SHTF Threads

cloud8a · May 5, 2011, 01:39 AM

I have not been here very long, but one of the things I have always enjoyed is reading locked threads. Tactics and Training gets a good amount of them. I see many are SHTF threads. I can understand why these scenarios get shut down on Tactics and Training and more so on the others, they lend to an out of control discussions that are sometimes opposite of educational.

But SHTF continues to come up. It must be the child part of the Boyscout in us all. After the days duties are done, and camp is set, the fire is raging, it's almost time to hit the sack, let us talk about what we are to do when the zombies attack.

There are no zombies, BUT the S can HTF can't it? In a real way right?
If SHTF would we be able to remember anything we read here? Contacts we made? Stories? techniques? Means of survival? All these things related to the fire arms we carry for mini SHTF's, like a carjacking or home invasion.

My question is, can we have a SHTF section that could be moderated for at the very least reality? Or has this been tried already and found impossible? Would it be to difficult to moderate cause every thread always has the potential to descend into madness?

Guthepenguin · May 5, 2011, 02:09 AM

I'll second this. I started an SHTF thread at TeamZX2.com (car forum) and we've been able to keep it on topic. S can HTF in more ways than just Zombie overrun. Earthquake, hurricane, economic collapse. These are only a few examples, but each one in severity almost certainly leads to conditions that require preparation and planning, which i believe is what SHTF is really about. SHTF isn't global; it can be localized well (i.e. Hurricane Katrina).

BlueTrain · May 5, 2011, 05:31 AM

Things don't always work out the way they do in the movies. When the airplanes hit the towers on 9/11, people didn't literally head for the hills but rather, people went to New York to work. There was a lot of work to be done all of a sudden. But it didn't work that way in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, did it? Some people in New York, on the other hand, discovered they really had no useful skills either. What are you good at doing?

I suppose it rather depends on how you see an event in the first place, although I can't imagine anyone seeing a hurricane as anything but a bad storm or 9/11 as an act of terrorism. Countries are invaded every now and then but some people see the invaders (there is no other word) as liberators, as they sometimes are. One person's patriot is another persons rebel.

mrbro · May 5, 2011, 06:12 AM

I think there is already a place for that. Zombie Squad, zombiehunters.org, is all about disaster preparedness and community service for SHTF scenarios.

While these kinds of threads can be entertaining, I do wonder if people are using the gunsafe and keyboard as this generations backyard bomb shelter.

Instead of the "Red Scare" we have the "Undead Scare".

tirod · May 5, 2011, 06:13 AM

The difficulty with the subject of the thread is that it is so unlikely in our daily life. For the long run in history, examples abound - each and every one unique.

Just the subject of using commercial grade doors on residential construction is difficult - because so few understand the actual use, Code, and why it's likely better to just move if things are that bad. The intimate details of how to specify a heavy duty door usually lose perspective when it's discovered there are three large glass patio doors and two garage doors leading directly into the living space. That's exactly the kind of myopia necessary to support a lot of these threads - they are too narrowly focused.

Power out, major damage in the neighborhood, cutting your way to the pavement through downed trees? The reality is you need a chain saw, NOT a Scattergun 870. No heat, ice covering most of the environment? How about firing up that Coleman propane stove for supper, rather than agonizing over which caliber is less penetrative when a gang of thugs comes by to kill all of you?

Point being, it's a gun forum, and common sense thinking is thrown out the window when emotional wordplay is really the game. Nobody cares to hear about using your solar LED yard lights indoors at night for a bathroom night light. What they do want to talk about is 1) you better have a 250 lumen battlelight 2) your tactical sling will save your life 3) how many layers of sheetrock the round will penetrate. Well, just where do you mount the light and sling on your 1gen Glock 19C?

It's technical one upmanship, can I prove I'm smarter than you, chest beating posting. If the propane Coleman stove and yard light stuff sounded stupid, consider why the other perspective gets threads locked. REAL disasters involve water, food, keeping warm, and personal hygiene. Ask the folks in Japan or Alabama. I don't hear stories of gang bangers running amok terrorizing their neighbors - everybody is suffering together. That's what usually happens, and reflects the real human spirit.

We just happen to get the least mature and irresponsible on gun forums, part and parcel of their attraction to an unempowered, helpless mindset.

sserdlihc · May 5, 2011, 06:20 AM

Yep, this one will get closed soon. This is a dictatorship not a democracy.

WeedWacker · May 5, 2011, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Yep, this one will get closed soon.

