Questions for the C&R holders

[Outlaw75]

A couple of questions for the C&R holders that I can't seem to find answers to. (I'm thinking about getting a license.)

1. Do I have to log any C&R eligible firearms I own in the bound book if I purchased them prior to getting my C&R?

2. If I sell to a non C&R holder does the transfer have to go through an FFL?

Thanks in advance!

[kilimanjaro]

Short answers :

1.) Pre-license C&R items do not need to be logged in. However, should you sell one, it needs logged in as a disposal from your collection.

2.) Private sales may need an FFL in your state, but generally not. State requirements are the key. Here in Washington, when I594 passes, there will be a direct conflict with the C&R permit.

[jonnyc]

Kilimanjaro is pretty-much correct. Here are just some little clarifications:

1. When you sell/dispose of a previously bought C&R firearm, you simply log it into your book as "Pre-C&R Purchase", and then log it out as for any other C&R gun.

2. In-state sales do depend on your state's laws, but any out-of-state transfer must go to an 01 or 03 (C&R) FFL.

[tobnpr]

Please refer me to the regulation that requires C&R eligible firearms acquired before licensing to be logged in the "bound book" upon disposition.

I've not seen any requirement that they be treated any differently than any other firearm obtained before licensing.

In my state, any firearm can be sold FTF with no records required (although, like most responsible firearms owners, I keep a bill of sale with new owner info).

[kilimanjaro]

During the term of your license, you are required to log all dispositions of C&R items.

[madmo44mag]

Please refer me to the regulation that requires C&R eligible firearms acquired before licensing to be logged in the "bound book" upon disposition.

The license makes you an FFL and even though your state allows FTF transactions you are bound by the federal law because of the 03FFL

I once thought as you did and had local agents tell me it was OK for FTF without logging in my book. (TEXAS)
I was blasted on this or another forum so I called and got to a supervisor and was informed the local agents were wrong and he wanted their names.

Federal law trumps state law.

[jag2]

Two thoughts. Why not record it? I keep as much info as I can get on any purchase I make. I want to keep those records. Memories fade, ink not so much. Secondly, the odds of the ATF ever auditing your book are almost nil. I guess if you try to unload 40 or 50 Mausers at one time to some sort of undercover agent you might draw some attention but at that point your book isn't your biggest problem. If you are an 01 FFL then you better cross every t and dot every i. For a C&R just try to do a good job of record keeping and you will be fine.

[jonnyc]

tobnpr - Your misconception comes up every time this question gets discussed on any website. Your thoughts have been proven wrong in every single case. Do a little research and you will find the exact text that explains the process.

[tobnpr]

tobnpr - Your misconception comes up every time this question gets discussed on any website. Your thoughts have been proven wrong in every single case. Do a little research and you will find the exact text that explains the process.

Always so arrogant and all-knowing?

Put up or shutup...I have reviewed the ATF Firearms Regulation Guide, and I could not find a statute that addresses disposition of firearms obtained before licensure. However, a Google search, turned up a BATF response in a letter referencing the same question. So, unless someone has forged, or altered Mr. Bartlett's letter- you're w-r-o-n-g.

You need go no further than "A" in the letter below.

The BATF replied:
Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, DC 20226

Dear Mr. Rxxx,
This is in response to your letter dated October 18, 1996, requesting information concerning the acquisition and disposition of curio and relic firearms.
In response to your questions, we feel the following information will resolve your areas of concern and confusion:
(A) Current regulations do not require licensed collectors to record in their bound book firearms acquired prior to obtaining their license. Therefore, subsequent sales of the previously acquired firearms would require no entry in your bound book records.
(B) If, after obtaining a license, a firearm is acquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors' license to purchase the weapon. See 27CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.
(C) You may immediately dispose of a firearm to a lawful buyer. The length of time you retain it is immaterial. The determining factor is under what circumstances it was acquired. If the firearm was acquired to enhance your personal collection, and you decide you do not like or want it, the length of time and amount it is sold for do not matter. However, if you acquire guns for the purpose of resale, for profit, you would be engaged in a firearms dealing business and would need a dealers' license. As you are aware, the definition of a dealer is ''A person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.'' Therefore, the purpose of the transactions would be the determining factor in whether you were dealing in firearms or merely enhancing your personal collection. The mere fact that you make a profit on the sale of a firearm from your collection would not mean you were dealing in firearms. Repeated transactions which are motivated by the desire to generate profit or income rather than enhancing your collection would indicate you were dealing in furearms, not collecting. If a collector acquires curios or relics for the purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector should be a licensed dealer in firearms.The sole intent and purpose f the collectors' license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain a curio or relic from outside his State of residence.
(D) Disposing of personal firearms for the purpose of upgrading a collection is not engaging in a firearms business.

