Hunting ethics...changing with the times?

[Doug444]

Art,
Can I use that line in my next HE Class? That's a great one! I'm in the middle of one now, and if you don't mind, I'll use it frequently.

Great thread - lots of food for thought for my class.

Doug444

[Art Eatman]

The phrasing might well be "just Art's", but the concept has been around a long, long time. Always feel free to use any line I happen to pop off with, if it's of interest. Attribution on the order of, "An old hunter said..."

, Art

[Nannuk]

I thought I would add a few observations.
First, in Texas it is always a felony to trespass with a firearm. Doesn't always seem to help and a lot of people are very surprised to have their weapon confiscated and to not be allowed to legally own a firearm EVER again. Yet some slobs STILL risk it. If someone is so unconcerned about consequencees to risk losing their right to bear arms, they certainly wouldn't have any trouble with unethically hunting.

Second, just saw a large doe taken this weekend. 100-120 yard shot, 30-06 150gr. Good heart/lung shot. Knocked the doe back about three feet and splattered red stuff for about twenty feet back. This was a big doe (it took two of us to pull her up over a pulley) and we both thought that it was too much gun. Still can't imagine one of them big mags on a hill country deer.

BTW, the guy who shot this doe did it because he said she was old. I was skeptical of his claim that he could tell at first light at 100yds that this was an old doe. But when we got to her and checked her teeth she only had two front lower teeth left. I'll never doubt his call again. I find that to be highly ethical. He took the shot that most wouldn't (we have a high buck to doe ratio in our neck of the woods) and saved that doe from starving to death.

Nannuk

[Smokey Joe]

Boy, from all these replies it's clear that the inhabitants of TFL, at least, deplore the slob hunter and do what they can to eliminate him. In my state, the year we required all new licensees to pass a hunter safety course, the graph for hunting accidents fell off the table,so to speak. The course includes a section on ethics, also. I hope it helps. I think it does, but that's harder to demonstrate than the accident rate.

Depends on the instructor, I guess, and whether that's a state-certified instructor, Uncle, Grandpa, or your old man, doesn't matter. As the twig is bent...

Try to keep it positive when dealing with strangers you encounter in the field. If they're behaving like idiots they need to be told, but they have to be sold, not yelled at or scolded. (Obviously if they're drunk or dangerously trespassing, etc, you can't use a light hand, but you won't make any friends, either. That's a no-win situation.)

We who love hunting and the outdoor life will only keep it by generously sharing it at every opportunity. That bore-sighted slob hunter just might turn into a decent stalker and tracker someday, but only if someoneÑyou, maybe?Ñmakes the effort to show him what he's missing.

And help the guys at the rangeÑThey're generally grateful for helpful advice, respectfully and knowledgeably given.

[Art Eatman]

Rotten apples and barrels. I imagine that the vast majority of all hunters deplore the slobs. Problem is, a few slobs go a long way...

I think one facet of the problem is ignorance. Just as a lot of folks, today, weren't raised to understand courtesy and politeness, so are many unaware of hunting ethics.

Yesterday, Rush Limbaugh was commenting about some guy who's making a ton of money teaching NFL draftees how to dress and act at business interviews with team officials. His question--and mine--is, "How is it they don't know how to dress or act?" Where were their parents? Why did this never enter their conciousness in elementary school?

Art

[416Rigby]

This topic reminds me a lot of the phrase:

"You don't see anymore the same four seasons we used to have in the good old days"....

And as in the case of this saying, there is a lot of truth in it - or is there?

Instinctively, I would have to agree that yes, today's hunting ethics would have to be slipping down, along the same slope as our morals as a society.
But when I really think about it, I also know that today there is quite a bit more of a conscious effort by "good" hunters to conserve wild habitats, to manage game more efficiently and to pick cartridges that are suitable for the quarry.

So, to me, the question is: is the "conscious effort" made by good hunters enough to offset the sloppier behavior of some?

===

As a hunter (or a living human being, for that matter) I haven't been around long enough to have witnessed any trends first-hand. The "good old days" that I can remember as a budding hunter are not any further away than a quarter century. So I'll defer to men of better vintage than me (such as Art ) to answer the question of whether times have indeed deteriorated.

