a "shall-issue" state, the city of Philadelphia has somehow won itself an exemption with regard to issue of permits. Philly is apparently very unfriendly about issuing permits (and apparently city residents MUST get their permits from the city, not the State).

However, Philly residents can get a Florida permit, which the state of Pennsylvania will recognize. Philly, in turn, must recognize permits which Pennsylvania recognizes. Philly does not like this...

Which is just too darned bad, and I hope the nine men involved in the suit rake Philly over the financial coals.

rwilson452 · November 25, 2010, 10:05 AM

Philadelphia is the only city in pa that issues by the police. They are suppose to issue IAW the same standards as the rest of the state. the law provides for a character standard that Philadelphia uses to the extreme in many ways not intended. Thus a lot of people just pay more and get a FL or UT permit. Philadelphia is now considering a law to no recognize out of state permits for residents. such a law is clearly against state preemption law. They will do it and then get sued again and I hope it cost them a bundle. sooner or later the taxpayers will grow weary of this I hope.

Quote:

... from reading the articles linked earlier in the thread, plus from doing some Google searches, it seems that while Pennsylvania is a "shall-issue" state, the city of Philadelphia has somehow won itself an exemption with regard to issue of permits. Philly is apparently very unfriendly about issuing permits (and apparently city residents MUST get their permits from the city, not the State).

However, Philly residents can get a Florida permit, which the state of Pennsylvania will recognize. Philly, in turn, must recognize permits which Pennsylvania recognizes. Philly does not like this...

Which is just too darned bad, and I hope the nine men involved in the suit rake Philly over the financial coals.

9mmHP · December 8, 2010, 01:48 AM

He has a 235 card which allows carry going to or from work.

Philadelphia is "shall issue" on PA LTCF, they used to be exempted, but the legislature took that away years ago.

**Aguila Blanca** · December 8, 2010, 09:56 AM

9mmHP --

Perhaps Philadelphia is supposed to be shall issue, but in fact they are "may issue" bordering closely on "ain't no way we're gonna issue." Philadelphia does not think state law applies to them.

November 4, 2010, 10:57 AM	#1
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	PA CCW and the Law - Florida permit risk? http://www.policeone.com/news/286445...ealed-carrier/ Interesting article and comments. Seems this guy is loitering under suspicious circumstances with a security guard permit that doesn't give you general carry rights and a FL permit - to avoid getting a PA permit. The law takes offense in some interaction. The fellow repeats that action maybe on the advice of counsel - which seems strange - with another bad interaction with the law. My question - is we see folks getting out of state permits for reciprocity when they travel. Seems legit - but how about to avoid getting your state permit? That happens in TX and seems to offend. It is also a red flag to an officer as to why you avoid your state checks? My opinion is to get your state permit as it supports the system and avoids the risk of seeming to be trying to pull something over. Thoughts? Please avoid police bashing, etc. We don't have the full story, yet. I'm interested in the out of state vs. in your state viewpoint for permits. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 4, 2010, 11:29 AM	#2
jg0001 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2007 Posts: 551	The police themselves didn't lean on the out-of-state versus in-state license as the reason they arrested him, so I don't see how that matters -- in this case. I got the sense that even if he had a full-up concealed carry license issued by Pennsylvania, they (the police) would have arrested him twice anyway. In each case, they applied whatever nonsense they could to temporarily detain him and take away his weapons, in this case, loitering at a bus stop. I'm sure if they HAD something to go on with relation to the weapons, they would have used that. [What I didn't like was their calling the FL license "controversial", but again, they didn't seem to lean on that as the justification for the arrest.] One key fact that wasn't clear --- if he WAS a security guard, was he perhaps OPEN carrying? Now, as many posters on the site of the story suggest, acting stupid and standing in one place may be foolish, especially if police tell you to move, but they haven't provided any reason good enough to KEEP him in jail. I'm sure MANY criminals, pre-crime, could be singled out by police if they were 'watched' long enough, but that still doesn't change the fact that we have laws that must be broken before the 'crime' can be said to be committed. This guy MAY look crazy, may be toting a gun, and may be suspicious, but that's where the police work BEGINS, not where the arrest is made. Otherwise, anyone could be arrested and detained based on an officer's gut feel. With regards to the licensing, if he passes the tests to get a FL license, I don't see the issue. In this PARTICULAR case, my understanding is that a PA license is FAR EASIER to get than a FL non-resident anyway. No licensing test is going to weed out all of the nutjobs, and if the only alternative is to have someone (i.e. the police or a judge) make a decision on people one at a time, SUBJECTIVELY, to try and rule out the oddballs, well, I'd rather not give them (the state) that power. In every case where that method is used (i.e. NYC), only the select few elite get permits and everyone else gets laughed at for asking. What he was trying to do on his 2nd visit was to prove that if you take away the GUN from the equation, the police would let you loiter all day long at the bus stop (that's what he was taking photos of, other people hanging around the bus stop). Since he was never charged with any weapons violations, the arrest itself is in question. Last edited by jg0001; November 4, 2010 at 11:34 AM.

