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Old July 7, 2015, 10:41 AM   #1
riverratt
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my first attempt with hollow points failed

So I got a chance to go to the range today and run a terminal performance test with my new NOE mold. I was shooting both cup points and hollow points with my .44 mag my alloy was aprox. 3/1/96 tin antimony lead. My muzzle velocity was clocked at a touch over 1350 fps. Both bullets caused massive amounts of damage, killing the wet pack instantly, but shed the nose section within the first few inches

What a bummer, at least the bullets shot great. Guess it's back to the drawing board, then the range.
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Old July 7, 2015, 02:02 PM   #2
TimSr
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My take on it would be that lead needs to be soft enough to expand, and lead that is too hard to expand will instead shatter.
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Old July 8, 2015, 01:36 AM   #3
FrankenMauser
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Yep. Soften the alloy up a bit, and I think you'll start seeing where you need to go.

It can't really be considered a 'failure', can it? You still got to shoot your own bullets, and have some fun at the range, right?



For nearly anything in cast bullets, there are almost always at least two ways to get the job done.
In the case of heavy bullets for .444 Marlin, for example, we are always fighting the desire for expansion and the need for a hard(ish) alloy. But, the most common failure of such bullets is shearing of the nose, which ends up turning the bullet into a short and stubby conical.

If you try to use a hard alloy (18+ BHN) with a wide meplat, you get this: 325 gr nose shearing. (The image I'm most interested in is at about 1:16.)

If you go too soft (~9 BHN) to get more expansion, you get ridiculous leading and the bullet does this: 455 SG shrapnel. (The pertinent close-ups are at about 1:16 again.)

A certain person that I know very well decided to re-contour the nose of the bullet to prevent shearing (pretty close to a Postell design, really), in order to be able to use a 'medium' alloy (~13 BHN). At lower velocities, it does this: FrankenMauser 22 jugs.
But, at designed impact velocities (1,800-2,000 fps), the nose swells and it comes out looking like a slightly dinged-up WFN. (Can't find my picture. )


Why am I babbling about this crap, on a Hollow Point thread?
...Because people use the same approaches to get the desired results.

Some people use a softer alloy.
Some people use a smaller hollow point.
And crazy people redesign the bullet. (Don't look at me. I'm just 'special'. )
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Old July 8, 2015, 02:09 AM   #4
riverratt
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Quote:
It can't really be considered a 'failure', can it? You still got to shoot your own bullets, and have some fun at the range, right?
This is very true. I'll try to cast some this weekend but drop the tin to 2% and cut the shot with 75% roofing lead instead of 50%. We'll see how that does.

Ya know the best part about a failed test is ya get to test something else, yup more range time
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Old July 8, 2015, 05:38 PM   #5
Mike / Tx
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The biggest thing you have to understand about getting the HP's to work for you is that it is all a big balancing act. The alloy has to be strong enough to withstand the initial spank on the rear by the powder charge, then hold up to the sheer of slamming into the rifling without shaving or sliding. Once you have those then it has to be malleable enough to hold together while rolling back without shearing off due to stress around the base of the cavity.

It took some playing but I think I worked out a couple of alloys which do just that at various velocities, and pressures. I call one of them my 150 and the other my 175. The 150 is good for velocities up to around 1100fps before starting to sheer, and loads using HS-6 in my 45 Colt or mid level 2400 loads out of my 41 or 44 magnums. The 175 is or has shown to be good up to around 1500fps before really getting torn up but is best in the 1350'ish range.

This first pick shows some 220gr bullets on the left and some 180gr bullets on the right. Both were shot into the same recovery buckets. The 220's were at 1350fps and the 180's were at 1600fps. These were out of my 175 alloy. While the 180's DID separate, I don't hold that against them. I pushed them to the limit to find out what they would do. Even though they did separate however they still rolled back nicely first and I DO believe they would hold together much better moving through tissue like a deer or similar critter, than they did slamming into the lid of a sand filled 5 gallon bucket.