As a devotee of early 20-C. hunting literature, I can't help but notice that the writers and sportsmen of yore had no compunction about letting us know about behaviors that our writers today would definitely be ashamed of admitting.

This includes losing game, firing wildly with open-sighted rifles at game several hundred yards off (read Roosevelt's African Game Trails!), using inadequately-light rifles against large game, killing large quantities of one species regardless of rarity, etc.

Also, today our youth is initiated to hunting through formal classes designed to instill ethics and safety in the new generations. This standardized training was not in place until a few years ago, and back then we had to rely on the spirit of sportsmanship of the individual "mentors". I see this too as a step in the right direction.

All in all, I think that the collective conscience of "real" hunters is better today than it ever was. Sloppy behavior enrages me, but at least I am happy to see that the sane side of conservationism has gone a long way to ensure that the environment in which we hunt will be there 50 years from now.

[Greybeard]

Nannuk -

"First, in Texas it is always a felony to trespass with a firearm."

PMed ya about this one yesterday, friend, and have not heard back from, so gonna go ahead and comment here.

Criminal trespass in Texas is a Class B misdeameanor. When a firearm is present, it can kick it up to a Class A. Some other circumstances might generate a felony charge, but not simply what ya stated above. Either a Class A or B misdeameanor though can make it a very long wait for anyone wanting to get a Texas CHL ... If a felony anytime, anywhere, forget it.

[Art Eatman]

Up until the very early 1900s, in many areas game was regaded as limitless. (Resembles the view of the oceans, until the 1960s/1970s.) Market shooting in Chesapeake Bay, for instance, with monster-sized shotguns, with the ducks and geese sold to hotels. Same for Passenger Pigeons, with nets and sticks used at night to harvest. Or the official U.S. Government policy against the bison.

At any rate, the average person doesn't pay much attention to conserving that which appears limitless. Sort of like payday party-people: "My round; I got plenty money!"

"Suddenly" there were few deer or wild turkey. Hunters were the first to call for limits and seasons. Then, such things as the Dingell/Johnson and Pittman/Robinson taxes on sporting equipment to fund wildlife study/restoration efforts. We've had the rise of such as Ducks Unlimited.

While there have always been "fair chase" folks around, the idea became stronger with the efforts at restoration of game species. It became codified into law or regulation, including "don't hunt from a vehicle", etc.

The wheel turns. In many areas deer are regarded as rats with hooves. Too many geese...Not everywhere, of course, but some places.

But there have been rational, credible studies of people's behavior around the U.S., and there appears to be a lessening of ethics and politeness/courtesy. I note that in general it is mostly within the larger cities; IMO it's tied to the frustrations of modern life and the hassles of dealing with large crowds.

Art

[Nannuk]

Greybeard--Sorry, I was out of town for a few days. Just got your PM today.
I did error in my statement. Trespassing with a firearm is an automatic Class A. Poaching on the other hand is a felony. Not sure if that applies to "attempted" poaching (ie not actually having felled anything, but tresspassing with intent to poach). Texas land owners pushed for the law about a dozen years ago thinking that it would cut down on tresspassers. Did not have desired effect. Another instance of only the lawful follow laws.

Oncec again, sorry for the misstatement.

Nannuk

[nygunguy]

The hunting shows are the worst. I recently watched one where bow hunters were hunting over a tripod feeder. The deer were milling around like cattle. I was throughly disgusted.

The folks who use the long range rifles also get me. They may be great shots, but taking a deer or whatever at 300 yards ain't huntin' to me.

We're restricted to using shotguns (for deer) here in NYS. I often see the guys with the semiautos shoot at a deer 5 times. The first one goes "sort of" toward the deer the next 4 are up in the air. They are so worried about the second thru fifth shots that they forget about the first. The philosophy seems to be "empty the gun".

The sportsman's challenge - 1 shot 1 kill.

