Disappointing Day at the Local Trading Post

[djdasher]

Stopped at my local Trading Post in Maine to pick up musket caps and a nipple wrench. I'm outfitting to shoot my 1841 "Mississippi" musket. I bought Vorderlader-Zundhutchen No. 1081 caps and a Traditions A1421 musket wrench:

The caps seem to be way too big. Aren't caps supposed to fit somewhat snuggly so that they won't fall off? These are so sloppy on the nipple that any rocking of the rifle would cause the caps to fall off. It obviously is not a good fit. Aren't musket caps all musket caps?

The nipple wrench will barely fit over the nipple. I have to forcefully push down on the wrench while attempting to turn the wrench in order for the wrench not to slip off of the square base of the nipple. The wrench will not bottom out on the nipple base for a good fit. Are the 1841 nipples not like all of the other "Civil War" rifle nipples?

Not to mention the fact that the nipple won't budge. Which way should the wrench turn to remove the nipple? Does "righty tighty - lefty loosie" apply here?

Thanks for listening to this little rant...

DJ

[4V50 Gary]

Take a needle file to that wrench and deepen it.

[Hawg]

The caps you have are RWS and yes they should fit snug. The nipple turns counterclockwise to come off but its probably frozen in place. You can try soaking it in something like Kroil overnight but it may take heat to remove it.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

A read you did have a bad day. And as suggested in a previous comment. File that nipple wrench a tad for better fit. As far as musket nipples. I do know there are two different explosive potency musket caps available from RWS. Whether they differ in size I'm not sure. {Perhaps another member here would have an answer on that subject. >RWS musket cap sizes.}
I take it you've had this rifle for some time. Have you always had problem with loose fitting musket caps when capping it in the past? My suggestion: I'd switch to a different brand of musket caps first for the simplest resolve. If no change, I guess the only other alternative would be to change out your rifles musket nipple with another brand new nipple. Or perhaps as I've done occasionally. Bite the cap ever so lightly prior to their nipple mounting.

Which way should the wrench turn to remove the nipple? Does "righty tighty - lefty loosie" apply here?

Yes it does. You are correct in your direction of turn.

Not to mention the fact that the nipple won't budge.

Very first thing: (MAKE SURE YOUR RIFLE ISN'T LOADED) Second: make sure the nipple wench touched up with a file fits your rifles nipple snugly.
Then a good Kroil soak for a couple days may loosen it.
A tool that comes to mind but certainly not recommended for a novice. Propane torch's lightly heating. More often proves beneficial than not in this type of rusty or frozen thread situation. But only used as a last resort to loosen.


S/S

[bedbugbilly]

Musket caps are musket caps - I've used a number of brands - Alcan - RWS - Navy Arms, etc. over the years and they all should fit. I'd be more inclined to question the nipple. Are you sure that it hasn't been "turned down" some by the previous owner or have you always owned it? Or, for some reason the nipple has eroded? (i.e. worn down due to use, corrosion, etc. that would affect the diameter of it?) Years ago, nipples were available that fit the rifled muskets that would allow you to utilize smaller caps. I switched out a nipple in an original Enfield one time and installed a Ampco nipple that allowed me to use #12 caps. Check that out before you go out and buy a bunch of different cap brands.

To get the nipple out - follow what Hawg suggests in regards to soaking it. Sometimes they can be a bear to get out if they've been in a long time. I've run in to this many times on original rifled muskets where the nipple hasn't been removed for many, many years. I have had some that were so bad that I had to drill them out, using a smaller diameter drill than the thread size and utilizing a "take me out" tool. This was in extreme cases and I wouldn't recommend that route if you don't have the equipment or experience in machining - the end results could ruin your bolster.

In regards to which direction it unscrews . . . as I used to teach my junior high shop kids . . . 'lefty loosey . . . rightsy tightly". It is rare that you will encounter a left hand thread on a firearm. On any piece of machinery, a left hand thread is utilized when there is motion that would tend to loosen a right hand thread. Be patient and take the time to soak it - it should breaks loose. When you get it out . . . replace it with a brand new nipple and you won't have to worry about it for a very long time. I have a Remington Zouave that still has the Ampco nipple I put in it back in the 1960s - and it is still doing the job just fine after thousands of rounds through the rifle.

