newbie question

marlin93 · April 16, 2010, 02:02 PM

i would like to know if anyone has installed a new replica cylinder in a original 1858 remmington new army revolver. does it fit, time, and shoot flawlessly? what make cylinder (uberti. pietta etc) is the best fit. thanks for any advise. bill

Doc Hoy · April 16, 2010, 02:30 PM

Haven't done it but welcome to the forum.

Some one here probably has that experience.

Tnx,

Delmar · April 16, 2010, 06:12 PM

I wonder if VTI Gun Parts could answer that question?

T. O'Heir · April 18, 2010, 02:32 AM

Hi. Those parts, on any revolver, require fitting by a smithy. Don't even think about it on a real 1858 original though. Far too valuable. Buy a replica.

Swede68 · April 18, 2010, 05:11 AM

A replica cylinder does not neccessarily need any fitting. As for antique value, if Marlin93 wants to fit a replica cylinder then something is probably wrong with the original one, or it´s missing. If something is wrong with it then just keep it for show and get a new cylinder and you wouldn´t have hurt value a bit, if it´s missing then making the gun complete with a new cylinder does NOT hurt value. If he just wants a spare cylinder for shooting, then there´s no harm in that either (if the rest of the gun is in sound shooting condition). I don understand where this idea comes from?

However, not all replica cylinders fit an original revolver. The dimensions often differ, the diameter of the cylinder is often different and thus the chambers don´t line up with the bore. I do not know which replica cylinders fit and which don´t, but an educated guess would be that Uberti makes a better fitting cylinder since they are generally a lot more true to original design and dimensions then for instance Pietta.
Add to that the fact that the originial guns working parts may be worn, and the mechanism timed accordingly to that wear to function properly, then yes, even an original cylinder from another original gun may need fitting. It is usually not a huge problem, and more often than not, it´s no problem at all.
There are new cylinders sold specifically for original C&B revolvers. Check out Dixie Gunworks catalog, look under "general merchandise"-"parts"-"original handguns"-"Remington".

I´ve had several original Remington and Colt revolvers with new cylinders (cheap beater/shooter condition) and some have been perfectly matched to the gun, a few have had problems with the chamber/barrel lineup.

What you definitely SHOULD do before you shoot your original handgun is to have a gunsmith or an experienced blackpowder shooter check it over first. I don´t know what your experience is with blackpowder shooting in general or shooting antique guns in particular, I don´t even know if shooting actually is on your agenda or if you just want to make your gun complete, but if you´re not expericenced then get help.

Anders Olsson

Hawg · April 18, 2010, 05:16 AM

I know Pietta cylinders wont fit an original, doubt if anybody else's will either.

T. O'Heir, They don't need fitting as long as you stay within the brand. I've used Pietta cylinders in three revolvers and they fit and function perfectly. Some of the aftermarket cylinders need fitting.

wogpotter · April 18, 2010, 10:19 AM

I found this on the Cimarron website:

"The Remington model 1858 Army was one of the favorite side arms of the boys in blue during America's period of social unrest that some refer to as the Civil War. Known for its superior strength and accuracy due to the top strap style frame. This high quality Cimarron model 1858 Army reproduction features parts interchangeable with the original." my italics on the text. As we seem to know that Pietta & Uberti parts don't interchange, maybe the Uberti (Cimarron) parts are the answer all else being equal.

Doc Hoy · April 18, 2010, 03:55 PM

I went to the gun show coupla weeks ago and there, in all his glory, was a young fellow sanding away on an original 1858 Remington with eighty grit wet dry paper. He told me he had bought it at an auction for $350.00. The cylinder was laying on the table and the grips were off of the pistol as well. He showed me the grips and in my opinion (although I am no expert...) this was an original revolver.

He told me he was going to "make a shooter" out of it. I wiped away the tears and wished him the best in his project.

Hawg · April 18, 2010, 05:42 PM

An original for 350.00? He prolly didnt hurt it much. I sold one several years ago that had pits so deep in the barrel you could almost see the rifling from the outside for 500.00

Swede68 · April 19, 2010, 01:19 AM

I take it then Doc that if you found an original 1935 Auburn Boattail Speedster rusting and rotting away in a barn, you´d let it stay in that sorry state for historical reasons rather than restore it? You know there´s a difference between "worn" and "broken"?!