November 5, 2010, 06:51 AM	#4
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	Some how is smells of set up from one side or the other... too many variables and it's all from news reports which are inherently flawed.... Whole deal may have been planned to call the legal question.... I was amazed and should not have been to find out just a few years ago the whole Rosa Parks and the Bus thing was pre-planned. Not putting her down or any part of the civil rights movement... this is actually often how unjust laws are changed.... not on a whim or by an accident but by group planning.

November 5, 2010, 07:05 AM	#5
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	Philadelphia has been at odds with the rest of the state for some time over their methods of issuing a License to carry. PA has preemption and Mayor Nutter and crew don't like it. PPD has a habit of taking Licenses they have no authority to take and keeping firearms they have no authority to seize. It's starting to come to a head. __________________ USNRET '61-'81

November 5, 2010, 09:53 AM	#7
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	I have a friend who has a PA CCW being a resident of PA and he also obtained a FLA ( out of state ) CCW being that the FLA permit allows him to CCW in more states than the PA permit. I know this is off the OP. Just thought I would share the info and spread my 2 shillings around. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

November 4, 2010, 11:20 PM	#3
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	Glenn, he's in Philadelphia. If you missed the history, Philadelphia has either declined to issue permits to, or revoked the permits of, a number of people who work as armed security guards. And the city's grounds are, at best, specious. It happens that Pennsylvania's law recognizes Florida licenses and does not stipulate that the holder must be a Florida native, or cannot be a Pennsylvania resident. Therefore, what this man -- and the others -- is doing IS 100 percent legal. The cops in Philadelphia don't like it because their Aw-THOR-i-tay is being challenged. They don't have a legal leg to stand on, so they are shopping for excuses to harass these guys.

November 5, 2010, 12:25 PM	#8
Gary Slider Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2006 Location: New Martinsville, WV Posts: 432	Philly has already paid some of these people off to drop their case. Philly was in the wrong. The PA AG told them that a PA resident with a FL Permit/License can legally carry in PA with it. About a year ago the PA State Police stated they would arrest anyone who was carrying on a FL Non Resident Permit/License. They were mainly after PA Residents carrying on a FL Permit/License. The AG had to straighten them out also. Now there could be more to some of these stories that we are not hearing. But with Philly paying some of these gentlemen big bucks to drop their case it is not hard to see who is in the wrong. I just wonder how many lost their gun and never said anything about it and just went on their way. I believe that happens more than we realize. __________________ ___________ Gary Slider Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network.

November 24, 2010, 05:41 AM	#9
9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Indiana/Indpls Metro Area Posts: 318	He had a PA Act 235 license, which is actually harder to get than a general self-defense license requiring a psych exam, a physical, a training course, and a written exam. I don't see how this had anything to do with him not wanting to get a PA license. He was waiting for a bus at Broad and Olney for crying out loud. Lots of people loiter there actually waiting for buses after coming off the subway. It's a busy major intersection.

November 25, 2010, 09:13 AM	#10
Conn. Trooper Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 530	Seems strange that if he was licensed as a security guard and lives in PA, why doesn't he get a PA permit? Are they harder to get than Florida? I just don't see why he would get Florida and not PA. Maybe I am missing something here. I know a lot of people seem to get Utah for the reciprocity with other states, but that always seems to be in addition to their home state. Maybe I am naive about why someone would get Florida and not their home state.

November 25, 2010, 09:29 AM	#11
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Conn Trooper... ... from reading the articles linked earlier in the thread, plus from doing some Google searches, it seems that while Pennsylvania is a "shall-issue" state, the city of Philadelphia has somehow won itself an exemption with regard to issue of permits. Philly is apparently very unfriendly about issuing permits (and apparently city residents MUST get their permits from the city, not the State). However, Philly residents can get a Florida permit, which the state of Pennsylvania will recognize. Philly, in turn, must recognize permits which Pennsylvania recognizes. Philly does not like this... Which is just too darned bad, and I hope the nine men involved in the suit rake Philly over the financial coals.

December 8, 2010, 01:48 AM	#13
9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Indiana/Indpls Metro Area Posts: 318	He has a 235 card which allows carry going to or from work. Philadelphia is "shall issue" on PA LTCF, they used to be exempted, but the legislature took that away years ago.

December 8, 2010, 09:56 AM	#14
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	9mmHP -- Perhaps Philadelphia is supposed to be shall issue, but in fact they are "may issue" bordering closely on "ain't no way we're gonna issue." Philadelphia does not think state law applies to them.