Incendiary bullet manufacturers? - Page 2

troy_mclure · April 4, 2010, 11:31 AM

when shooting a high velocity bullet when that bullet stops that energy has to go somewhere, and is usually converted to heat.

just shoot a large rock, or thick metal at night and watch the sparks fly.

dbooksta · April 4, 2010, 12:19 PM

Exactly -- it's not just sparks. The bullet (or fragments) itself are extremely hot by the time they come to a stop. For example, a typical .308 carries something like 4 kJ of energy out of the muzzle, which is roughly 4 BTU. How hot does 150gr of lead become when heated by several BTU? Certainly hot enough to ignite brush.

TXGunNut · April 4, 2010, 01:19 PM

Really guys, do you really think we don't have goverment employees reading these posts? They're members here and some like the same toys we do and have some of the same views we do! Wouldn't be surprised if some trolling goes on but there are more productive places for that. This forum is a public place and if you don't want the whole world to read it, don't write it!
If dbooksta is interested in incendiary bullets and has a safe place to shoot and study them then I'm cool with that. I'm pretty sure he's well aware of the hazards. I think I'll pass, bad enough putting out the fires started by a muzzle loader in front of the bench and I don't have to run 100 yds or more to do it. Interesting reading, tho.

SL1 · April 4, 2010, 09:40 PM

with a very high probability, then there would be no market for incendiary bullets, and hunting would be banned in forests.

So, let's not try to pretend that incendiary bullets are not any different than what we normally talk about on this forum.

Maybe Dbooksta would like to inform us about how many BTUs are released by a 150 grain incendiary bullet. I think they will look quite different from the kinetic energy in a .308 bullet, especially when you consider TERMIMAL energy instead of MUZZLE energy.

SL1

Sport45 · April 4, 2010, 10:26 PM

Just so we're all on the same page...

A BTU is the amount of heat needed to raise 1 pound of water from 60°F to 61°F at one atmosphere of pressure. A cold soda setting on the counter probably soaks up 4 BTU every few minutes.

BTU is a measurement of heat, not temperature. To start a fire lead bullet fragments would have to exceed the autoignition temperature of whatever they landed on AFTER landing and transferring heat. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it would have to be an extraordinary circumstance that would put enough hot lead in one place to raise the temperature above its autoignition point. Dropping a freshly cast bullet in a pile of leaves might do it, but a bullet-weight spray of molten lead across the same pile would probably just give them a silvery coating. I'm not a caster, but I know that solder drips don't generally start fires (but propane torches do)

Incendiary bullets are designed to start fires and tracer material can still be burning when the bullet impacts. This will start a fire much more readily that splattered lead.

noyes · April 4, 2010, 11:04 PM

5,000 degrees Fahrenheit

bamaranger · April 5, 2010, 12:48 AM

The ban on ammo with jackets of mild steel (that will pull a magnet) on outdoor ranges in primarily the west , maybe USFS and BLM lands, is likely the result of concern over the mild steel jackets striking earth and sparking, leading to fires.

Don't ask me where or how I heard that, it's just something that surfaced in the gray matter.

As far as inquiry at to intended uses and limited uses for projectile types......that sounds to much like the slams and propaganda we've heard on "cop killer bullets", dum dum bullets, those awful black talons, military calibers, lead shot, and now, can you believe it.....green bullets, for me not to be more than a bit skeptical about inquiries regarding my or others intentions, and parties making same.

SL1 · April 5, 2010, 07:50 AM

Bamaranger,

I understand your reaction to propaganda about things like "cop killer" bullets, etc. But, incendiary bullets are different. Nobody designed or made a bullet to kill cops. The name was supplied by the gun-banners in an attempt to mislead the unknowing public. And, the name was first coined for the KTW bullets that were specialty rounds that civilians were NOT using, and then applied to pretty much ALL of our bullets/cartridges useful for hunting deer.

But, that is NOT the situation with incendiary bullets. The manufactures CLEARLY state that their purpose IS to start fires. No gun banner propaganda involved in THAT. And, these are NOT bullets that we would actually use to hunt or for self-defense in our homes or on the streets or in the wilderness. Their uses seem to be pretty much restricted to military or terrorist-type activities against people and/or people's property.

So, it is kind of natural to wonder why somebody is on this forum seeking to obtain and load some incendiary bullets. Especially with the recent news stories about militias going wrong in this country. And, of course, this is the INTERNET, so you can't tell whether a poster is sitting in his living room a block down your street, or in a militia camp in the woods somewhere, or even in a cave in Pakistan next to Osama bin Laden

While I can fully understand the "boys and their toys" type interest in incendiary bullets, Dbooksta has been pretty guarded about revealing his intended use and has been pretty aggressive about challenging the integrity of those who raise the question. Both of those attributes fit the "profile" of a "militia mentality," and they further my distrust of him in this situation.

From a purely selfish point of view, I see no benfit to myself or any civilian gun owners or handloaders from Dbooksta learning about incendiary rounds. But, I do see a lot of potential for disaster to gun-owners and handloaders if somebody starts handloading incendiary rounds and uses them in some nefarious manner that makes national headlines. I mean, it would be better (for us) if any incendiary rounds used that way were obtained as fully-loaded rounds, because the reaction to that would probably be to block the supply of THAT TYPE of ammunition from civilian purchase. (And, frankly, that particular ban wouldn't affect me at all, but the gun-banners would probably try to broaden the ban even in that situation.) BUT, if those rounds were HANDLOADED, then it would play right into the hands of all of those gun-banners who want to ban the practice of handloading COMPLETELY.

So, with NO benefit and a potential for a LOT of trouble from having handloaders playing with incendiary bullets, I choose to not help further the practice.