IBTL!!!!

But as a helpful poster I am, go over to http://www.survivalistboards.com as they welcome SHTF topics and occasionally have rational conversations that don't break down into complete silliness and tinfoil hattery.

Adamantium · May 5, 2011, 06:32 AM

Excellent post tirod.

Most multi-page threads on here that get locked usually have one thing in common. There are 1 or 2 individuals who continue to say the same idea over and over again debating everyone who would view things differently. Those are the people who take a 20 post on-topic thread and turn it into a 200 post point/counter point argument.

Perhaps a change in the rules would be more useful than constantly having to lock threads because of this. For example another forum I post on a big rule there is no posting in a thread just to say you don't see the point of the thread. It's a cause vs effect thing in my mind.

C0untZer0 · May 5, 2011, 07:31 AM

I like the solar yard light example.

In December 1999 all the "world is going to end" talk got to my wife. She said "Maybe we should stock up on bottled water, even though it's so expensive now."

I said "If you really think we're going to need water, fill the bathtub all the way up. We'll have enough cooking and drinking water for a week, and it costs something like 1¢ per gallon."

It amazes me that people don't think of the simple solutions.

Now what really gets expensive is stocking up on Holy Water when faced with Vampire-apocolypse!

(Don't always assume it's just gonna be zombies)

Does anyone know if Winchester Silvertips are effective against Werewolves?

BlueTrain · May 5, 2011, 08:20 AM

Another way to look at the subject is to try to think of the worst thing that has happened within, say 50 miles of where you live. As it happens, I live that close to the Pentagon. But lots more people live close to the Mississippi River, which has a bad habit of overflowing its banks every few years, somewhere up and down the river from Lake Itasca to the Gulf. It always has.

Around where I live, we have the occasional tree blow down, which is a terrible thing if it lands on the wrong thing, and every few winters an unusually heavy snow. There was a bad riot not far away about 43 years ago and some serious unrest when the bonus marchers came to town in the 1930s (MacArthur and his tanks took care of them), but lately things have been pretty peaceful. The electricity goes off surprisingly often, though, and I've been meaning to get some wind-up clocks.

sirsloop · May 5, 2011, 08:30 AM

I need to stock up on more Czech silver tip 7.62x54r

jimbob86 · May 5, 2011, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Another way to look at the subject is to try to think of the worst thing that has happened within, say 50 miles of where you live.

You missed that whole 4 year furball that killed more Americans than any other, back in the early 1860's ....... that started off in your neighborhood.

Guthepenguin · May 5, 2011, 08:51 AM

In light of tirod's comment, it seems that the ability to have a legit SHTF thread full of useful information is based on the egos/personalities/knowledge of the members of the forum in which the thread is placed. I'm just a little surprised that we were able to pull it off at a car forum of all places. I figured gun guys would better understand the need for preparedness, and that it involves a lot more than just calibers and arsenals.

BTW, two things. First, just because something isn't likely to occur daily doesn't mean that it isn't important. And second, SHTF is a localized experience. Sure, a devastating hurricane may not be SHTF to an outsider, but if you happen to lose everything to a storm, then your S has hit the F.

**OldMarksman** · May 5, 2011, 09:00 AM

TFL is "a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership".

If anyone believes for a moment that nuances concerning the selection of firearms and ammunition will play a really central role in assuring survival in the event of a major natural disaster, or a man made disaster, or a major societal breakdown, he or she has not put much thought into the subject.

Depending upon the nature of the event, priorities may include water, food, medicine, fuels, electrical energy, communication, money, shelter, flotation devices, transportation, and so on.

Far too broad a spectrum for TFL, in my opinion, and not really central to the purpose of the forum.

Seaman · May 5, 2011, 09:08 AM

"The reality is you need a chain saw, NOT a Scattergun 870. No heat, ice covering most of the environment? How about firing up that Coleman propane stove for supper, rather than agonizing over which caliber is less penetrative when a gang of thugs comes by to kill all of you?"

The reality is that this is 'The Firing Line." That's what is discussed here... Certainly chainsaws and Coleman stoves are important. I cut, split, and transport all my firewood, and I've been known to use a Coleman stove too. Please note the following:

"Tactics and Training Forum
When your best defense is a quick, hard offense, the lessons learned here may prove invaluable. This is a "no holds barred" training area."

This is why I come to this forum...bring on the zombies (perps)...for I value the advice passed on by the many M&P and other experienced folk who contribute. Would I drive a car without insurance? of course not. Likewise I carry...for should I be caught in a Luby's Cafeteria scenario, I am (hopefully) well enough prepared to survive the emergency.

