loading 38/357's on a hornady lnl ap ?

rebs · February 2, 2016, 06:04 PM

One die is sizing, one is depriming and belling and the last is crimp. What positions do you put these dies in ?
For the tube to catch the primers the depriming die has to be in the first position, right ? How can you resize after belling the case mouth ? I am missing something here, can anyone tell me what it is ?
In what position on your lnl ap do you put the dies ?

LE-28 · February 2, 2016, 06:16 PM

Yes, the de-priming die has to be in the first position, I use the second for flaring, the third for powder the forth for a powder check die and the fifth for the seating/crimp die.

If you are using lead bullets you may want to put a seating die in the forth and a crimp die in the fifth. (two separate dies)
I can easily see the powder in the case under the forth station easily with straight walled cases, so I took the guts out of my powder cop die and set the empty shell to just touch the shell plate with the ram up on an empty press to offset the torque of the sizing die.
I only load straight walled pistol cases on mine so this may not apply to you. It helps keep my OAL more consistent by helping to stop the little bit of flex in the shell plate assy. If you want to use a powder check die I would recommend a lock out die (RCBS) so you don't have to look up each time. I would rather pay attention to what going on with what on the shell plate then to have to look up each time to see what the "Hornady Powder Cop die" is doing.

That part is up to what your comfort level is.

The first position is the hole in front of the back part of the frame of the press.
That is your starting point and the resizing die goes there.

LE-28 · February 2, 2016, 06:28 PM

Quote:

One die is sizing, one is depriming and belling and the last is crimp.

That is wrong. The sizing is also the de-priming die. It goes in the first station.

The belling or flaring die sits in the second station and that is all it does is flare.

hartcreek · February 2, 2016, 06:39 PM

LE 28

You are wrong. Dies have been made in the past that use a different progression. This very thing was covered in the last week. When using the older die sets on a progressive you just have to THINK. The newer die sets have depriming as the first step that aint so with the older sets.

With the older sets on straight wall cases you Size then deprime and bell reprime, powder drop then seat and crimp. By my count this takes a five position progressive. You might just have to be happy spitting used primers into a cardboard box.

rebs · February 2, 2016, 07:20 PM

I must have an older set because I have a sizing only die, then a depriming - belling die and then a seating crimp die.
I did set a different sizing die up with a depriming rod. It works. Then I set a mouth belling die in the second hole, powder in the third red hole and a seating crimping die in the fourth hole. Now it seems the seating crimping die screws all the way to touch the shell plate and doesn't put enough crimp on the case. Maybe I should just order a brand new set of dies ?

LE-28 · February 2, 2016, 07:37 PM

Rebs, The way I described the positions of the dies in my first post is the way the a-typical die set is supposed to be used in a LNL-AP. That's what you described in post 5.

Some do combine the powder measure with the flaring function and try to use the powder measure in position 2 so they can run a powder detecting die in position 3, a seating in position 4 and crimp in position 5.

You must have a really old or specialty set of dies of some sort.

What caliber are you reloading on your press?

It is just impossible to resize and flare with the same die.

alexcue · February 2, 2016, 07:45 PM

What brand of dies are they? maybe I just missed it.

THEWELSHM · February 2, 2016, 07:53 PM

Sound like Lee dies?

Thewelshm

Idaho Spud · February 2, 2016, 07:59 PM

I have an old Pacific 38/357 die set with the deprime on the flare (#2) die. I use a later set for my Hornady LnL.

I have an aftermarket flare insert for my powder measure so my die sequence for 38/357 (and other longer rounds) is:

station #1 - resize/deprime (of course then reprime next)
station #2 - powder measure (flaring takes place here with powder drop)
station #3 - powder cop die (or simply leave die out and look into case)
station #4 - bullet seat die
station #5 - crimp (roll or taper, whichever applies)

When doing short cases like 380, 9mm, 45 ACP, etc. into which I can see the powder charge, I put the measure in station #3. That way I don't have to advance the charged case 2 stations and risk spilling powder.

