Should I play the hero or be a "good witness"?

[JohnH1963]

Is it better to play the hero or be a "good witness"? In many of these active shooter scenarios, I honestly would rather play the hero engaging them with direct fire. I believe that waiting around for a tactical swat team to arrive only increases the chances that I or another person would get hurt or killed.

[R1145]

How's that for a useless platitude?

Seriously, the question is flawed: It's not an either/or proposition. Also, "hero" is a loaded word with emotional baggage attached.

Every situation is different. If you can help, get involved, but use restraint. Take action to defend life, otherwise call the authorities and report information.

The Golden Rule is a pretty good guide.

"Being a hero is about the shortest lived profession there is." Will Rogers

[scottaschultz]

Many years ago I had a job (not security related) that required security clearance at our airport. In order to get this clearance, I had to go through a training class with the airport police department to make sure I understood the rules.

One of the people in the class asked the instructor, "What if someone comes up behind you and threatens you with bodily harm unless you open the door to a secure area?"

Of course the answer was, "OPEN THE DOOR!"

The instructor then imparted these wise words to us...

The Army's motto is "Be All You Can Be", but as a vendor doing business at the airport, your motto is "Be All They Pay You To Be!" In other words, do NOT be a hero. Its not your job to put yourself in the line of danger.

Scott

[Bob F.]

Post #2 & #3 are both right on. Every scenario is fluid/dynamic. Trust your instincts! Are you gonna wait until the BG actually starts shooting? But many incidents are not what they seem.....................

Stay safe.
Bob

[PoorSoulInJersey]

The big question before you take any action: can you make a difference?

If you shoot at him, fail to stop him, and just become victim #4 (aka, the "Guy in the Red Shirt" to Star Trek fans), you didn't accomplish anything other than making yourself feel better (for a couple seconds).

If you are going to engage, make sure you have tactical advantage and don't endanger anyone else. How would you feel if you shot him and two other people standing beyond him?

If you can make a difference, then make it.
If you can't make a difference, then be a good witness.

[Ed K]

I have first
hand experience on this with 2 eppisodes both bank robries. I walked into my bank with my dog very large trained Mamamute I realized a robery was in progress saw guy with gun he saw me and dog I turned walked out he made no effort to stop me. Me and my dog got out alive it could have been different.
Second was in Rome Italy my wife and I walked in on bank robery perp was on way out she got thru door then it locked because I'm in door with cameras and metal dectors locked doors, he grabs my wife and her Uncle trying to get out I'm screaming in American b/g is screaming in Italian I'm gonna kill this SOB finnally some one tells this b/g let go of my wife and he'll get out of doorway I.m thinking how good my Nikon will look embeded in this guys head B/G comes out I move another B/G comes out other door 2 more pull up on motor bikes I freeze rethink my options it's not my money every one is safe I'm no hero but a very smart guy still here

[djohn]

No gun fire, then don't draw a weapon and be the aggressor.Do as they say let them have they money its federally insured you will not lose a dime.



All the bank robberies that happened in recent yrs in CT have not resulted in shootings or dealth within the bank,at least I am not aware of.


Why because they did what they asked and left with out incident and then the police handled it from that point on.


If you try to play a hero by drawing a weapon when no shots are fired,Its almost certain you will start the gun fight and perhaps be the cause of lives and or your own.


IMO that makes you the aggressor and not a hero.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Question is way to simplistic. Are you talking about being in the actual fire zone or running to the sound of cannons?

You might search for a post here by Chindo18Z on how some guy almost got killed charging to the fight.

[Keltyke]

Is it better to play the hero or be a "good witness"?

You could end up being a dead hero, too. Hero really isn't a good word in that instance. Remember, you are only allowed to draw and fire if you feel yourself to be in imminent mortal danger. You're not carrying to prevent robberies. Most states have a "third party defense" clause (look it up for your state), but that's walking a fine line and you could find yourself hung out to dry.

It depends entirely in the specific situation (you don't state what it is) and you gotta do what you gotta do.

Remember, the only good gunfight is one that never happens.

[KingEdward]

quote: "I believe that waiting around for a tactical swat team to arrive only increases the chances that I or another person would get hurt or killed".

It may be that you are talking about something pretty intense if a swat team is en route. If armed, there are so many variables that as others have mentioned, each situation is fluid.

My simple view is first things first. Which means observe and try to get descriptions, license tags, etc. Be a good witness. Now if this cannot be done without finding cover (due to agressor) then it can turn into fight or flee very quickly. Self preservation may take over and it may involve one shooting as a third party.

Making a decision to shoot at someone (not in my home as a threat and not directly assaulting me or spouse on "the street"), that is a tough call. Maybe one of the toughest.

MUCHO liability for me and my household if I make a wrong decision or a bad shot.

[Mr. James]

And remember, Monte, Door No. 1, Live Hero, or Door No. 2, Dead Hero, aren't the only possibilities.