As for the chainsaws and Coleman lamps, there are plenty of other forums out there for that.

chadstrickland · May 5, 2011, 09:18 AM

I also enjoy reading locked threads..but the difference I have noticed about the firing line and other threads is that this is supposed to be a step above the rest and has alot of extremely valuable knowledge and knowledgeable people roam around here that you simply don't find on other forums..however if they did start a shtf thing then we would have to be serious about our post and it would be extremely difficult to keep from posting silly things..as I am very guilty myself of doing as I am a very humorous person and enjoy a good joke....and I have found myself.."being slapped by a wet noodle" by one of the staff guys for skirts mods ( bad language )...it was a accident..but those guys would catch some serious flack and work overtime to control that forum..so I wont hold it against them in the slightest if they choose not to do this...another thought..a poll would be nice to...how do you say..take this forums temperature at the idea of a shtf forum and see how the members would act and if they could keep the reputation this place has acquired as being one of the best...

mnero · May 5, 2011, 09:35 AM

Well at least I know what the mod meant by Shtf LOL, but why start a thread you know they will close. Mods' got enough to worry about

pax · May 5, 2011, 09:46 AM

Guys, there are thousands of sites all over the internet that allow & even encourage SHTF threads.

TFL doesn't happen to be one of those places. Get over it. Seriously. It's not a big deal & there are lots of places where you have an outlet for that type of post if that's your thing.

Meanwhile, if you want to discuss firearms training and tactics in a realistic way, this is the place.

pax

Al Norris · May 5, 2011, 10:14 AM

Just to add to Pax's closing remarks, think hard on what OldMarksman had to say, a few posts back. He really hit the nail on the head with it:

Quote:

TFL is "a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership".

If anyone believes for a moment that nuances concerning the selection of firearms and ammunition will play a really central role in assuring survival in the event of a major natural disaster, or a man made disaster, or a major societal breakdown, he or she has not put much thought into the subject.

Depending upon the nature of the event, priorities may include water, food, medicine, fuels, electrical energy, communication, money, shelter, flotation devices, transportation, and so on.

Far too broad a spectrum for TFL, in my opinion, and not really central to the purpose of the forum.

And finally, all SHTF scenarios are by their very nature, survivalist scenarios. That doesn't describe TFL, now does it?

May 5, 2011, 01:39 AM	#1
cloud8a Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 399	SHTF Threads I have not been here very long, but one of the things I have always enjoyed is reading locked threads. Tactics and Training gets a good amount of them. I see many are SHTF threads. I can understand why these scenarios get shut down on Tactics and Training and more so on the others, they lend to an out of control discussions that are sometimes opposite of educational. But SHTF continues to come up. It must be the child part of the Boyscout in us all. After the days duties are done, and camp is set, the fire is raging, it's almost time to hit the sack, let us talk about what we are to do when the zombies attack. There are no zombies, BUT the S can HTF can't it? In a real way right? If SHTF would we be able to remember anything we read here? Contacts we made? Stories? techniques? Means of survival? All these things related to the fire arms we carry for mini SHTF's, like a carjacking or home invasion. My question is, can we have a SHTF section that could be moderated for at the very least reality? Or has this been tried already and found impossible? Would it be to difficult to moderate cause every thread always has the potential to descend into madness?

May 5, 2011, 05:31 AM	#3
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Things don't always work out the way they do in the movies. When the airplanes hit the towers on 9/11, people didn't literally head for the hills but rather, people went to New York to work. There was a lot of work to be done all of a sudden. But it didn't work that way in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, did it? Some people in New York, on the other hand, discovered they really had no useful skills either. What are you good at doing? I suppose it rather depends on how you see an event in the first place, although I can't imagine anyone seeing a hurricane as anything but a bad storm or 9/11 as an act of terrorism. Countries are invaded every now and then but some people see the invaders (there is no other word) as liberators, as they sometimes are. One person's patriot is another persons rebel. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

May 5, 2011, 06:20 AM	#6
sserdlihc Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2008 Location: S.C. Posts: 1,454	Yep, this one will get closed soon. This is a dictatorship not a democracy. __________________ Familiarity breeds contempt, while rarity wins admiration. Aupleius If someone doesn't like you, that's their problem! Milton Childress

