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July 9, 2009, 08:45 PM | #76 | |
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Often times, the victim, or their loved one, was injured by their assailant before they even remembered they had a gun--- which they eventually got to. As often as not, they had a .32ACP, .25 Auto, .38 Special, .22 RF, etc. They didn't use cover and likely didn't have time to use it, anyway. Reloads are almost non existent. Many fired out of fear while they, or a loved one, were already under assault. Yes, they're own lack of awareness and training allowed things to get to that point. You can read Chris Bird's "Thank God I Had A Gun" or John Waters' books about such citizens. While Waters' books are well done with regards to the details of the incidents, including the tactics used by criminals, his frequent faux pas related to the opertion of firearms is a little embarassilng at times. Still worth reading. While ordinary citizens operating on pure adrenalin and no training prevail more often than one might think, they only emphasize the huge advantages of proper training and tactics. And also awareness of tricks folks use to gain entrance to your home, or attack you on the street. As far as mind set is concerned, some of the citizens mentioned above survived because they had it. They sure didn't survive because of training. Last edited by Nnobby45; July 9, 2009 at 08:52 PM. |
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July 9, 2009, 08:56 PM | #77 |
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It's funny how most people believe protecting themselves is carrying a gun and all is solved. I preached situational awareness to my ex for years. She just never got it. So many times the little voice in my head say this is a bad situation or a bad place to be and I acted on that instinct. Avoiding trouble is a successful engagement, having to react usually means a failure in tactics somewhere.
My current girlfriend is a great believer in details and is very good at situational awareness and listening to that same warning voice in her head. Add to that the fact she is a great shot and she is better prepared to rotect herself than many are. The most curious thing to me about the original post is how did such a large group sneak up on this family? They had to be making a ton of noise. the lesson learned should be don't be so oblivious to your surroundings. |
July 9, 2009, 09:07 PM | #78 |
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How did a crowd sneak up?
They wouldn't have to sneak up. The family was at a fireworks display on the 4th. They were unlucky enough to be in an area where a group passing through was hostile. Nothing would particularly stand out about lots of people transiting after a fireworks display.
You could just as well ask why the crowd out celebrating Mardi Gras in Seattle in 2001 didn't realize a bunch of people in their midst would start a major brawl. Sometimes, when things start, you are already in the epicenter. I'm all for situational awareness. However, unless you avoid all crowds, there is no way to guarantee a brawl won't break out in any given crowd event you may attend. Note: In Georgia, where CCW laws are very liberal, I cannot legally carry at an event such as a 4th of July gathering. FWIW. |
July 9, 2009, 09:33 PM | #79 |
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Sorry, I am not buying that. If I am at a celebration or event and a crowd is moving directly my way I am on alert, whether they look dangerous or not. There is a difference between transitioning places and pruposely moving on someone or invading their space. If a large group is moving in my direction my radar goes on alert and I begin looking for a reason and then a way out.
I don't have the choice of concealed carry in Wisconsin so for me being hyper aware is really my only defense when I am in public. |
July 9, 2009, 09:41 PM | #80 |
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You don't have to buy it...
... but you can see similar situations on the news, any given week. So, it happens.
Funny thing about those who think "it can never happen to me." They tend to be grossly unprepared when "it" happens. |
July 9, 2009, 09:46 PM | #81 |
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Where in what I posted did i say it couldn't happen to me? In fact it has happened, the difference in both situations is that I ended up walking away unscathed. Luck of the draw.
I just don't understand standing there unaware of a group of roughly 50 people moving in my direction and not taking defensive actions or simply leaving. Waiting to see what they want does nothing but make you a victim. |
July 9, 2009, 09:48 PM | #82 |
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Matolman1: Excellent point
Matolman1, (as Sportbob mentioned earlier in his #11 post to your thread)
"you make far too much sense to post opinions on this forum"... Its true what Sportbob said: Each and everytime someone posts comments about taking a stand (TO NOT BE A VICTIM), the same old critics come out of the woodwork to demonize your suggestions. It has happened to me numerous times and I just let it roll off my back. My attitude is to always defend myself and more importantly, defend my family. That will always come first and the rest of it can take the back burner as far as I'm concerned. Each of us should do what they think best in a crisis situation (within reasonable legal boundries of course) when you feel your life and/or family's life is threatened. Just a note: 50 teenagers with fists and feet can kill you easily. They don't need a gun. Just ask the truck driver who was almost killed by the thugs in L.A. (when they drug him out of the truck and beat him to within an inch of his life) during the big riot a few years back. Having a gun (with extra ammo), sure as hell may have made a difference in that situation. No, you may not have enough ammo to take them all out but its sure better than just getting your butt stomped to death for doing nothing. Besides, the threat of getting shot more than likely will stop most folks and is sure better than than just standing there and taking whatever they dish out to you. I also agree: What the heck does lightning strikes really got to do with anything? Not too bright an analogy in my opinion. Bottom line: You tell the story! But you gotta be alive in order to do that. |
July 9, 2009, 09:51 PM | #83 |
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Noticing 50 people
If there are thirty or forty people around, a group of 50 moving is noticeable.