If you mis-interpret the situation and the players, you might just find yourself the villain (Live, Dead, or just Maimed) of the piece.

[fixxervi6]

Too broad of a question, but the way I always tell my friends is,

My life isn't worth risking for 711's money, if someone is holding the place up I'll get in line and play, no reason whatsoever to put myself or bystanders at risk over something as simple as money.

Now, if he comes in blasting or shoots someone or something like that the situation has now escelated.

[p99guy]

The thing is, from experiance...in all but rare cases you will not be able to tell the good guys from the bad if you walk into a mutual exchange of gunfire.
That is why responding Police treat every one as bad guys when they get there(till things get sorted out) And BG's hardly work alone anymore....and thier "backup" may purposely look like a bystander woman(till they shoot you)

Now if they are herding everybody(and you) into the back of the store to kill witnesses, you feel free to open fire.....better to go out trying than down on your knees with a bullet to the back of your head....may the spirits of Norse Viking Berzerkers be with you during the bout.

[markj]

I think being a good witness is being a hero. Dead you are only good for feeding the plants. A CCW isnt a ticket to go shoot someone. Get some trainig then think about it. Cops get killed doing this stuff and they have some fine training. and equipment. Not just a CCW and a gun.

[BikerRN]

The thing is, from experiance...in all but rare cases you will not be able to tell the good guys from the bad if you walk into a mutual exchange of gunfire.
That is why responding Police treat every one as bad guys when they get there(till things get sorted out) And BG's hardly work alone anymore....and thier "backup" may purposely look like a bystander woman(till they shoot you)

I look like a "dirtbag" off duty.

Guess what, I'm one of the good guys. My biggest fear is getting shot off duty by the responding on duty LEO's.

Things aren't always what they seem and unless you are 100% positive of what's going on you would be better served to be a good witness and provide vital and necessary information.

Now, let's say you see me holding someone at gunpoint, unlikely but possible, as I don't get involved in gunplay off duty if it can avoided. OK, so here you are, walking down the sidewalk and see an unkempt long haired, looks like a "tweaker" dirtbag holding a gun on a guy in a shirt and tie.

The situation developed too fast for me to do anything but place the individual on the ground and draw my gun. Now, before I can issue verbal commands and identify myself, here you are. You would probably think I'm going to shoot the individual in the tie, and I may if that person commits certain actions that place me in fear of my life, or the life of a third party.

Guess what HERO, the "tweaker" looking individual is an off duty LEO.

THINGS ARE NOT ALWAYS WHAT THEY SEEM!

So, unless you are 100% certain of what is going on, you are better off reporting whom/what you see and hear. My life may depend upon it, as might your's. There's no guarantee that I will go home every night alive, but by God I will do what I have to do to try and make that happen. If that means not getting involved off duty, so be it.

Biker

[5whiskey]

I would like to reflect the general sentiment here. Unless you know the circumstances that you are dealing with, have a tactical advantage, are reasonably sure you will not do more harm than good, and if it will save human lives... well then in those cases, and only ones that meet all of the criteria, I would consider intervening.

If you ARE in the fire zone and you still don't know the circumstances, then get down/get out unless it is not possible in any way. If you shoot a cop or some other good guy, even though you did not know it at the time, then the odds say you will most likely be in serious do-do and lumped in with the Bad guys. There may be no good guy, they may both be bad guys... black and white these things many a time aint. Only respond unless it meets criteria for a SD scenario (your life is legitametly in danger from a person)

If you ARE NOT in the fire zone but you are 100% sure of the circumstance, and you could save a life/lives, and you have a tactical advantage... well then MAYBE you could consider intervening. You better know what the deal is before you get your gun off, though.




I am actually a very big believer in doing the right thing. I believe if we are too paranoid over our personal/legal safety to do the right thing, then we'll have to answer for the good things we didn't do one day. That's not to say that you should be trigger happy. The chances of actually getting the opportunity to use force to do some good that would be justified is 1 in 100k or something. You need to make sure you do it right.

[David Armstrong]

There is a pretty good reason virtually every business, LE organization, security outfit, and safety consulting organization says forget about being a hero, just sit back and be a good witness. Certainly every situation differs, but that should probably be the default position for most.

[PhoenixConflagration]

The OP mentioned an active shooter scenario, so I'll play to that. I have no desire to end up dead, nor do I discount the possibility that when it goes down, I'll $#!* myself and run (no one likes to think they would, but if you haven't been there, who knows how you'll react). Barring that, if someone is just plugging any target they can get in their sights, I don't feel as though I could just sit by and do nothing about it. I have an overinflated sense of righteous indignation, and while I've always tempered it with reason and moderation, in a situation like this it may just get the better of me.

All one can really say is, "I hope I do the right thing for the situation, whatever that may be."