I never seat a bullet without using the powder cop die or looking into EVERY case. Might slow me down a bit, but I like to KNOW what's in there.

rebs · February 2, 2016, 08:00 PM

I have Older rcbs dies.
Does the Lee seating die also crimp ?

LE-28 · February 2, 2016, 08:59 PM

My Lee dies do.
They are the carbide dies that came with my Pro1000 back in 1992

hartcreek · February 2, 2016, 09:13 PM

rebs

The dies you have should work unless you are using old .357 dies to try and crimp .38s.

AGAIN This discussion was just done about a week ago. Back in the days before carbide inserts the steps were done a bit different with most brands.

rebs · February 3, 2016, 07:53 AM

I have it now and am ready to reload. Thank you guys for all your help and a special thank you to F. Guffy for all his help and generosity.

Real Gun · February 3, 2016, 07:57 AM

Yes, you should get a new set of dies meant for a progressive press. This will mean that you don't need an expander die unless a lead bullet specialty like the Lyman M-die. However, you will need the Hornady expander plug for inside the powder drop and the stop bracket for adjusting belling. You may also need a pistol caliber powder measure insert that does not come with the press but is needed for charges around 5 grains or less.

I have taken to buying dies individually to get best of breed in each one and to eliminate dies I won't use. RCBS is a mainstay for me but I am impressed with Lyman as well. I have various Reddings, which are nice, but I don't think that expense is always necessary. Others may be suitable, but these are my own favorites that I am comfortable recommending. Lee is not a good choice since they don't have threads long enough to fit an LnL AP very well.

I am not a fan of Hornady dies except that, if I use a combo seat/crimp, the Hornady works well enough and has a good adjustment design. For lead the RCBS Cowboy die cannot be beaten. The Hornady is just easier to find in stock as a separate die. I don't always use a combo die and might have a Redding Profile Crimp Die added. I have a bullet feeder station in a couple calibers, which forces me to use a combo seat/crimp. I also use an M-die which forces out any powder check, so in my loads I look first for powder charges with good volume that I can readily see at the bullet feeder station, up front at #4. The manual specifies station numbers, and it will be good to both refer to them in that sequence and to mark or label a couple. I have stickers on 3 and 5 and can extrapolate the rest.

You can avoid some duplication in these dies by buying a couple sets of Redding spacer rings that boost the dies up to magnum level, e.g. using 38 Special dies for 357 using exactly the same settings plus the increment of the spacer. Doing this pretty much requires that you have set screws on your lock rings You may need a few extra, and Hornady's design with tangential screws is a good one that won't damage die threads. There are workarounds for other lock nuts, but you will do well to use the Hornadys on a Hornady press.

mdemetz · February 3, 2016, 08:11 AM

My old RCBS 357 and Bonanza 44 non carbide dies have the de-capper on the expander die. RCBS sent me an adapter/de-capper the threads into the sizing die. I've since replaced the sizers and expanders with Lee carbide and powder thru.

Real Gun · February 3, 2016, 08:16 AM

Quote:

My old RCBS 357 and Bonanza 44 non carbide dies have the de-capper on the expander die. RCBS sent me an adapter/de-capper the threads into the sizing die. I've since replaced the sizers and expanders with Lee carbide and powder thru.

The context here is the Hornady LnL AP press, so I am wondering about your reference to a Lee powder measure die. Also I would never buy a Lee die for a Hornady LnL AP, although the ones that apply can be made to work if you already own them.

FITASC · February 3, 2016, 08:26 AM

I guess I am confused. Just loaded some 38 and 9mm last night. Die 1 sizes and deprimes (I also reprime as this is a single stage), die 2 flares, die 3 seats and crimp. I understand with a progressive a fourth position for powder drop is necessary, but otherwise, where is this fourth die coming from? I have pistol dies from RCBS, Hornady, Lee and none ever came with a separate seating and separate crimping die..................

Economist · February 3, 2016, 10:58 AM

FITASC, I also had no idea what he was talking about but then I read that he is using some old dies. I had no idea that stuff existed.