Next we have some different bullets using the 150 alloy fired with loads of 13grs of HS-6 out of my 7.5" Redhawk in 45 Colt. These get along at just over 1100fps.



These are some MP 360640's poured out of my 175 alloy and loaded over 13grs of AA-9, and hit just over 1350'ish from my 6" GP-100's. They start out at 160grs and end up around 145'ish give or take a few grains.


These are some I poured from the Accurate 454-280C mold. As you can see these are a nice wide meplat solid, but poured out of hte 150 alloy they roll back nice and neat. These are also loaded over 13grs of HS-6 in the 45 Colt.


To be honest you have to have a good blend of tin, antimony, and pure to get repeatable expansion. You have to balance the tin and antimony, but when you get up to about 2% of both you start to get brittle again. Great for solids but terrible for HP's.
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Old July 9, 2015, 06:56 AM   #6
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You might consider a straight lead/tin alloy without antimony. Antimony tends to make the alloy "brittle." I have found that alloys approaching 30-1 lead/tin will deform nicely even without a hollow point. With a hollow point I think you would be very happy with that alloy. You can load these to a lower velocity and still obtain good terminal performance. If it were me, I would cast a few and using starting load data to see how they perform, and work up slowly looking for stripping. Too, I would size them as large as they can be made and still fit my firearm. If a revolver, the chamber mouths may be your limiting constriction. If a carbine, you may find you can load some pretty "fat" bullets for the chambering.

Issue with the 30-1 as I see it is if there is a relatively long nose on the bullet ahead of the front driving band, your nose may "slump" upon firing, which does nothing for accuracy, and I suppose it might cause an issue with the dimensions of the cavity in the nose. If you notice this phenomenon, add a little bit more tin. At 20-1 I get no nose slumping, but I haven't tested this bullet for terminal deformation. I would anticipate with a solid that it wouldn't deform much, but with a hollow point? --Maybe!

Good luck. Sometimes the fun is in the frustration.

Mike/TX perhaps you could share the recipe for your 150 and 175 alloys?
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Old July 9, 2015, 09:02 AM   #7
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My first thought is there's no animal on this earth with flesh as dense as wet-pack. Or most certainly sand! You're asking too much from any boolit to expand and NOT shear it's nose off.

The industry standard of bullet test media is ballistic gelatin,, Jello. But it's expensive and has to be handled at certain temps and is difficult to transport. It spoils as well.

I've shown the stuff I have from the now defunct bullet test tube outfit. I got some that they had sold out to Brownells just before they closed up shop.



It's an emulsified wax, soft and gooey.

Here's a Barnes 62 grain .223 X bullet recovered from it;



And here's a couple of 45's, the HP is a MP 200 RNHP.





Those guys at the bullet test tube outfit felt that it resembled muscle of the average animal pretty closely.

As far as alloys go, I agree that any amount of antimony is NOT wanted in a HP mix. It DOES cause shearing, causes the boolit to be brittle. I have a large source of nearly pure lead that I alloy to be about 20-1 lead-tin. That works great in 45 acp, and should do well in other calibers. Tin comes from 95-5 lead-free solder that does NOT have antimony as the 5% component.
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Old July 9, 2015, 12:14 PM   #8
Mike / Tx
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Snuffy,

I will certainly agree I push things a bit hard on the bullets, but over the past 30+ years of catching bullets in piles of that sand, and then comparing them to what I have managed to recover from game there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two. It's a WHOLE lot easier to pick the handgun bullets out of it while they are contained in the bucket as well. I know that if it will hold together during these test then I shouldn't have any issues on game. I would rather get less than more to give me better penetration anyway. I just haven't had the chance to try them out on anything 4 legged yet.

stubbicatt,

If you read through the post real carefully, you should be able to figure out my blend(s). I have had some out being tested by a few close friends and they report back very similar results to what I get over a broad range of velocities and calibers. At this time I would rather not post up the exact formula, as I am contemplating the possibility of having some certified made up to sell.
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