May 5, 2011, 08:20 AM	#10
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Another way to look at the subject is to try to think of the worst thing that has happened within, say 50 miles of where you live. As it happens, I live that close to the Pentagon. But lots more people live close to the Mississippi River, which has a bad habit of overflowing its banks every few years, somewhere up and down the river from Lake Itasca to the Gulf. It always has. Around where I live, we have the occasional tree blow down, which is a terrible thing if it lands on the wrong thing, and every few winters an unusually heavy snow. There was a bad riot not far away about 43 years ago and some serious unrest when the bonus marchers came to town in the 1930s (MacArthur and his tanks took care of them), but lately things have been pretty peaceful. The electricity goes off surprisingly often, though, and I've been meaning to get some wind-up clocks. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

May 5, 2011, 09:08 AM	#15
Seaman Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Posts: 654	"The reality is you need a chain saw, NOT a Scattergun 870. No heat, ice covering most of the environment? How about firing up that Coleman propane stove for supper, rather than agonizing over which caliber is less penetrative when a gang of thugs comes by to kill all of you?" The reality is that this is 'The Firing Line." That's what is discussed here... Certainly chainsaws and Coleman stoves are important. I cut, split, and transport all my firewood, and I've been known to use a Coleman stove too. Please note the following: "Tactics and Training Forum When your best defense is a quick, hard offense, the lessons learned here may prove invaluable. This is a "no holds barred" training area." This is why I come to this forum...bring on the zombies (perps)...for I value the advice passed on by the many M&P and other experienced folk who contribute. Would I drive a car without insurance? of course not. Likewise I carry...for should I be caught in a Luby's Cafeteria scenario, I am (hopefully) well enough prepared to survive the emergency. As for the chainsaws and Coleman lamps, there are plenty of other forums out there for that. __________________ For 20 years the sea was my home, always recall the sun going down, and my trusty friend, a 1911 pistol, strapped to my side.

May 5, 2011, 02:09 AM	#2
Guthepenguin Junior Member Join Date: January 9, 2011 Location: Utah Posts: 6	I'll second this. I started an SHTF thread at TeamZX2.com (car forum) and we've been able to keep it on topic. S can HTF in more ways than just Zombie overrun. Earthquake, hurricane, economic collapse. These are only a few examples, but each one in severity almost certainly leads to conditions that require preparation and planning, which i believe is what SHTF is really about. SHTF isn't global; it can be localized well (i.e. Hurricane Katrina).

May 5, 2011, 06:12 AM	#4
mrbro member Join Date: September 14, 2008 Posts: 195	I think there is already a place for that. Zombie Squad, zombiehunters.org, is all about disaster preparedness and community service for SHTF scenarios. While these kinds of threads can be entertaining, I do wonder if people are using the gunsafe and keyboard as this generations backyard bomb shelter. Instead of the "Red Scare" we have the "Undead Scare".

May 5, 2011, 06:13 AM	#5
tirod Junior member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Posts: 1,672	The difficulty with the subject of the thread is that it is so unlikely in our daily life. For the long run in history, examples abound - each and every one unique. Just the subject of using commercial grade doors on residential construction is difficult - because so few understand the actual use, Code, and why it's likely better to just move if things are that bad. The intimate details of how to specify a heavy duty door usually lose perspective when it's discovered there are three large glass patio doors and two garage doors leading directly into the living space. That's exactly the kind of myopia necessary to support a lot of these threads - they are too narrowly focused. Power out, major damage in the neighborhood, cutting your way to the pavement through downed trees? The reality is you need a chain saw, NOT a Scattergun 870. No heat, ice covering most of the environment? How about firing up that Coleman propane stove for supper, rather than agonizing over which caliber is less penetrative when a gang of thugs comes by to kill all of you? Point being, it's a gun forum, and common sense thinking is thrown out the window when emotional wordplay is really the game. Nobody cares to hear about using your solar LED yard lights indoors at night for a bathroom night light. What they do want to talk about is 1) you better have a 250 lumen battlelight 2) your tactical sling will save your life 3) how many layers of sheetrock the round will penetrate. Well, just where do you mount the light and sling on your 1gen Glock 19C? It's technical one upmanship, can I prove I'm smarter than you, chest beating posting. If the propane Coleman stove and yard light stuff sounded stupid, consider why the other perspective gets threads locked. REAL disasters involve water, food, keeping warm, and personal hygiene. Ask the folks in Japan or Alabama. I don't hear stories of gang bangers running amok terrorizing their neighbors - everybody is suffering together. That's what usually happens, and reflects the real human spirit. We just happen to get the least mature and irresponsible on gun forums, part and parcel of their attraction to an unempowered, helpless mindset.

