Patton 1911

[Bucksnort1]

When I watch a WWII movie, I look for authenticity in equipment and weapons. I know movie producers and directors can't find 100 German Panzer tanks for a tank scene or 100 ME109G fighters for a scene so they substitute but when it comes to onesey twosey items, like an American pistol, I expect it to be accurate. One movie in particular where the producers were too lazy to do the necessary research is, "Where Eagles Dare". One of the first scenes is Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton being inserted behind enemy lines in German in a Bell helicopter.

Recently, I watched a few minutes of the movie, "Patton". I was at the point where Patton's unit is being straffed by German fighters. You see Patton with his back to the camera for most of the scene, shooting at the fighters with his 1911. He then faces the camera and continues to shoot. Now, I'm not an expert on the 1911 and other Colt pistols but I have seen enough photos and read enough articles to know there were predecessors to the 1911, in different calibers, of course. These pistols have the basic shape of a 1911 but are somewhat thinner. The scene doesn't allow you to scrutinize what Scott is holding in his hand but to me it does not look like a 1911. It looks like a predecessor to the 1911. No, it wasn't his 1873 Peacemaker with the ivory grips he wore on his right hip. Any comments?

[tangolima]

General Patton carried a browning high power.

-TL

[RJay]

Patton fired at the German plane with his 1908 Colt Hammerless. One scene showed him tucking it into his blouse. No where in the movie does it show him handling a 1911. I know Patton carried a Colt Hammerless, he was also photographed with a Colt Woodsman. and reports states he had a Remington 51, plus his two revolvers. A High Power? I've never heard or read that.

[SaxonPig]

Patton's usual sidearm was a Colt SAA. Sometimes he balanced it with a 3.5" S&W "Registered Magnum" on the other side. He was also known to carry a Colt 380 auto (I'll take RJay's word for it as a 1908 Model). This last one is the gun Patton is seen shooting at the bombers.

[Lurch37]

Everything that I've read about Patton states he started off carrying two Single Action Armies. After gifting one of those to a Hollywood star, he replaced that with a 3 1/2 inch Smith&Wesson .357 Mag. He also carried at different times, a .32 Colt Hammerless, a Remington Model 51, and a Colt Dectective Special. I also read It was with the Remington Model 51 that he shot at the incoming German fighters.

[Mike Irwin]

Patton occasionally carried a 1911, but apparently wasn't fond of it.

One thing I read about him is that he liked mucking around with his guns to get the best trigger pull possible. He attempted to do that with a 1911, the end result being that the gun either went full auto on him, or discharged from being bumped, and that somewhat soured him on the gun.

Patton also supposedly at one point owned a Colt Detective Special.

As far as I know, there is absolutely no record of Patton ever carrying, using, or owning a Browning Hi Power.

[Bucksnort1]

Tangolima,

This answers the question. I am right, he was not using a 1911 in the movie. Thanks for the clarification.

[BarryLee]

FYI – IMFDB list of firearms used in the movie Patton and pictures of some of his actual guns. Also, they do confirm that in the film he used a Colt 1903 Hammerless to shoot at the plane.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Patton

[James K]

There is no way that anyone could tell from most pictures whether the pistol is a 1903 (.32 ACP) or a 1908 (.380 ACP). The guns are identical and Colt made no model distinction, calling the gun the Pocket Hammerless in both calibers.

I, like others, have never heard of, or seen any record of, Patton carrying a Browning High Power.

There is a story that Omar Bradley once was asked by a reporter why he didn't carry a sidearm as Patton did. The reply was classic: "Son, at the last morning report, I had over two million men under my command; if they can't stop the Germans, I don't think one lousy pistol is going to do much good."

Jim

[SaxonPig]

Everything I've read called it a 380 and not a 32.

Never heard of a second SAA.

[Bob Wright]

I remember reading somewhere a copy of his letter writing to someone "back home" for his Remington Model 51. At the time he was in North Africa preparing for the invasion of Sicily.

Bob Wright

[JohnMoses]

The General Officers Pistols were 1908 380's. These were issued to men reaching the rank of general until the supplies were exhausted. They were doing M9's, but I think they are using (or allowing as an option), a custom 1911.

[Jim Watson]

The General Officers' Pistol of WWII was a Colt Pocket Hammerless. I do not know if they were all .380 or if there were some .32s.

In the 1970s, RIA (The real one, not the Filipino brand name.) produced the M15 G.O.P. which was a 1911 cut down in length to approximate a Combat Commander.