If there are several hundred to a few thousand around, which is typical of 4th of July fireworks displays, or any number of beach events, or holiday street festivals, a group of 50 will barely register. It's not like 50 people walking through your neighborhood on a Tuesday night. |
July 9, 2009, 09:52 PM | #84 |
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I've visited NYC any number of times...
... If I tried to leave the area every time 50 or so people walked my way, I could never stand around on the sidewalk on Broadway, 5th Avenue, etc. It all depends on the background.
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July 9, 2009, 10:05 PM | #85 |
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Look, you can play this as cutesy as you want and pretend you don't know what I mean if it makes you feel better.
There is a clear difference between 50 people moving in the same direction and 50 people purposely closing on someone or closing on a group of people. If nothing else the facial expressions should tell you something. Usually, a group moving through a crowd that has no intent other than to get from point A to point B does not focus on one specific person or group as they pass through. They are generally looking for the fastest easiest way out of the crowd to their destination. So pretend you don't understand what I mean if you need to, I can't say it any clearer than that. |
July 9, 2009, 10:10 PM | #86 |
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I understand exactly what you mean...
... but your point is only valid if they decide to target you BEFORE closing. If you happen to already be in the middle of a group, and then 1 or 2 idiots decide it would be fun to hassle you, and then their friends start jumping in...
I think this is a lot closer scenario to what happened to the victims in this case. I'm pretty sure ALL of us would notice a mob in chase and attack mode. But most instances I've seen in the news, and one or two I found myself in, developed in the manner I described. Crowd was not a threat, until a small subset of the crowd triggered events. Sorry if you think that's cutesy, but I find your interpretation to be unlikely in the extreme. |
July 9, 2009, 10:17 PM | #87 | |
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But then again and regardless, some folks, for ego needs, want to walk around suburbia in body armour packin MP5s and ready for mobs of teenagers or Zombies or whatever Me? No self respecting mob would ever attack a fat guy in a Hello Kitty Thong and pink platform pompom mules WildlightenupfrancisesAlaska TM |
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July 9, 2009, 10:30 PM | #88 |
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See what I mean!
Who knows Wild, the streets of America (nowadays) may be more dangerous than West Beirut... The city where I live in here in Florida is the murder capital of the state!
By the way, its not testosterone that makes us want to defend our life and family, its our obligation and our duty! No MP5's, just a Glock 21 this week. |
July 9, 2009, 10:39 PM | #89 | |
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WildseewhatimeanAlaska TM |
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July 9, 2009, 10:39 PM | #90 |
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MLeake...
And I made it clear my intent is to never let anyone into my circle of comfort without seeing them and attempting to guess their motive for being there. I have been in mob situations and walked away both times unscathed. Just because you find my idea different from yours does not make it wrong. |
July 9, 2009, 10:45 PM | #91 |
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FyredUp...
I was in Seattle when the mob violence broke out at Mardi Gras in 2001. My then-girlfriend was working publicity for Seagram's liquor promotions in Pioneer Square. For one thing, everywhere you went, the sidewalks were crowded. You couldn't possibly tell if a bunch of people moving en masse were a homogenous group, or just swept along in the ebb and flow of the crowd.
When violence broke out, it started with a fairly small group, and then it exploded. A lot of people tried to leave the area, but could not because they couldn't break through the crowd. So, at first nobody could tell what was happening. Then, when people could tell, they still couldn't leave very easily. In another example, that same former gf was leaving a bar one night, in company with some police officer friends of ours, who were in uniform. A group that was in the parking lot outside the bar suddenly erupted into a brawl, as she and the two cops were in the middle of the lot. She caught an errant punch to the face, and came home with a swollen cheek and a bloody nose. The crowd in the parking lot was nothing unusual, didn't raise her hackles or those of the two cops, until somebody threw a punch and a bunch of idiots joined in. It's nice that in your experiences you had both ample warning and avenues of escape. I'm here to tell you that this will quite often not be the case. |
July 10, 2009, 12:05 AM | #92 |
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Well, first of all, the last place you would find me would be at a Mardi Gras Celebration. Why go looking for trouble? A bunch of drunken out of control idiots looking for a reason to act like *******s. No thank you.