May 5, 2011, 06:32 AM	#8
Adamantium Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 1999 Location: El Paso, TX Posts: 1,021	Excellent post tirod. Most multi-page threads on here that get locked usually have one thing in common. There are 1 or 2 individuals who continue to say the same idea over and over again debating everyone who would view things differently. Those are the people who take a 20 post on-topic thread and turn it into a 200 post point/counter point argument. Perhaps a change in the rules would be more useful than constantly having to lock threads because of this. For example another forum I post on a big rule there is no posting in a thread just to say you don't see the point of the thread. It's a cause vs effect thing in my mind.

May 5, 2011, 07:31 AM	#9
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I like the solar yard light example. In December 1999 all the "world is going to end" talk got to my wife. She said "Maybe we should stock up on bottled water, even though it's so expensive now." I said "If you really think we're going to need water, fill the bathtub all the way up. We'll have enough cooking and drinking water for a week, and it costs something like 1¢ per gallon." It amazes me that people don't think of the simple solutions. Now what really gets expensive is stocking up on *Holy Water* when faced with Vampire-apocolypse! (Don't always assume it's just gonna be zombies) Does anyone know if Winchester Silvertips are effective against Werewolves?

May 5, 2011, 08:30 AM	#11
sirsloop Junior member Join Date: January 13, 2011 Posts: 376	I need to stock up on more Czech silver tip 7.62x54r

May 5, 2011, 08:51 AM	#13
Guthepenguin Junior Member Join Date: January 9, 2011 Location: Utah Posts: 6	In light of tirod's comment, it seems that the ability to have a legit SHTF thread full of useful information is based on the egos/personalities/knowledge of the members of the forum in which the thread is placed. I'm just a little surprised that we were able to pull it off at a car forum of all places. I figured gun guys would better understand the need for preparedness, and that it involves a lot more than just calibers and arsenals. BTW, two things. First, just because something isn't likely to occur daily doesn't mean that it isn't important. And second, SHTF is a localized experience. Sure, a devastating hurricane may not be SHTF to an outsider, but if you happen to lose everything to a storm, then your S has hit the F.

May 5, 2011, 09:00 AM	#14
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	TFL is "a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership". If anyone believes for a moment that nuances concerning the selection of firearms and ammunition will play a really central role in assuring survival in the event of a major natural disaster, or a man made disaster, or a major societal breakdown, he or she has not put much thought into the subject. Depending upon the nature of the event, priorities may include water, food, medicine, fuels, electrical energy, communication, money, shelter, flotation devices, transportation, and so on. Far too broad a spectrum for TFL, in my opinion, and not really central to the purpose of the forum.

May 5, 2011, 09:18 AM	#16
chadstrickland Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2011 Location: alabama Posts: 537	I also enjoy reading locked threads..but the difference I have noticed about the firing line and other threads is that this is supposed to be a step above the rest and has alot of extremely valuable knowledge and knowledgeable people roam around here that you simply don't find on other forums..however if they did start a shtf thing then we would have to be serious about our post and it would be extremely difficult to keep from posting silly things..as I am very guilty myself of doing as I am a very humorous person and enjoy a good joke....and I have found myself.."being slapped by a wet noodle" by one of the staff guys for skirts mods ( bad language )...it was a accident..but those guys would catch some serious flack and work overtime to control that forum..so I wont hold it against them in the slightest if they choose not to do this...another thought..a poll would be nice to...how do you say..take this forums temperature at the idea of a shtf forum and see how the members would act and if they could keep the reputation this place has acquired as being one of the best... __________________ Two weapons that was designed by the same man still in use by the us military 100 years later...1911 and m2...is there anything that comes close.....lol annd maybe perhaps a sig sauer p226 tac ops edition..

May 5, 2011, 09:35 AM	#17
mnero Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2011 Location: east coast Posts: 244	Well at least I know what the mod meant by Shtf LOL, but why start a thread you know they will close. Mods' got enough to worry about __________________ "I'm what ya call a 'conscientious objector'; you know a coward". Bender "futurama"

May 5, 2011, 09:46 AM	#18
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Guys, there are thousands of sites all over the internet that allow & even encourage SHTF threads. TFL doesn't happen to be one of those places. Get over it. Seriously. It's not a big deal & there are lots of places where you have an outlet for that type of post if that's your thing. Meanwhile, if you want to discuss firearms training and tactics in a realistic way, this is the place. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

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