SL1

April 4, 2010, 11:31 AM	#26
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	when shooting a high velocity bullet when that bullet stops that energy has to go somewhere, and is usually converted to heat. just shoot a large rock, or thick metal at night and watch the sparks fly. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

April 4, 2010, 01:19 PM	#28
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Big Brother Really guys, do you really think we don't have goverment employees reading these posts? They're members here and some like the same toys we do and have some of the same views we do! Wouldn't be surprised if some trolling goes on but there are more productive places for that. This forum is a public place and if you don't want the whole world to read it, don't write it! If dbooksta is interested in incendiary bullets and has a safe place to shoot and study them then I'm cool with that. I'm pretty sure he's well aware of the hazards. I think I'll pass, bad enough putting out the fires started by a muzzle loader in front of the bench and I don't have to run 100 yds or more to do it. Interesting reading, tho. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

April 4, 2010, 09:40 PM	#29
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	If lead core bullets started fires with a very high probability, then there would be no market for incendiary bullets, and hunting would be banned in forests. So, let's not try to pretend that incendiary bullets are not any different than what we normally talk about on this forum. Maybe Dbooksta would like to inform us about how many BTUs are released by a 150 grain incendiary bullet. I think they will look quite different from the kinetic energy in a .308 bullet, especially when you consider TERMIMAL energy instead of MUZZLE energy. SL1

April 4, 2010, 10:26 PM	#30
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Just so we're all on the same page... A BTU is the amount of heat needed to raise 1 pound of water from 60°F to 61°F at one atmosphere of pressure. A cold soda setting on the counter probably soaks up 4 BTU every few minutes. BTU is a measurement of heat, not temperature. To start a fire lead bullet fragments would have to exceed the autoignition temperature of whatever they landed on AFTER landing and transferring heat. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it would have to be an extraordinary circumstance that would put enough hot lead in one place to raise the temperature above its autoignition point. Dropping a freshly cast bullet in a pile of leaves might do it, but a bullet-weight spray of molten lead across the same pile would probably just give them a silvery coating. I'm not a caster, but I know that solder drips don't generally start fires (but propane torches do) Incendiary bullets are designed to start fires and tracer material can still be burning when the bullet impacts. This will start a fire much more readily that splattered lead. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

April 5, 2010, 12:48 AM	#32
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	Not certain, but.......... The ban on ammo with jackets of mild steel (that will pull a magnet) on outdoor ranges in primarily the west , maybe USFS and BLM lands, is likely the result of concern over the mild steel jackets striking earth and sparking, leading to fires. Don't ask me where or how I heard that, it's just something that surfaced in the gray matter. As far as inquiry at to intended uses and limited uses for projectile types......that sounds to much like the slams and propaganda we've heard on "cop killer bullets", dum dum bullets, those awful black talons, military calibers, lead shot, and now, can you believe it.....green bullets, for me not to be more than a bit skeptical about inquiries regarding my or others intentions, and parties making same.

April 4, 2010, 12:19 PM	#27
dbooksta Member Join Date: March 14, 2009 Posts: 49	Exactly -- it's not just sparks. The bullet (or fragments) itself are extremely hot by the time they come to a stop. For example, a typical .308 carries something like 4 kJ of energy out of the muzzle, which is roughly 4 BTU. How hot does 150gr of lead become when heated by several BTU? Certainly hot enough to ignite brush.

April 4, 2010, 11:04 PM	#31
noyes Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 1,032	5,000 degrees Fahrenheit

April 5, 2010, 07:50 AM	#33
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Bamaranger, I understand your reaction to propaganda about things like "cop killer" bullets, etc. But, incendiary bullets are different. Nobody designed or made a bullet to kill cops. The name was supplied by the gun-banners in an attempt to mislead the unknowing public. And, the name was first coined for the KTW bullets that were specialty rounds that civilians were NOT using, and then applied to pretty much ALL of our bullets/cartridges useful for hunting deer. But, that is NOT the situation with incendiary bullets. The manufactures CLEARLY state that their purpose IS to start fires. No gun banner propaganda involved in THAT. And, these are NOT bullets that we would actually use to hunt or for self-defense in our homes or on the streets or in the wilderness. Their uses seem to be pretty much restricted to military or terrorist-type activities against people and/or people's property. So, it is kind of natural to wonder why somebody is on this forum seeking to obtain and load some incendiary bullets. Especially with the recent news stories about militias going wrong in this country. And, of course, this is the INTERNET, so you can't tell whether a poster is sitting in his living room a block down your street, or in a militia camp in the woods somewhere, or even in a cave in Pakistan next to Osama bin Laden While I can fully understand the "boys and their toys" type interest in incendiary bullets, Dbooksta has been pretty guarded about revealing his intended use and has been pretty aggressive about challenging the integrity of those who raise the question. Both of those attributes fit the "profile" of a "militia mentality," and they further my distrust of him in this situation. From a purely selfish point of view, I see no benfit to myself or any civilian gun owners or handloaders from Dbooksta learning about incendiary rounds. But, I do see a lot of potential for disaster to gun-owners and handloaders if somebody starts handloading incendiary rounds and uses them in some nefarious manner that makes national headlines. I mean, it would be better (for us) if any incendiary rounds used that way were obtained as fully-loaded rounds, because the reaction to that would probably be to block the supply of THAT TYPE of ammunition from civilian purchase. (And, frankly, that particular ban wouldn't affect me at all, but the gun-banners would probably try to broaden the ban even in that situation.) BUT, if those rounds were HANDLOADED, then it would play right into the hands of all of those gun-banners who want to ban the practice of handloading COMPLETELY. So, with NO benefit and a potential for a LOT of trouble from having handloaders playing with incendiary bullets, I choose to not help further the practice. SL1