If an antique gun is in decent condition then I wouldn´t do anything to it other than preserve it, but there are a lot of "fixer-uppers" out there that cry for help.

As Hawg allready pointed out, if he bought it for 350 then it probably needed the work. Whether he knew how to do it properly is another matter!

Anders Olsson

Doc Hoy · April 19, 2010, 04:40 AM

.....I am not well informed on restoration of original revolvers. I am applying the rule of thumb that new parts or a new finish on an original pistol will reduce its value with the full knowledge that rules of thumb can not be universally applied. My comments about this particular pistol addressed the issue that it appeared that the gentleman wanted to change the appearance of the pistol from original to new as he was changing its operation from unshootable to shootable. I acknowledge that is two different things and I did not mention that in the response.

I would say that an Auburn Speeder restored by someone who does not know what he is doing would be worth less after he is finished as long as we assume that it will deteriorate no further if left alone. That is probably true of the pistol in someone's house but not of the Speeder in a barn. So...No I would salvage and restore the speeder so as to prevent its inevitable loss but that pistol had already been salvaged and I think could not be restore and hence should be left alone.

When I handled the pistol the loading lever operated properly but loosely. The cylinder pin moved easily but loosely. I did not try the action. The pistol appeared complete and the grips were not broken. The rifling was visible but not very. My reaction at the time was that the pistol was too far gone but I could be wrong. I doubted it would be accurate or reliable and I thought perhaps it might be dangerous although these are opinions of one who has already admitted he is under-informed on original pistol restoration.

I know nothing about the fellow accept that he did not seem to know much about black powder revolvers...source of replacement parts....European proof marks....and such. It is entirely possible that the restoration actually began before he bought it and that he was just making the best of it.

But it appeared to me that he took an item that had only historical value and destroyed that value with no hope of increasing its value in any other way. Obviously I did not tell him of my feelings because it is his 350.00, his time and his sandpaper. He looked very happy about the whole situation.

April 16, 2010, 02:02 PM	#1
marlin93 Junior Member Join Date: April 16, 2010 Posts: 1	newbie question i would like to know if anyone has installed a new replica cylinder in a original 1858 remmington new army revolver. does it fit, time, and shoot flawlessly? what make cylinder (uberti. pietta etc) is the best fit. thanks for any advise. bill

April 16, 2010, 02:30 PM	#2
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Marlin, Haven't done it but welcome to the forum. Some one here probably has that experience. Tnx, __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

April 18, 2010, 02:32 AM	#4
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Hi. Those parts, on any revolver, require fitting by a smithy. Don't even think about it on a real 1858 original though. Far too valuable. Buy a replica. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

April 18, 2010, 05:11 AM	#5
Swede68 Member Join Date: August 7, 2009 Posts: 84	A replica cylinder does not neccessarily need any fitting. As for antique value, if Marlin93 wants to fit a replica cylinder then something is probably wrong with the original one, or it´s missing. If something is wrong with it then just keep it for show and get a new cylinder and you wouldn´t have hurt value a bit, if it´s missing then making the gun complete with a new cylinder does NOT hurt value. If he just wants a spare cylinder for shooting, then there´s no harm in that either (if the rest of the gun is in sound shooting condition). I don understand where this idea comes from? However, not all replica cylinders fit an original revolver. The dimensions often differ, the diameter of the cylinder is often different and thus the chambers don´t line up with the bore. I do not know which replica cylinders fit and which don´t, but an educated guess would be that Uberti makes a better fitting cylinder since they are generally a lot more true to original design and dimensions then for instance Pietta. Add to that the fact that the originial guns working parts may be worn, and the mechanism timed accordingly to that wear to function properly, then yes, even an original cylinder from another original gun may need fitting. It is usually not a huge problem, and more often than not, it´s no problem at all. There are new cylinders sold specifically for original C&B revolvers. Check out Dixie Gunworks catalog, look under "general merchandise"-"parts"-"original handguns"-"Remington". I´ve had several original Remington and Colt revolvers with new cylinders (cheap beater/shooter condition) and some have been perfectly matched to the gun, a few have had problems with the chamber/barrel lineup. What you definitely SHOULD do before you shoot your original handgun is to have a gunsmith or an experienced blackpowder shooter check it over first. I don´t know what your experience is with blackpowder shooting in general or shooting antique guns in particular, I don´t even know if shooting actually is on your agenda or if you just want to make your gun complete, but if you´re not expericenced then get help. Anders Olsson Last edited by Swede68; April 18, 2010 at 05:17 AM.