LE-28 · February 3, 2016, 05:16 PM

Quote:

I guess I am confused. Just loaded some 38 and 9mm last night. Die 1 sizes and deprimes (I also reprime as this is a single stage), die 2 flares, die 3 seats and crimp. I understand with a progressive a fourth position for powder drop is necessary, but otherwise, where is this fourth die coming from? I have pistol dies from RCBS, Hornady, Lee and none ever came with a separate seating and separate crimping die..................

How can you drop powder in the 4th station after you have seated and crimped a bullet in the third on a LNL-AP progressive press?

I think you mis-typed something here or you don't own a progressive.

The first station on a LNL-AP is seat and deprime
the second is flare
the third is powder measure
the forth is either powder die or seating die
the fifth is either crimp or seat and crimp.

Some people use a powder measure in the second station instead of the third but it has a flaring tip on it so it flares and dumps powder at the same time. This frees the third station up for a the powder detection die and the forth for the bullet seater and the fifth for the crimp.

If you try to deprime in the second station the primers have no where to go and will jam under the shell plate jamming up the press.

Your changing dies out in a single stage and we are talking about an Auto-Progressive Press.
Two completely different animals.

THEWELSHM · February 3, 2016, 08:15 PM

Lee dies work on the lnl I use Hornady dies for the most part on my lnl as follows.

Decaping and resizing station 1
Bullet seating station 2
Powder charge station 3
powder cop station 4
Seat and crimp station 5

Lee work too but length adjustments sometimes have to get creative...

Enjoy the press

Thewelshm

FITASC · February 3, 2016, 08:23 PM

How are you seating a bullet in station 2 before powder?...........

rebs · February 4, 2016, 06:48 AM

I am resizing in #1
Belling in #2
Powder in #3
Seating and crimping in #4
#5 has no die

I may get a powder cop but I can see the powder in the case when I set the bullet on the case.

LE-28 · February 4, 2016, 07:06 AM

FITASC, I see that you are speaking to the dies not the station positions.

Sorry man.

Quote:

but otherwise, where is this fourth die coming from? I have pistol dies from RCBS, Hornady, Lee and none ever came with a separate seating and separate crimping die..................

Most of the die sets don't come with separate seating and crimp dies. Using separate die for seating and crimping is usually a lead bullet thing.

When you have small crimp grooves or no grooves at all on your lead bullets, using separate dies to seat and crimp helps to not cut a lead ring off the bullet because with all in one dies, the bullet is still moving from the seating plunger while the crimp is reducing the diameter of the mouth of the case.

The lead ring that is in front of the mouth of the bullet will cause chambering problems. This is mostly with lead bullets for semi autos that head space on the mouth and have no crimp groove but using two dies to seat and crimp make life easier with a roll or taper crimp with any caliber or type round your loading.

Lead bullets with larger crimp grooves (like for revolvers) are pretty easy to setup an all in one die for with no problems. Plated and jacketed bullets aren't really a concern with this problem with the copper plating or jacket being as hard or harder then the case.

FITASC · February 4, 2016, 07:40 AM

That's good to know; and I am sure on a progressive it isn't that big of a deal. On a single stage, that is screwing in and out and working the handle one more time than necessary. I only load 158 LSWC in 38s and have been for over three decades; haven't changed that seat/crimp die once I originally got it set.

Quote:

FITASC, I see that you are speaking to the dies not the station positions.

Sorry man

NO biggie!