Walking thru a parking lot of a bar at night, with 2 uniformed police officers, and they see a group in the parking lot. You expect me to believe they had no indication of any trouble? And they were blindsided by the fight? Okay those cops are either fools or oblivious if they would walk into the midst of a group of people in a parking lot of a bar, at night. Both of these incidents have plenty of indications of trouble...IF the participants had been paying attention. |
July 10, 2009, 12:06 AM | #93 | ||
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Quote:
I was noting that this particular set of circumstances was pretty close to a 'no-win' situation. Firing on unarmed teenagers might very well drive them off, however, (a) it might not; and (b) even when you 'win', you lose. I was also agreeing with the logic of Vanya and Peetzakilla as Vanya described it in post #14: Quote:
You made an excellent point when you asked whether anyone was annoyed that this (hasn't yet been) classified as a hate crime - and that can be spun both ways. If a white guy had opened fire on a crowd of unarmed black teenagers, and had perhaps killed 3 or 4 of them, maybe put 1 in a wheelchair for life, and sent 2 or 3 more to the hospital with gunshot wounds - you don't need a law degree to know that that guy's life would be a steaming puddle of dung shortly thereafter. Rev. Al Sharpton would only be the first in the conga-line of haters who would lead the circus to your front door. As Peetza argues, there simply isn't any guarantee in a situation like this one that producing a firearm is going to resolve the situation in your favor. As Vanya notes, it could in fact lead to significantly more risk to your own loved ones if the crowd returns fire. That's why I described it as a tough call. Marshall was never knocked to the ground (per the report). He willingly 'waded in to the fight' when his friend was struck by one of the teens (e.g. he himself was not struck, his friend was and he then intentionally confronted and engaged the teens): "They said it started when one teen, without any words or warning, blindsided and assaulted Marshall's friend as he stood outside with the others. When Marshall, 39, jumped in, he found himself being attacked by the growing group of teens." A lawyer might point out that this is not necessarily a defensive act. Had Marshall then produced a pistol and shot and killed a number of the unarmed teens, he would need to explain at which precise point he felt his life to be in danger and why, etc. and no matter how he explained it, in the press it would still read that a white guy initially jumped into the fight, and then shot and killed a number of unarmed black teenagers. There is just no way this is going to end well..... No matter how many rounds Marshall carried with him. A big cannister of pepper-spray may have been useful, or possibly a Taser, but I don't see how lighting these kids up would have produced a "more optimal" outcome for Marshall. It would have been a tough call, either way. Just the humble opinion of a guy who has spent more time in courtrooms than he ever wanted to... Last edited by Doc Intrepid; July 10, 2009 at 12:12 AM. |
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July 10, 2009, 01:20 AM | #94 |
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I would just like to point out that it takes less then a second to pick up a mag from a pocket/mag holder, and reload. If you aren't shooting by the time they are within that 20-30 foot range, then I don't know. If this whole thing about not being able to reload was true, why haven't gunmen in large population areas been stopped in the midst of reloading? Because it takes less than a second.
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July 10, 2009, 03:18 AM | #95 | |
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Murder capital of Florida?
That must be Jacksonville? Below, quote from an other forum...
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Now as a 73 year (transplanted) old Brit, who has never taken a puff of drugs, or a needle except to donate blood, what is wrong with 16 to 21 year olds that they need a nose full of illegal substances, to "Feel good man!" Such activity's just so happen to peak, late nights, early AM! My lovely Wife likes live firework displays! Not me, the bangs are caused by black powder don't you know, and the big show in Washington DC (on TV) seen on our 47" TV did not have any trauma attached, thank you very much. I carry a pistol because I can, and just in case, the same reason I carry a spare wheel, and vehicle, and fire insurance. |
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July 10, 2009, 07:29 AM | #96 | |
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July 10, 2009, 08:48 AM | #97 |
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Thanks matolman1 for posting
I do appreciate all your posts. I am a retired woman and do not seem to have the testosterone problem the others keep mentioning.
Over 40 years ago I was a target of 2 bad guys, survived thanks to husband with shotgun, and bought my first gun from another state because local sheriff did not believe in women defending themselves. I now have a CCW and practice every week on free women's range day - bless their hearts. I carry most of the time; I cannot in daycare area when I pick up grandkids about once a week. I certainly do not have the strength to fight (never did) or now run away. I will shoot and if it so works out, die while defending myself and others. I did agree with all your posts. Thanks again. |
July 10, 2009, 08:50 AM | #98 | ||
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"flash mobs"
Here are a some more incidents of this type, which have happened recently; what's interesting is that some in Philadelphia appear to be coordinated through the racially-oriented "ourspace" site:
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July 10, 2009, 08:53 AM | #99 |
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Thanks for the info OP. Its good evidence that mob attacks do happen. Not sure if having a gun would have helped him or not it really depends if the mob was willing to sacrifice a few people to get in close or not.
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July 10, 2009, 09:18 AM | #100 |
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You have to assume that they are going to kill you. Shoot the leaders of the mob and the rest will flee...I hope.
If we all carried guns this would not happen, kids would be in school instead of out on the street, and we would all speak the king's English and be polite to each other.
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