[Toren]

I'm sorry to say I saw a lot of this behaviour 25 years ago in Alberta, so maybe not as much has changed as we fear.
Best cure even then was to get wayyyy out there, as in drive a couple days away from any kind of city, then hike in a good bit. There you would find peace and quiet and good hunting.
Then, as now, "The Slobs" aren't too big on hiking.

[priv8ter]

I agree with everyone else, this is a great post, as far as it helps to get this stuff off our chest. But, it is also turning into a depressing thread.

A few years ago, Washington shifted from a Hunters Safety Class, to a Hunters Education Class, that my wife just attended. One whole three hour class went to discuss ethics. Things like...would you take a shot the last day of the season that you wouldn't take at the beggining of the season. The only thing my wife came home saying that I didn't agree with was that the instructors were putting out that Coyote hunting is Unethical, because you most people aren't going to eat them. I'm not sure I agree with that.


It's gotten so that opening day of Elk season around here sounds like WWIII. And, more than once, after missing, I have heard with my own ears: 'Well, I thought I saw something'


It's one reason my buddy shifted to muzzle loader season.

Toren does have a point. I work with some folks who probably fit into the 'Slob Hunter' catagory. The kind that stop hunting to shoot at street signs with their pistols, and if there is an Elk more than 100 yards off a road, it is safe from them...

And, like BlueRidgeDave said, lack of access just makes it worse for those of us that consider ourselves 'good' hunters. It's one reason I'm starting to look for land for sale in Eastern Washington.

So...now that we all agree a problem exists...what is there we can do about it?

greg

[myopicmouse]

when shooting small game I always aim for the head, if I screw up on the wind then the shot will either be a clean kill or a clean miss, yea it's a very small target to hit (especially bird heads....the size of peas) but hey, I'm just that good

I saw on TV these two guys hunted together, and when there was something to shoot they'd go 1-2-3 and both shoot at the same time to hit the animal with two bullets - naturally that cause bad shooting, and snatching at triggers....that annoyed me somewhat, it give hunting a bad name if these fagmos act like that.

[Mannlicher]

Ankeny,

My thoughts are that a lot of hunters nowdays,don't know how to hunt. While the magazines and BBS are full of technical info on loads, rifles, bullets, there is virtually nothing out there on woodscraft, or tactics.
The preponderance of the type of information available often gives a clue to what folks are interested in. The way I look at it, all the emphasis is on equipment now, not ability to spot game, track game, or cleanly kill game. Most of the guys you talk to have no clue at all as to Whitetail anatomy, or how to clean one. Sad.

[Paul B.]

Guess I'll jump in with a few of my horror stories. First though, let me state that I am an Arizona game and Fish certified Hunter Education, ceritfied bowhunter, and muzzlerloader instructor as well. Most fun I've ever had teaching those kids and adults that come the right and safe way to do things.
Anyway, three years ago on a cow elk hunt, I spot a herd working it's way up into a stand of trees. Well, the wind is right, they don't knoe I'm around so I start my stalk. All of a sudden, four slobs on ATVs go roaring past me at full throttle headed for the elk. After what sounds like a small short gun battle, they come out with three cow elk. As they pass my wife and I, the look at us and smirk. I swear. I was never so tempted to shoot three people in my life. Now this is the good part of all this. The next day, I do a stalk and am able to shoot my cow elk. I tagged the animal and hustled back to my truck to get my wife to help me gut and quarter the animal. We get back to where my tagged elk was, and there is a gut pile, my tag torn into shreds on the ground and two thieves on ATVs heading off into the distance. On the back of their machines was each half of my elk. God was on their side as they were well out of range. I spent the rest of that day trying to contact the game warden to report the theft and try to be reissued a new tag. The next morning, we said to hell with it as it was the last day, no tag, so we packed up and went home.
Needless to say, I have bad feelings about the use of ATVs.
Paul B.

[Arizona Fusilier]

Man, Paul, I never would've dreamed anyone could be that desperate, stealing from an (obviously) armed man out in the middle of nowhere!

Whereabouts was this; I've got a cow elk hint this fall!