February 2, 2016, 07:59 PM	#9
Idaho Spud Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2010 Posts: 330	I have an old Pacific 38/357 die set with the deprime on the flare (#2) die. I use a later set for my Hornady LnL. I have an aftermarket flare insert for my powder measure so my die sequence for 38/357 (and other longer rounds) is: station #1 - resize/deprime (of course then reprime next) station #2 - powder measure (flaring takes place here with powder drop) station #3 - powder cop die (or simply leave die out and look into case) station #4 - bullet seat die station #5 - crimp (roll or taper, whichever applies) When doing short cases like 380, 9mm, 45 ACP, etc. into which I can see the powder charge, I put the measure in station #3. That way I don't have to advance the charged case 2 stations and risk spilling powder. I never seat a bullet without using the powder cop die or looking into EVERY case. Might slow me down a bit, but I like to KNOW what's in there. __________________ "I should have picked alcohol, drugs, or beating my wife..." Pete Rose

February 2, 2016, 08:00 PM	#10
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	I have Older rcbs dies. Does the Lee seating die also crimp ? Last edited by rebs; February 2, 2016 at 08:17 PM.

February 3, 2016, 07:57 AM	#14
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	Yes, you should get a new set of dies meant for a progressive press. This will mean that you don't need an expander die unless a lead bullet specialty like the Lyman M-die. However, you will need the Hornady expander plug for inside the powder drop and the stop bracket for adjusting belling. You may also need a pistol caliber powder measure insert that does not come with the press but is needed for charges around 5 grains or less. I have taken to buying dies individually to get best of breed in each one and to eliminate dies I won't use. RCBS is a mainstay for me but I am impressed with Lyman as well. I have various Reddings, which are nice, but I don't think that expense is always necessary. Others may be suitable, but these are my own favorites that I am comfortable recommending. Lee is not a good choice since they don't have threads long enough to fit an LnL AP very well. I am not a fan of Hornady dies except that, if I use a combo seat/crimp, the Hornady works well enough and has a good adjustment design. For lead the RCBS Cowboy die cannot be beaten. The Hornady is just easier to find in stock as a separate die. I don't always use a combo die and might have a Redding Profile Crimp Die added. I have a bullet feeder station in a couple calibers, which forces me to use a combo seat/crimp. I also use an M-die which forces out any powder check, so in my loads I look first for powder charges with good volume that I can readily see at the bullet feeder station, up front at #4. The manual specifies station numbers, and it will be good to both refer to them in that sequence and to mark or label a couple. I have stickers on 3 and 5 and can extrapolate the rest. You can avoid some duplication in these dies by buying a couple sets of Redding spacer rings that boost the dies up to magnum level, e.g. using 38 Special dies for 357 using exactly the same settings plus the increment of the spacer. Doing this pretty much requires that you have set screws on your lock rings You may need a few extra, and Hornady's design with tangential screws is a good one that won't damage die threads. There are workarounds for other lock nuts, but you will do well to use the Hornadys on a Hornady press. __________________ Not an expert, just a reporter. Last edited by Real Gun; February 3, 2016 at 08:06 AM.

February 3, 2016, 08:26 AM	#17
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	I guess I am confused. Just loaded some 38 and 9mm last night. Die 1 sizes and deprimes (I also reprime as this is a single stage), die 2 flares, die 3 seats and crimp. I understand with a progressive a fourth position for powder drop is necessary, but otherwise, where is this fourth die coming from? I have pistol dies from RCBS, Hornady, Lee and none ever came with a separate seating and separate crimping die.................. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

February 3, 2016, 08:23 PM	#21
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	How are you seating a bullet in station 2 before powder?........... __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

February 2, 2016, 06:04 PM	#1
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	loading 38/357's on a hornady lnl ap ? One die is sizing, one is depriming and belling and the last is crimp. What positions do you put these dies in ? For the tube to catch the primers the depriming die has to be in the first position, right ? How can you resize after belling the case mouth ? I am missing something here, can anyone tell me what it is ? In what position on your lnl ap do you put the dies ?