[ECHOONE]

I have to just shake my head at these people who want and need to fulfill there life by becoming a HERO! Getting a concealed carry permit does in no way make you a LEO, it's not your job and most don't have the slightest bit of training to know how to handle such a situation! If your life is ultimately on the line or someone else's, MAybe if you are very very sure it won't cause a more severe threat in doing so, In most cases your the Hero by remembering as much intel as possible for the police!
Seems like some just are dying to pull the trigger on a BG, A little advice if, God Forbid you find yourself having to take another person's life, even if it's a BG, Don't think for one minute that for a long long time your not going to be effected by the image and picture of killing someone haunting you in your dreams! Live with that for a year then decide if your ready to be a so called HERO! It's not the glorious scenerio most think it is, LEO's have problems with it, Soldiers have problems with it, You think you won't! one misplaced rd and you'll be sitting in jail! The only true Hero's are the guys that didn't come back!

[KCabbage]

Don't "play" hero. Be yourself and do what's right(good).

--Another thing, when I was young I was in a a few life or death incidents and I would have loved someone to be there for me. So whenever I see someone in desperate need of help i'm there!

[OldMarksman]

In many of these active shooter scenarios, I honestly would rather play the hero engaging them with direct fire.

Well, I had to look up "active shooter scenarios" to see just what the heck this is about.

Every reference I can find has to do with law enforcement or SWAT team training or training for campus security organizations.

That says to me we're talking about trained, indemnified, sworn officers acting as teams.

I'm not trained, I'm not indemnified, I'm not sworn, and I am one person.

And I'm not stupid.

Nor do I engage in fantasies about gunfights. My gun is for use as a last resort, period. I do not see my CCW endorsement as a kind of badge that confers upon me police powers.

Nor am I under the impression that if I try "engaging them with direct fire" that I will necessarily be regarded as a "hero." Where I live I have the duty to retreat, and if I injure or kill a bystander, it will not be the community that makes them whole--that will be done at my expense, as will my defense.

To me it's a complete no-brainer.

I really think ECHOONE has it right in every respect.

[djohn]

My buddy got hit on his custom Harley Davidson by a small pick up truck.The guy was drunk as a skunk driving the truck.


My buddy had a broking leg and Hip and the bike was on top of him,he was stuck under it.


A gentlemen or he calls a guardian angle came out of the blue and pulled him out from under the bike to safety.Shortly after the bike caught fire,it bursted into flames.


The gentleman disapeared in the crowds,the funny thing is not one witeness remembers seeing Him or what he looked like.know thats a hero in my book.




IMO getting into a gun battle is not being a hero unless you absolutley took out a BG that was just on a shooting spree and have prevented other casualty.

[scottaschultz]

And if you are really that serious about engaging with active shooters, why not join the Army? They will train you on the proper use of a wide variety of firearms, even fully automatic ones! Way cool, eh? And after basic training, I am sure they can be very accommodating when it comes to shipping you off to a place where you can almost be assured that you will be engaging active shooters. And unlike being a civilian, you will actually get paid for the privilege of being shot at!

Scott

[Keltyke]

If you shoot - you life WILL be forever changed.

You may be disarmed, handcuffed, and even spend some time in jail until the cops get the situation sorted out. You will be interrogated. You WILL need to hire a lawyer.

If there's anything slightly off center about the shooting, you will be charged and may have to stand a criminal trial. You stand to lose your right to own guns. If you're convicted, you may spend prison time - away from your family and loved ones.

You will probably be civilly sued by the BG or his family. Even if you're found innocent of criminal charges, a civil lawsuit can be won by "a preponderance of the evidence". 50.1% does it there. You could lose everything you own.

You will become famous instantly. Your name, if not your picture, will be published in every local paper. Your friends may shun you. Even your family may not understand. Some people may even hate you. You may see and hear mailed and verbal threats.

You will probably relive the scene again and again in your mind. You may have nightmares about it. I've never shot anyone and frankly, I don't want to think what it would be like. It may affect your emotions and personality. It's called post-traumatic stress syndrome. It's very real and very incapacitating. You may need medical or psychiatric treatment. Your family will have to live with you as a changed person.

If you draw your weapon and don't succeed, you may die or be maimed for life. Your family will have go on without you.

Now, I've outlined some worst-case items, but think it over...is it worth it?

I'll shoot to protect my life or my family's lives, or another person's life. Make no mistake about that. I won't shoot to protect another's property or money.

[scottaschultz]

You will probably be civilly sued by the BG or his family.

The only exception to this might be if you shot someone in your home. Many "castle laws" have a provision that state that IF you are found to be criminally innocent of the shooting, the "victim" or his family can not bring a civil suit against you. If you shoot someone away from your home, its a whole different ballgame.

But still, this follows being legally cleared, and this can be a lengthy and expen$$$ive process. And even if you are found to be in the right, the sheriff or chief of police will NOT thank you for doing their job for them by taking another BG off the streets. The mayor will NOT give you the key to the city or a medal of honor. John Walsh will NOT come to your house and feature you on AMW and give you an award for bravery.

As I have said in other threads, "Dead is forever!"

Scott