Good luck - it will all work out for you.

[djdasher]

This is a rifle that I bought a few months ago from a friend. Apparently, the nipple is frozen in place because of the rust that I found on various parts of the gun on disassembly. I'll try working on the wrench a little to see whether I might be able to open it up a bit. I've used heat on nuts and bolts to loosen them up before, but I wonder whether the heat might ruin the barrel's browning?

As far as the caps are concerned, they are not just a little loose, they are sloppy loose. I feel that too much "blow-by" will get to the stock and burn it.

What is RWS?

[Captchee]

Just quick comment about opening up a nipple hole .
Unless you know what your doing , you might want to think twice about that .
The hole in a nipple isn’t just a strait hole . Its actually built with a restriction that give the hole a nozzle. This does two things , it magnifies the power of the cap and it reduces the amount of back pressure the lock is subject to upon ignition ..
The hammer has two purposes on a percussion gun .
a) it ignites’ the cap
b) it acts as a pressure valve in that it resists the pressure being blow back out of the nipple upon ignition

If your nipple hole gets to big or your main spring becomes to weak , the hammer of your lock cannot resist the pressure and it will blow back .
This happening is not a good thing . I have actually seen this blow back become so great that it will twist the hammer right off the lock and send it flying .
In cases where the blowback is only enough to bring the hammer back to 1/2 cock , it also is slamming the sear back into the ½ cock notch , which can result in a broken tumbler , broken sear or both

[djdasher]

I did not consider that someone may have "tampered" with the nipple to allow it to accept smaller caps, although I've seen other such mutilations. I'll get a good look at the nipple later today to see if this is the case. I have some revolver caps that I will try on for size.

As far as drilling out the nipple is concerned, I think that it's still too early to go that route. One thing for certain: That nipple has to come out. There was rust in the barrel and on the lock. I can't imagine that the inside of the bolster isn't rusting. Whatever the case, I'll proceed with caution.

Filing the nipple wrench to a proper fit seems like a prudent and cautious first step.

[PetahW]

.


FWIW, I started muzzleloading in the late-60's with a gun that required "top hat", or musket, caps, and got myself edjumikated pretty fast.

It was common knowledge that any user should pinch the musket cap slightly out-of-round prior to placing it on the nipple, to ensure a solid seat/grip of the cap on the nipple.


.

[bedbugbilly]

Captchee - I don't think anyone mentioned drilling out the flash channel of a nipple. If you are referring to my post . . . I was talking about actually having had to drill nipples out of the bolster. I had to do this on several originals that I collected many years ago. This was accomplished by utilizing a milling machine - drilling down through the flash channel with a drill of a size that was smaller diameter than the threads of the nipple. This allowed for the insertion of an "easy out". Trust me . . . . this is a last resort and requires the right machinery and the courage to do it. I am NOT recommending that the OP go this route. Nor am I recommending that anyone open up a flash channel of a nipple.

Soaking the breech and perhaps an application of a little heat should allow for his nipple to break loose. The important thing is to not strip the shoulders of the nipple with an ill fitting wrench. It just takes patience and it isn't something that a person wants to rush or take shortcuts on.

In the 60s, for what reproductions there were, most came with a cheap steel "production" nipple - they weren't always the best. And yes,d you sometimes had to pinch a winged musket cap so it would fit. I've done that as welll with 4 and 6 winged caps and the way that the cap is made, the wings make this easy to do. However, a cap and a nipple should match. We hear often here onthis forum about "my caps don't fit". A loose fitting cap can cause a variety of problems - especially on a revolver. The same for a rifle or a shotgun. There are many excellent musket nipples out there. The bank isn't going to go broke in order to purchase one - a Ampco or similar will last many years. As I said in my original post . . . musket caps are musket caps . . . if the OP has a nipple on which they are loose, then it should be changed and replaced with a quality nipple that the caps fit correctly on. In the long run, it will not only be safer but allow him to enjoy shooting the rifle more . . . and not have to worry about the cap falling off or a greater possibility of cap fragments flying around.

[djdasher]

Hi Mr. Bug,

I have a Dixie catalogue. Which nipple would you suggest that I buy for this Navy Arms reproduction?

