R-P 45 ACP Cases

[William T. Watts]

Brian Pfleuger has mentioned several times that it wasn't necessary to flare 45ACP cases to seat the bullets, frankly I didn't think too much of the idea but it did get me to thinking. I purchased 200 virgin factory primed R-P cases several years ago that I encountered a bullet set back problem. As a matter of course I flare all my cases but bullet set back occurred only with the Remington case, I finally got around to using my calipers to check side wall thickness of the Remington case and found they are .010". I checked Starline, W-W, & F-C and found they are a full .001 thicker or more. After eye balling where the bullet set in the mouth of the R-P case I think the bullet will self center and not be a problem during the seating process. I do not think there would be any benefit to try to crimp the case but at least I'm going to try to load a few of the virgin Remington cases and may try some once fired R-P cases rather than pitch them in my recycle bucket. William

[condor bravo]

You didn't indicate whether you are using jacketed or cast lead bullets. If using jacketed, you might want to try cast since they are sized .001 or so over jacketed and would fit the cases tighter. Flaring is advisable to prevent lead shaving during seating and then of course apply just enough taper crimp to remove the flare. I prefer the Federal brass over Win and Rem.

[Hammerhead]

Did the set back problem occur with the R-P brass the first time you used them or did it happen after you resized/reprimed them?
Maybe R-P doesn't size them tight enough.
A .001" thickness change doesn't seem like enough to cause problems.

I've loaded at lot of jacketed 9mm .40 and .45 without flaring and that will fix set back problems. Generally it takes a very good seating die and good technique to seat the bullets straight without flaring.

[T. O'Heir]

You're getting far more complicated than you need to. However, Remington brass, if it is Remington, can be a bit thinner than other brands. Makes no difference.

[Sevens]

"Makes no difference" ? Don't agree at all. Unnoticed and unintended bullet setback happening in semi-auto pistols under the harsh movement of the handgun feeding round in a normal firing cycle is simply dangerous. More so in some cases than in others.

I believe it's long been a contributing factor in otherwise "unknown" catastrophic failures and kabooms, but the evidence is destroyed in the process.

lack of case mouth tension/bullet pull is a genuine problem that needs to be diagnosed and addressed. And in revolvers, also.

[William T. Watts]

I use only 230gr Round Nose Jacketed bullets either Hornady or Winchester which ever is available. I don't know if chambering or the battering/movement in the clip during firing pushed the bullet further into the case. I have never fired any of the 45ACP cases a 2nd time primarily because I'm not particularly fond of Remington's 45ACP or 30/30 cases which are lightly constructed. Nothing wrong with their other rifle cases I.E. 270. 280, 30/06 etc, the rest of the Remington components I have zero complaints, just these two orphans!! William

[Sevens]

I find it easier to list the different chamberings where Remington brass does not annoy me and require specific attention to detail expressly due to the thin nature of the brass:

.44 Magnum, 9mm

Of the calibers that I run a lot of, those two don't seem to give me any specific annoyances or hassles. All the rest do. The stuff is thinner. It does not seem to crack or split quickly, I'll give it that, but I need to make adjustments when processing it and I need to be cognizant of which particular bullet I happen to be loading in to them on that day. I have some situations where I simply will NOT use R-P headstamp pistol brass and it is for certain, 100% for this reason.

[zeke]

Good idea to make dummy round (no powder or primer), put in mag and use slide release from lock back. Winchester fmj has lesser dia than most, rem 45 acp brass thinner than most.

Lee makes undersize sizing dies and universal case expander that only expands the mouth of case. Or u can reduce dia of exopnding plug, leaving portion that expands case mouth (depends on what die you use).

Rem 45 acp brass is thin and less ductile, and personally won't use it with jacketed bullets, especially win 230 fmj.

[std7mag]

I use (and I believe Brian does also, but check with him to be sure) Lee dies.
Mine are set in a 4 hole turret press.
Lee uses one die to deprime, and size.
Next die actually flares the mouth, and drops the powder.
Next is seating the bullet.
And finally the crimp.