We trust this has been responsive to your request. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely yours,
Charles Bartlett
Acting Chief
Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch
--------------6F2B21496506940BFFB96015--

[SteveBonning]

Thanks for that clarification. Although I would rather have seen a link or copy of the actual letter ('Trust, but verify'...Ronald Reagan), it looks like you've debunked a long-held belief.

[jonnyc]

"Q: May a licensee who has firearms in his or her private collection sell any of these firearms without making firearms record entries?

A licensee may sell a firearm from his or her personal collection, subject only to the restrictions on firearm sales by unlicensed persons, provided the firearm was entered in the licensee’s bound book and then transferred to the licensee’s private collection at least 1 year prior to the sale. When the personal firearm is sold, the sale must be recorded in a “bound book” for dispositions of personal firearms, but no ATF Form 4473 is required.
[27 CFR 478.125a]"

This is direct from ATF regs, not some undated letter, from an unknown functionary, at an unknown local branch. Local ATF agents are infamous for issuing ignorant, misleading, and wrong statements. More research will provide more confirmation.
If anyone chooses to act differently......best of luck to you.

I'm not always so arrogant, just when I am 110% sure that someone is disseminating potentially dangerous information. I would say 'suck it', but my Mom brought me up better. And FWIW, I think you will find that the vast majority of C&R holders will follow this practice described above.

[Cheapshooter]

§ 478.125a Personal firearms collection.
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of § 478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a firearm maintained as part of the licensee's personal firearms collection: Provided, That
(1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm,
(2) The licensee recorded in the bound record prescribed by § 478.125(e) the receipt of the firearm into the business inventory or other acquisition,
(3) The licensee recorded the firearm as a disposition in the bound record prescribed by § 478.125(e) when the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal firearms collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm,

The words "licensed collector" seems to be missing in the section you quote! But "business", which is prohibited by a C&R licensee is mentioned several times.

[noelf2]

^^Yep. The text quoted by jonnyc does not pertain to licensed collectors. Every 03FFL, except for a very few, knows that bound book dispositions only apply only to bound book acquisitions. There is no way the ATF could or would come after an 03FFL for selling a qualified firearm that he obtained before he was licensed. This argument comes up every year or two, and usually the same parties are involved.

[jonnyc]

What's really funny, is that as often as this question comes up on many of the sites I frequent, this is the only place that has members argue for something that most C&R holders refute.
Carry on.......I'm done.......do what makes you happy.

[Cheapshooter]

I guess when rumor trumps citing an actual paragraph in the law it's time to quit. I did a lot of searching for actual wording from the BATF regulations and found nothing! Maybe it would be helpful to others if the actual section from the code that requires a C&R licensee to enter firearms from a personal collection into their bound book were quoted along with the section and paragraph number. Should not be that hard to find if so many believe it to be.

[Cheapshooter]

This may be where the confusion comes from:

27 CFR 478.125
g) Commercial records of firearms received. When a commercial record is held by a licensed dealer or licensed collector showing the acquisition of a firearm or firearm curio or relic, and such record contains all acquisition information required by the bound record prescribed by paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, the licensed dealer or licensed collector acquiring such firearm or curio or relic, may, for a period not exceeding 7 days following the date of such acquisition, delay making the required entry into such bound record: Provided, That the commercial record is, until such time as the required entry into the bound record is made, (1) maintained by the licensed dealer or licensed collector separate from other commercial documents maintained by such licensee, and (2) readily available for inspection on the licensed premises: Provided further, That when disposition is made of a firearm or firearm curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of this paragraph, the licensed dealer or licensed collector making such disposition shall enter all required acquisition information regarding the firearm or firearm curio or relic in the bound record at the time such transfer or disposition is made.