Tonight I'll put the barrel (padded) into my bench vise and try to loosen the nipple without heat. I'll first have to (as suggested) open the nipple wrench mouth a little so that I get an exact fit.

Thank you.

DJ

[Captchee]

Sorry bedbug i guess i miss read your post.
Yes a nipple can be drilled out by using smaller size bits and then increasing the size tell the remainder of the nipple can be backed out with a tap or crushed and removed .

However one must also be careful when doing this as in some cases the nipple hole can be faced so that the nipple threads seal . It can be rather tricky to make sure you don’t drill out that shoulder in the process of drilling out the nipple .

I would agree with what your saying in that going slow , using a good penetrating oil and a proper fitting wrench is the best option

[pohill]

I have an antique muzzleloading rifle that uses a musket cap nipple or a #11 cap nipple (same threads). Could it be that someone put a #11 cap nipple on the gun?
Check out this site (Track of the Wolf)
You can get a 5/16-24 thread nipple that takes either a musket cap or #11 cap.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/807/1

[djdasher]

Good morning all,

I opened the jaws of my Traditions nipple wrench with a file and was able to remove the nipple on my Navy Arms 1841 "Mississippi" reproduction musket without much trouble. I found rust and soon took care of that. I was looking through the latest Dixie catalogue as I wish to find a nipple and cap combination that will fit my rifle better. I believe that a 5/16 X 24 nipple is appropriate for my rifle? Also, will the CCI musket caps (IA0604) be a good fit for this size nipple?

Thanks,

DJ

[pohill]

Did you read over the Track of the Wolf chart for nipples and caps that I posted? There's good info there. But first you have to know what size the threads are in your rifle. If you don't, you might buy the wrong nipple.
Have you determined why the musket caps did not fit the nipple that you removed? Is it a #11 cap nipple?

[DD4lifeusmc]

Generally yes they are all the same size.
My guess is a previous owner replaced it with a number 11 nipple.
Many areas it is hard to get musket caps regularly.
So some switch to a #11 magnum.
Granted not as good, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
I keep a #11 in my Sharps patch box for just such issues.
So I would see how a #11 cap fits.
I know this doesn't explain the wrench fit ment

traditions shows this A1421 to be a combination wrench. One end Musket
the other end #11

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/p...e-wrench-a1421

[djdasher]

Pohill,

Sorry for not adding that information: No. 11 caps will not fit the nipple, they are way too small. There is no indication that the nipple has been altered. My micrometer measures the outside diameter of the threads to be 5/16th's. I guess that my nipple is a traditional nipple. I wonder whether the CCI caps would be a better fit?

The 1421 wrench had to be opened slightly to fit the nipple. No problem there.

[pohill]

How does the rest of the gun look? Any rust in the barrel? Do you have powder, roundballs, patches, etc?
I buy just about all of my black powder "stuff" at the Kittery Trading Post, and they have everything that you need - except the nipples.
I switched from the #11 cap nipple to the musket cap nipple because my rifle is finicky about ignition. The musket caps work perfectly.
I brought the nipple to the local hardware store and measured the threads with their thread measuring gauge.

[Hawg]

What is RWS?

RWS is the brand of caps you bought. Be careful you don't get CCI reenactor caps, they're not hot enough for reliable ignition with live loads.

[djdasher]

The rest of the rifle is fine. There was some rust near the muzzle, but I cleaned that up. Some rust under the nipple, as well. I took the rifle down to lock, stock and barrel for a cleaning and look-see. I have near everything that I'll need to fire it except for 2FF, a flask and measuring device. Oh yeah...caps...I need better fitting caps.

I have 460 gr. minie's by M & P Cast Bullet. I hope that this rifle doesn't dislocate my shoulder.

[Hawg]

With those light minies and 60-70 grains of powder it will be a pussycat.

[djdasher]

I sense some tongue in cheek there.

[kwhi43]

He's right. They don't start smacking you in the mouth until you get it up
To around 110-120 grs. They it will start talking to you. You might even have
A few choice words for it!

[djdasher]

110 grains? That's almost twice the 60 that I've read was "standard". Oh boy, I don't know s*** from Shinola about what that rifle can do.