So while not using a separate die to flare the mouth, it is done at the same stage as the powder is dispensed. Tis the Lee system.

[polyphemus]

several years ago that I encountered a bullet set back problem.

You ran into a setback issue several years ago,how did that happen?
Did you chamber some rounds and then measure COL?What made you thing the bullets were being pushed in?
Here's the thing,first of all .45 AUTO does not need to be crimped.This cartridge headspaces on the forward shoulder of the chamber and a crimp can negatively change the location of the stop.
Measure the flare diameter and if it is larger than the intended case diameter then you have to adjust your expander,
You should be able to chamber your rounds two or three times without any
noticeable setback otherwise you have to carefully examine your production cycles to determine where the problem is.

[William T. Watts]

I've had 45 years loading various rifles and pistols, I'm well aware the 45ACP round headspace on the case mouth, I know I shouldn't crimp any more than necessary for the round to chamber properly. For my pistol I found that measuring with a starrett mic across the case mouth after seating and crimping to .4695" my rounds chamber properly every time. I might add set back does not occur with W-W or F-C cases, only Remington cases are a problem. I have a number of Starrett tools I purchased while in gunsmithing school that I am quite fond of, the pistol I'm using is one I smithed 10 years ago.. To say with certainty if the set back occurred when chambering or the battering in the clip I do not know but where ever it occurred may not be important the fact it happened is. This only happens with R-P cases, this fact is important, they are thinner in the case walls, this is important, what I intend to do is use the suggestion that Brian put forward of seating the bullet without flaring the case mouth. I think it will work.. William

[William T. Watts]

FWIW I just finished loading several R-P cases and chambered them three times and set back did occur, the cases are just to thin.. Brians suggestion may work with W-W or Federal but didn't with Remington cases, I still think it is a suggestion that may have merit.. Obviously I did measure! William

[hdbiker]

After getting my .45ACP Springer,I too found RP cases to be thin walled.I can tell sizing a bunch of mixed brass the ones that are RP by the effort to size them.With a .470 crimp on a .452 bullet I have no problems.In theory the .45ACP should head space on the case mouth,but in reality I believe they head space on the extractor.I know several .45ACP shooters that use .45 brass as short as .880 and they run fine ...IMO hdbiker

[William T. Watts]

General I don't mic 45acp cases for length but I was curious after reading your post, W-W mic .885" -.890" R-P .893 + or - .001" Starline .893" were very uniform and the case I like to use if I can find them. To comment on the extractor it may be a factor holding a case as short as .880" off the chamber shoulder but I think it may be a stretch with a case as long as .890" or longer. The firing pin probably will still have sufficient protrusion & energy to fire a round as short as .880" even if the extractor isn't a factor, Non the less it has been interesting.. William

[pete2]

When I first started loading 45ACP I found that Rem cases were indeed thinner than most others, Fed was thicker. My solution for the Rem brass was to replace my Lee die with RCBS as the RCBS sizes to a smaller diameter that will hold the bullet tight enough to allow use of the Rem Case. Dillon dies also size enough to use the Rem brass.

[polyphemus]

In theory the .45ACP should head space on the case mouth,but in reality I believe they head space on the extractor.

.45 AUTO in M1911's headspaces by design and in practice on the case mouth.
Extractor headspacing is a symptom of a defect,either the chamber is too deep
or the cartridge case is too short.
Now back to the numbers,new, standard cartridges measure.470" at the web and .472" at the mouth,no crimp,the bullet is .452" per SAAMI.
Wall thickness of .010" provides enough pressure and friction to retain the bullet under normal use.Repeated chambering is not normal use,however for those who
make a habit out of of it or otherwise worry about their reloads' integrity there is
always the case cannelure solution.

[Ole 5 hole group]

Maybe try this - your expander/flare tube needs to be polished down, so only the bell touches the case mouth. Should provide the max case tension on your bullet.