Meaning that an acquisition that is not entered into the bound book before it is disposed of (within 7 days as per this section) still has to be entered as an acquisition even if it is disposed of within the 7 days.

Still can't find anything about curio & relic firearms owned prior to the date a license was issued.

Here is a link to the pdf so you can search through it if you want to.
TITLE 27 CFR CHAPTER II PART 478—COMMERCE IN …
www.ccw-solutions.com/cs/adb/27cfr_part478.pdf

[noelf2]

Cheapshooter you can't find it because it doesn't exist. I think the consensus in many forums is that it sure doesn't hurt to enter a prior to license C&R gun at disposition in the bound book, but there's nothing making it a requirement. I have C&R qualified guns that were given to me by my father many many years ago. If I were to sell one, which I wouldn't, there's no reason to enter it in my bound book. I work fed gov policy for a living, and I can tell you that policy must be clear and concise, offering no logical room for doubt, if it is to be punitive in any way.

[emcon5]

emphasis added

478.125(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic.

[Cheapshooter]

Oops, double post.

[Cheapshooter]

If I already owned it, I didn't receive or acquire it!
(Where's the banging head duh smilie )

[emcon5]

Right. But if you sell one you are disposing (see above, disposition of firearms curios or relics) If you owned prior to being licensed doesn't matter, you need to log it when you sell it.

[noelf2]

That's your interpretation. Put them in your bound book if you want to. It can't hurt. ATF won't care one way or the other. BTW, your text in bold above could also be interpreted such that you need to enter receipt of all acquisitions received prior to licensure as well. It isn't clear that you dont need to enter receipts prior to licensure. And once licensed, you would be in violation of the requirement to enter into your bound book within one day of acquisition. One can read way too much into the requirement to the point of being illogical. That happens a lot with poorly written regulations. In order for your assumption to be correct, the text would have to say "receipt and/or disposition" instead of "receipt and disposition".

[emcon5]

The formatting of the quote is a little off. This is actually the heading of the section in the code, it is in Bold in the book. See page 67 of the ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Guide 2005 that was in that pile of stuff ATF sent you when you got your license.

Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors.

That means, buying and selling by licensed collectors. It means if you are licensed, and buy or sell, this is what you have to do.

This is actually the first item under the heading:

Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics.

This mean you just have to enter C&R firearms.

You can read the whole section here http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.125 (about 1/2 way down the page) or as mentioned page 67 of the book.

[noelf2]

That means, buying and selling by licensed collectors. It means if you are licensed, and buy or sell, this is what you have to do.

That's just not correct. "Buying and selling" isn't the same as "buy or sell". Somehow, in your interpretation, you are changing "and" to "or", and that makes a big difference (words matter).

"receipt and disposition" makes disposition reliant on receipt. In order to have a disposition, you must have a receipt. With no receipt comes no disposition. Same as if you "wash and dry" your hair. If you haven't washed it, it doesn't make much sense to dry it, now does it? If the ATF intended for you to enter dispositions the way you interpret, then they would have to make it very clear. What you see clearly in the text is not what I see clearly. The fact that we see it differently suggests it is poorly written and doesn't clearly convey the intent. That text has been around soooo long, without change, that I think the ATF doesn't really have a dog in your fight, or mine for that matter.

[noelf2]

Remember, I said I work federal policy for a living. My job is to make them clear, and it isn't easy. Let's analyze the key sentence you quote from regulation:

Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics.

In this sentence the ATF says "receipt and disposition" as well as "curios or relics". Would the sentence be the same if they wrote "curios and relics" instead? No it wouldn't. Curios aren't necessarily relics, and relics aren't necessarily curios, yet there are some that qualify as both at the same time (they would be curios and relics). ATF obviously (well to me at least) understands the difference in the meaning of "and" and "or".