[4 Wheel Drive]

I never thought I would lease hunt, but I tell you now that I might never do it any other way. Keeps the slobs away, and the property owner just happens to be a correctional officer at the state pen in Colorado City, so I don't think there will be issues in getting a response if I see trespassers and such

I miss my old lease in the Hill country, but there were a couple of idiots who were cutting fences, shooting over fences onto the neighbor's property, and a few were starting to bring alchohol. Outta there. I'm no teetotaller, but beer is for the house in my domain, long after the weapons are cleaned up and put away.

[Fred Hansen]

I am sorry to vent and I don't mean to create a storm, but why is this stuff being portrayed as normal and appropriate on television. Am I way off base here or what?

No need to be sorry, and no you aren't off base.

All I can say is that each of us who love hunting really need to figure out what we can do to save it, and the RKBA. No, the RKBA ain't about hunting. We all know that. But a lot of people get negative exposure to firearms through the kind of BS TV programs you are talking about, not to mention nimrod blasting one of their cows or some other such nonsense.

Here's what a bunch of us at our local sportsmen's club do.

We have three Hunter Safety Instructors.

We give classes in the spring so we can at least encourage our students to practice what they learn before hunting season. We live on an island, so most students have to take it in the spring, or they probably won't get their license. Too hard to go elsewhere for the last minute before season classes.

We are working very hard to update/augment the Hunter Ed. materials. With all of the Pittman-Robertson money the gubmint collects, one would think that the instruction videos could have production dates post 1978. Today's kids are extremely visually oriented. Giving them a movie to watch that was made in the late 1960s doesn't get it done!

We offer NRA rifle/pistol/shotgun/home firearms safety/personal protection/range safety courses. We're working on blackpowder and reloading courses. More knowledge is better. They become better people for having become less ignorant of firearms.

We offer a Kid's NRA Shooting Sports day-camp. The more the kids shoot, the better for us as a society. They learn respect, discipline, sportsmanship.

When a controversy involving firearms comes up locally, we make sure to write letters to the editor explaining that we, as RKBA advocates are appalled, and we go on to explain those things we make available to prevent the problem in the future. People respond very positively to this. Complaining is right and necessary, but doing something is what makes the change.

We try to pick out new people to take hunting with us, so that we can try to instill the spirit of the hunt into newbies.

I could go on, but everyone gets the drift. Do what you can, when you can.

Some people have accused me in the past of too much altruism. They should hear my intro to my classes where I tell my students that my #1 reason for teaching the class is that I'm not bullet-proof, and I love to hunt, and I'm going to make sure that at least they are going to come out of this class knowing how to do it right, or they are going to fail. No in between!

Good hunting.

[Fred Hansen]

I'd like to add our club's website for folks to look at/critique/etc.

If you have any questions about what we all can do to stop dangerous or unethical hunting and/or screwy firearms usage, feel free to PM, e-mail, or even call me (my number is on the website).

We are succeeding in repealing bad gun laws, we are succeeding in obtaining "shall issue CCW", let's keep up the momentum.


www.vashonsportsmensclub.com

[dfaugh]

Around here we have to use shotguns...Which as far as I'm concerned means my shots are very limited...Like MAX 50 yards at a motionless deer..because I want it to DROP, or at worst travel a short distance. Shots like that are few and far between, but when I used to hunt I had several easy shots at 150-200 yards. Most of the yahoos around here would've taken those shots (and probably wounded the deer, if they hit it at all). The gun just stayed on my lap where it belonged.

I have a friend that has some land nearby, and has a flock of 20 or so semi-tame deer that come into her yard almost every day (she feeds them). After last hunting season she saw one of the bucks (who tend to be spookier, don't come into the yard as much) with no less than 6 (yes, SIX) obvious wounds on him, none serious.

I used to work with a guy that bragged that when he went out he would "empty the gun at anything that moves". Unfortunately, there's more like him out there than there are like me out there.

[nygunguy]

I'm also in Upstate NY and have rarely used my shotgun in the past few years. I use a bow, muzzleloader and .44MAG. The bow and .44 are inside 50 yard weapons but the muzzleloader is a 200 yard gun. If you want the long shots try a ML.