I do this with all my expander plugs and have never had a problem with case tension - some cases may give a snake swallowing a mouse appearance but that is a good thing to my way of thinking.

[polyphemus]

some cases may give a snake swallowing a mouse appearance but that is a good thing to my way of thinking.

Good thinkin'

[44 AMP]

so, the complaint is what? you have to adjust your loading process to suit different components? (RP brass in this case?)

I don't feel your pain.

I've been loading .45ACP since the early 70s, I've loaded most common brands of cases, and never seen any setback on any rounds I've loaded. I've even seen 1980 vintage Federal 185gr JHP (factory load), that had been chambered so many times (by 2012) that the nickel plating had brass stripes showing through. Absolutely no setback.

Clearly, it can be done.

If you are getting setback, something isn't being done right.

Now WHAT needs to be done, with the components and tools you are using, I cannot answer from the internet. Sorry.

Several good suggestions have been made, one (or more) of them might be the ticket. Personally, the first thing I would look at is the expander plug.

And the depth you use.

Another thing I have found to be good is a properly applied taper crimp. But doing it right is the key. Doing it wrong is worse than not doing it at all.

good luck!

[RC20]

I would weight the RP cases on an electronic scale and see how much they weigh vs other 45 acp.

In 30-06 RP is second only to FC in weight and weights more than the military 30-6 I have weight so you have to wonder abut the wisdom of loading down military cases and full tilt is fine for all civilian cases (all the other civilian cases other than RP and FC I weighed were lower than HXP military)

This is worth reading I believe as it discuses the issue with head space

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=553763

As noted, I shot 2 rounds of 45 gap in a 45 acp and they fired fine, almost cycled the slide and no issues otherwise though not someting I would do deliberately (I got the wrong ammo and had no idea at the time there was 45 gap) .

Sierra goes with a firm tapered crimp on 9mm, other say none, some say light etc.

45 gap is way shorter than 45 acp.

Scovill does go onto say the 38 super is a special case but did not go into details (this is from memory I don't have the magazine I was reading it at the store).

In my spare times I am going to try to get a letter to him and see. Interesting in the same magazine they go onto say that headspace is on the case mouth (another writer) so it remains in contention and or un-clear at least in my mind with some evidence pointing to extractor head-space works or the dynamics are more complex.

[44 AMP]

While the cases are intended to headspace on the mouth, and they do when everything is in spec, shorter cases often fire fine just being held in place by the extractor.

Individual gun and case tolerances of course play the main part in this.

[cheezhed]

I find that the remington cases are my preferred cases for cast bullets. I shoot a lot of laser cast and they often mike between .4525 to .453 and the R-P cases work very well for this application.

[rebs]

I have 3 different brands of 45 acp fmj ammo. I checked the crimp on them and it is as follows
remington . 470 to .472
american eagle .473
pcm .472 - .473

this seems to tell me that .473 is good for most everything except remington
I don 't have any factory federal fmj to measure. Has anyone else measured federal factory fmj ?

[polyphemus]

I don 't have any factory federal fmj to measure. Has anyone else measured federal factory fmj ?

A:Yes,
They run pretty consistent at.4715" at the mouth and .4705" case OD.

[William T. Watts]

New Factory loaded W-W ammunition crimp at the case mouth measures .4696, .472" over the bullet, .468 midway between the bullet and the rim. I've found my handloads will feed 100 percent of the time with the crimp at the bullet/case mouth measures .4695 - .4700 , OAL using either W-W or Hornady 230gr RN bullets 1.260" has been the measurement I use in my loaded ammunition. W-W is the only factory loaded ammunition I will use.. I might add I use 5.1gr of W231 powder which is the only powder I've ever used in my handloaded ammunition for my 45ACP.. It took months to finally get my pistol to feed correctly, I finally ended up using measurements of Winchester factory ammunition except for OAL, my handloads are about .005- .008 shorter. When possible I use W-W cases W-W bullets and powder with either W-W or CCI primers which ever is available.. I believe a method like I use simplifies the loading of ammunition for a sometime finicky firearm!! William