April 18, 2010, 03:55 PM	#8
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	My two cents..which is over priced I went to the gun show coupla weeks ago and there, in all his glory, was a young fellow sanding away on an original 1858 Remington with eighty grit wet dry paper. He told me he had bought it at an auction for $350.00. The cylinder was laying on the table and the grips were off of the pistol as well. He showed me the grips and in my opinion (although I am no expert...) this was an original revolver. He told me he was going to "make a shooter" out of it. I wiped away the tears and wished him the best in his project. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

April 16, 2010, 06:12 PM	#3
Delmar Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2009 Location: Norhthern Indiana Posts: 307	I wonder if VTI Gun Parts could answer that question?

April 18, 2010, 05:16 AM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I know Pietta cylinders wont fit an original, doubt if anybody else's will either. T. O'Heir, They don't need fitting as long as you stay within the brand. I've used Pietta cylinders in three revolvers and they fit and function perfectly. Some of the aftermarket cylinders need fitting.

April 18, 2010, 10:19 AM	#7
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	I found this on the Cimarron website: "The Remington model 1858 Army was one of the favorite side arms of the boys in blue during America's period of social unrest that some refer to as the Civil War. Known for its superior strength and accuracy due to the top strap style frame. This high quality Cimarron model 1858 Army reproduction features parts interchangeable with the original." my italics on the text. As we seem to know that Pietta & Uberti parts don't interchange, maybe the Uberti (Cimarron) parts are the answer all else being equal.

April 18, 2010, 05:42 PM	#9
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	An original for 350.00? He prolly didnt hurt it much. I sold one several years ago that had pits so deep in the barrel you could almost see the rifling from the outside for 500.00

April 19, 2010, 01:19 AM	#10
Swede68 Member Join Date: August 7, 2009 Posts: 84	I take it then Doc that if you found an original 1935 Auburn Boattail Speedster rusting and rotting away in a barn, you´d let it stay in that sorry state for historical reasons rather than restore it? You know there´s a difference between "worn" and "broken"?! If an antique gun is in decent condition then I wouldn´t do anything to it other than preserve it, but there are a lot of "fixer-uppers" out there that cry for help. As Hawg allready pointed out, if he bought it for 350 then it probably needed the work. Whether he knew how to do it properly is another matter! Anders Olsson Last edited by Swede68; April 19, 2010 at 03:56 AM.

April 19, 2010, 04:40 AM	#11
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	As I said earlier.... .....I am not well informed on restoration of original revolvers. I am applying the rule of thumb that new parts or a new finish on an original pistol will reduce its value with the full knowledge that rules of thumb can not be universally applied. My comments about this particular pistol addressed the issue that it appeared that the gentleman wanted to change the appearance of the pistol from original to new as he was changing its operation from unshootable to shootable. I acknowledge that is two different things and I did not mention that in the response. I would say that an Auburn Speeder restored by someone who does not know what he is doing would be worth less after he is finished as long as we assume that it will deteriorate no further if left alone. That is probably true of the pistol in someone's house but not of the Speeder in a barn. So...No I would salvage and restore the speeder so as to prevent its inevitable loss but that pistol had already been salvaged and I think could not be restore and hence should be left alone. When I handled the pistol the loading lever operated properly but loosely. The cylinder pin moved easily but loosely. I did not try the action. The pistol appeared complete and the grips were not broken. The rifling was visible but not very. My reaction at the time was that the pistol was too far gone but I could be wrong. I doubted it would be accurate or reliable and I thought perhaps it might be dangerous although these are opinions of one who has already admitted he is under-informed on original pistol restoration. I know nothing about the fellow accept that he did not seem to know much about black powder revolvers...source of replacement parts....European proof marks....and such. It is entirely possible that the restoration actually began before he bought it and that he was just making the best of it. But it appeared to me that he took an item that had only historical value and destroyed that value with no hope of increasing its value in any other way. Obviously I did not tell him of my feelings because it is his 350.00, his time and his sandpaper. He looked very happy about the whole situation. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.