Since then, they have been provided with a regular GI Beretta with fancy belt and holster.

The USAF provided at least some of its Generals with S&W M39s.

There is a new book out on the subject.
http://johnwbrunnerbooks.com/

[RickB]

One thing I read about him is that he liked mucking around with his guns to get the best trigger pull possible. He attempted to do that with a 1911, the end result being that the gun either went full auto on him, or discharged from being bumped, and that somewhat soured him on the gun.

I've also heard that Patton's AD was at some sort of function, and he was hurried out as it was thought to be an assassination attempt. He was so embarrassed that he never officially addressed it.
I've seen pics of Patton with his SAA, Colt hammerless, Remington 51, and Colt Woodsman. Now that I think about it, I may have seen a pic of a 1911 in a shoulder holster, with the customary monogrammed ivory stocks.
Despite the well-publicized double holster rig for the SAA and S&W Magnum, I've never seen a pic of Patton wearing the .357.

[JohnMoses]

The Peacemaker and RM are on display at the Patton museum, right down the road from Fort Knox. If you are in the area, it's worth a visit. I don't recall the 1908, but it was a while ago.

[Bucksnort1]

All, I'm going to maybe make this more interesting by saying I first learned Patton carried the 1873 SAA on his right hip and the S&W .357 on his left hip.

[bubbaturbo]

I don't remember Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton in a helicopter. I thought they parachuted in. I remember a German general showing up in one though.

[Ozzieman]

bubbaturbo +1

[RJay]

In the movie, " Where Eagles Dare " They parachuted in, if you remember, one of the men was murdered after landing, by an unknown ( at the time ) member of the assault team.. Fun flick, but of course anything that Richard Burton or Clint Eastwood played in was a good movie. In reference to General Patton, he sometimes wore one gun, the single action ( with two notches for two Mexican Bandits ), most times if he was going to be seen by his troops or the press he wore both, he didn't like to wear both because of the weight but as he wrote his son ( I met his son ) " the troops expect to see them". He never carried the Model 51 out side of the states, he did pull it one time in New York. His personal issued handgun was a Colt 1908 Hammerless. He carried it sans holster inside his blouse tucked into his belt. There were many times he didn't carry the big guns, but he always had that little Colt with him. He wasn't paranoid about it, but he knew he was on the German hit list if opportunity ever presented itself.

[Mike Irwin]

This article says that the General Officer's Model program started in 1944, and Patton was a recipient of one.

http://www.army.mil/article/6938/Gen..._rich_history/

It sounds as if all of them were .380s.

[Bake]

The USAF provided at least some of its Generals with S&W M39s.

The story I heard was that USAF (while under General Le May) was the main driving forces behind S&W developing the 9mm for the military. Never were enough model 39's, so the AF issued 38 spe. M&Ps revolvers to the ground troops, and models 39's to aircrews. The first run (maybe 500) were all steel, and (never issued to the aircrew) , were pretty good autos. The second run had the alloy frame, and were issued the aircrews, and were a POS...

[Rembrandt]

There's been some debate whether the gun shown here was a 1911 or 1908.

[Cyanide971]

Originally Posted by JohnMoses

The Peacemaker and RM are on display at the Patton museum, right down the road from Fort Knox. If you are in the area, it's worth a visit. I don't recall the 1908, but it was a while ago.

Don't forget the other, much smaller (but still great) Patton Museum out at Chiriaco Summit, CA on I-10! Just a few shots from my last visit out there...

[T. O'Heir]

The gun shown here is a revolver. A Smith, I think. There was something about it in one of the biographies I read long ago. Second Armoured Div. training exercise just before the U.S. joined us in the WAR.
Georgie was an Olympic class shooter(Modern pentathlon. 1912. Used a .38.). Carried what he felt like carrying. Generals can do that.
The scowl in official photographs was self-developed for his image. Georgie was a bit nuts.
"...German general showing up in one..." Artistic licence.

[Lost Sheep]

When he was stationed near El Paso before the Pancho Villa raid on Columbus, NM that caused the 1916 fracas, Patton and his wife attended a party in the town near his post. Patton thrust his issue 1911 Colt into the front of his pants, obviously cocked and hopefully locked. But if originally locked it did not stay locked. The gun fired nearly wrecking the family jewels. He brazened it out for the rest of the party, but never trusted 1911s again.

This is in his biography by Carlo d'Este, who had access to all his letters and documents, as well as his family's recollections.

Caveat: This is second hand to me. If anyone wants to research the biography, there it is. I have no reason to doubt the quote.

Lost Sheep