My shotgun is very good out to 150 yards. It's a Winchester 1300 with full rifling and a 4x scope. I shoot 2-3/4" Federal Classis Sabots withthe Barnes Expander slugs. My nephew typically uses this gun; he gets 3 rounds and a lecture about that being all the ammo he gets for the day.

I too have a problem with some of the Upstate Hunters. I would never suggest banning semi-autos but many of these folks are more worried about the second and third shots than with getting a good first shot off. I'd almost guess that that deer with all the wounds got them in the same hunter encounter.

[griz]

Besides the hunting TV shows themselves the commercials are bad. One showed a hunter shooting an out of the box muzzleloader and of course he hit dead center on the first shot. They claimed that all their guns were sighted like that. And people BELIEVE them!

In a gun magazine (a commercial of sorts) a few years ago the writer tested a handful of factory rifles for long range hunting. One of them averaged something like 14 inches at 400 yards with the BEST of the loads! The writer went on to excuse this and said that all were good enough for long range deer hunting! Again imagine someone who has never tried it when he reads that. He isn't thinking that his unsupported shot, with a pounding heart and gasping lungs, will be several times worse than that benchrested group, yet he will try it, and wonder what went wrong.

I like the comments about the "empty the gun hunters". Although I don't think we should or would enact shuch a law, I believe requireing hunters to use single shots would actually increase the odds of them getting a deer.

Finally I'll close with some good news. I see an increase in hunters picking their shots, passing on little bucks, favoring bow season, and generally trending away from bad behavour. I think a lot of this is from the increase in deer populations and our correspondingly bigger bag limits. Access si still a problem (we may lose our lease this year) and there still is the "shoot everything" crowd out there, but it's encouraging to hear someone explain the idea of shooting that little buck next year to them, and they are listining.

[OutAtTheEdge]

...are taking over the world. Yesterday, for example, a guy approaches the gun counter and proclaims he needs a rifle scope and a box of ammo. Okay. In the following 30 minutes or so, I saw this dude demonstrate an uncanny level of stupidity, ignorance, arrogance, and misinformation. In preparation for an imminent elk hunt, this yahoo had purchased his first-ever rifle, a Weatherby Mk V in .30-378, just two weeks ago. With his departure date fast approaching, he figured it was time to get a scope mounted and sight it in. Obviously quite proud of his nothing-but-the-best-for-me elk blaster, he confidently told me that he wanted a premium-quality scope with at least 16x top end magnification, to take full advantage of the rifle's long-range performance capabilities. This yutz proclaimed that he had researched rifles and cartridges thoroughly, so he was totally confident that, with a big enough scope, the gun would perform easily out to at least 600 yards. I made a few subtle attempts to get this guy to rethink...well, pretty much his every notion about everything, but he knew for a fact he had selected and paid dearly for the very best, and wasn't about to give credence to some less-informed salesman's obsolete ideas. Once he had his Mt. Palomar riflescope selected, he ordered up a "box of shells". When I inquired if he had a particular bullet preference, he looked at me like I hadn't been listening, and said, "Yeah. .30-378 Weatherby, remember?" Uh-huh. Just one box, sir? Oh, sure. Shouldn't take more than a few rounds to sight-in, leaving plenty for the elk hunt.

Company policy forbids taking a customer out back and kicking some common sense into him, unfortunately. On the positive side, though, I think it's highly unlikely that this moron poses any serious threat to the wildlife. And to be fair, I suppose this d*ckhead isn't totally responsible his massive ignorance. Some of that has to go to the gunzine writers and Outdoor Network producers who keep promoting high-testosterone gear, pumping up the advertising income with rave gun reviews focused on high velocities and tiny benchrest groups. Just once I'd like to read a story that instructs hunters buy at least 100-200 rounds of ammo, sight their new rifle in, then walk away from the bench and practice under field conditions regularly for a couple months before hunting.

About 90% of the customers buying scopes for their deer shotguns seem to feel they need 3-9 power variables, 'cause these new slug guns are accurate out past 100 yards. Huh...

Over-powered rifles and optics, under-powered shooting ability and hunting prowess, and a misplaced confidence in the one to compensate for the other. How do we fix this? I'm...

OutAtTheEdge