February 2, 2016, 06:16 PM	#2
LE-28 Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 759	Yes, the de-priming die has to be in the first position, I use the second for flaring, the third for powder the forth for a powder check die and the fifth for the seating/crimp die. If you are using lead bullets you may want to put a seating die in the forth and a crimp die in the fifth. (two separate dies) I can easily see the powder in the case under the forth station easily with straight walled cases, so I took the guts out of my powder cop die and set the empty shell to just touch the shell plate with the ram up on an empty press to offset the torque of the sizing die. I only load straight walled pistol cases on mine so this may not apply to you. It helps keep my OAL more consistent by helping to stop the little bit of flex in the shell plate assy. If you want to use a powder check die I would recommend a lock out die (RCBS) so you don't have to look up each time. I would rather pay attention to what going on with what on the shell plate then to have to look up each time to see what the "Hornady Powder Cop die" is doing. That part is up to what your comfort level is. The first position is the hole in front of the back part of the frame of the press. That is your starting point and the resizing die goes there. Last edited by LE-28; February 2, 2016 at 06:26 PM.

February 2, 2016, 06:39 PM	#4
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	LE 28 You are wrong. Dies have been made in the past that use a different progression. This very thing was covered in the last week. When using the older die sets on a progressive you just have to THINK. The newer die sets have depriming as the first step that aint so with the older sets. With the older sets on straight wall cases you Size then deprime and bell reprime, powder drop then seat and crimp. By my count this takes a five position progressive. You might just have to be happy spitting used primers into a cardboard box.

February 2, 2016, 07:20 PM	#5
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	I must have an older set because I have a sizing only die, then a depriming - belling die and then a seating crimp die. I did set a different sizing die up with a depriming rod. It works. Then I set a mouth belling die in the second hole, powder in the third red hole and a seating crimping die in the fourth hole. Now it seems the seating crimping die screws all the way to touch the shell plate and doesn't put enough crimp on the case. Maybe I should just order a brand new set of dies ?

February 2, 2016, 07:37 PM	#6
LE-28 Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 759	Rebs, The way I described the positions of the dies in my first post is the way the a-typical die set is supposed to be used in a LNL-AP. That's what you described in post 5. Some do combine the powder measure with the flaring function and try to use the powder measure in position 2 so they can run a powder detecting die in position 3, a seating in position 4 and crimp in position 5. You must have a really old or specialty set of dies of some sort. What caliber are you reloading on your press? It is just impossible to resize and flare with the same die.

February 2, 2016, 07:45 PM	#7
alexcue Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2015 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 134	What brand of dies are they? maybe I just missed it.

February 2, 2016, 07:53 PM	#8
THEWELSHM Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2015 Location: Brandon Fl Posts: 236	Sound like Lee dies? Thewelshm

February 2, 2016, 08:59 PM	#11
LE-28 Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 759	My Lee dies do. They are the carbide dies that came with my Pro1000 back in 1992

February 2, 2016, 09:13 PM	#12
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	rebs The dies you have should work unless you are using old .357 dies to try and crimp .38s. AGAIN This discussion was just done about a week ago. Back in the days before carbide inserts the steps were done a bit different with most brands.

February 3, 2016, 07:53 AM	#13
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	I have it now and am ready to reload. Thank you guys for all your help and a special thank you to F. Guffy for all his help and generosity.

February 3, 2016, 08:11 AM	#15
mdemetz Member Join Date: September 23, 2009 Posts: 73	My old RCBS 357 and Bonanza 44 non carbide dies have the de-capper on the expander die. RCBS sent me an adapter/de-capper the threads into the sizing die. I've since replaced the sizers and expanders with Lee carbide and powder thru.

February 3, 2016, 10:58 AM	#18
Economist Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2014 Posts: 163	FITASC, I also had no idea what he was talking about but then I read that he is using some old dies. I had no idea that stuff existed.

February 3, 2016, 08:15 PM	#20
THEWELSHM Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2015 Location: Brandon Fl Posts: 236	Lee dies work on the lnl I use Hornady dies for the most part on my lnl as follows. Decaping and resizing station 1 Bullet seating station 2 Powder charge station 3 powder cop station 4 Seat and crimp station 5 Lee work too but length adjustments sometimes have to get creative... Enjoy the press Thewelshm

February 4, 2016, 06:48 AM	#22
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	I am resizing in #1 Belling in #2 Powder in #3 Seating and crimping in #4 #5 has no die I may get a powder cop but I can see the powder in the case when I set the bullet on the case.