Evidence for difference between Finn M39 and Russian 91/30

[RonC]

I took my Finnish M39, remanufactured from a 1930s Russian Mosin Nagant 91/30, and a Russian Mosin Nagant 91/30, 1935, to the range. The first photo is of the best group from the M39.


This next photo is the best of the Mosin Nagant 91/30:


Obviously, this is not a highly controlled test. They were shot from sandbags, so human error is involved (with me being the supposed human). The trigger of the M39 was much better than the 91/30 and made it much easier to shoot accurately.

These are just two representatives of their type of rifle, so either one could be an outlier.

Still, it was much, much easier to be accurate with the Finnish version of the Mosin Nagant.

Ron

[UpandAtIt]

I keep 1 - 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with my M44 Mosin Scout. My 91/30 is right around 2" at 100 yards. If I switch to Norma factory or my reloaded rounds they both tighten up. This is with bag rest, shooting over grass. My best mil-surp ammo groups come from the Bulg 147 grain.

With out a doubt the Finn guns and ammo are better crafted and much better finish but my M39-Finn scout and my M44-Russian scouts both shoot about the same at 100 yards given same ammo and conditions. The Finn is just a lil smoother on the bolt and trigger. That when shot offhand standing, the Finn shines through for accuracy.

[simonkenton]

I love my M39, beautiful rifle!

[RonC]

I should add that I was shooting Bulgarian surplus ammo from Sportsman's Guide. It likely was taken from a dead Turkish soldier in 1658.

That ammo is not only corrosive, but it was DIRTY as well. After pouring through plenty of hot water, when I cleaned both rifles there was some of the thickest black crud I have ever seen. And that was after only about 20 rounds each.

I found that the trigger of the 91/30 was the biggest problem I had in shooting for accuracy.

Regardless, I had a great time shooting them. Followed up with 1/2 hour of shooting an S&W 3913 and a Kahr MK9. Now that makes for a fun day!

Ron

[UpandAtIt]

This trigger slack spring will take care of some of the trigger issues. The real fix to a Naggy trigger is shortening the flat trigger spring and adding shims until the pull is crisp, takes about 1/2 half hour to get it right. I have mine down to a very crisp but safe 7 1/2 pounds and the pull is like snapping glass now. You can even polish the surface of the sears (not remove metal, just polish it) and make sure it is greased, not oiled.

You can get the slack spring here :

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=170981520

One other trick to try and it honestly works is add the bayonet to the muzzle and you will see your groups tighten up for both the rifle and carbine. On the carbine add a muzzle brake to reduce the climb and recoil by up to 60%, you can find carbine muzzle brakes on gunbroker as well.

[TX Hunter]

I am getting ready to purchase an MN-39 from SOG,
The pictures however look the same on their website.
Will you please post me a picture of both Rifles so I can make a comparison?
Nice groups by the way.

[UpandAtIt]

The main difference between a M39 and a M44 is the M39 does not have a bayonet nor the groove in the barrel to mount/attach one. Also the rear sight graduation is in smaller incriments per click and is also curved Vs. straight. The fit and finish of the M39 is much better than the M44, especially seen in the bolt, trigger assembly and the depth and sharpness of the lands and grooves. Most M39's come with sling swivels rather than cut outs in the stock but I have seen them both ways. The M44 has an added barrel band and a slight different in upper and lower forearm areas.

NOTE: Very hard to make a Scout Rifle out of a M39 due to the sight base design, the M39 (using M44 bases) usually need the hole diameter increased and some shims when installed.

M39



M44


I have a few from SOG and the 91/30's they have are really beat (NOT arsenal refinished, just literally dunked in shellac, the whole rifle) the M44 they had were pretty good but all had dark bores. The M39 was in pretty good condition and arsenal refinished, some spotty dark spots in the bore but no pitts and the bolt was much better finished.

If they allow a hand select, ask for a NON shellaced hardwood model with the best selected bore. they will probably only pick up 5 or so to select from.

www.Royaltigerimports.com has really nice and clean 91/30's for $79.00 and come with a full accessory pack.

Gunbroker right now has a ton of Mosins in all conditions and makes/models, might want to check there before you grab one via SOG.

[RonC]

Thank you for the suggestions, UPandATIT!
As for the photos, here is the M-N 91/30:


And here is the Finnish M39:


Many of the Finnish M39's started out as rifles captured from the Russians during the first Finn-Russian unpleasantness. The Finns used the receivers and barrels, remanufactured them, then used Arctic Birch for the stocks. The Arctic Birch could withstand the snows and cold. During the second Finn-Russian confrontation, the Russians brought in their armor. That was a little too much for the Finns.

Ron

[TX Hunter]

UPandAtit, thank you so much for your advice, I do not want to buy a Beat up Rifle, dunked in Shelac. You saved me on that one.
I noticed that the MN39 and the M44 are about the same leinght I thought the MN39 was longer.
So I may end up getting a full leingth 9130. My Son has one, a Tripple Dated 1933 MO Marked Tula Hex. I envy the rifle, and want to get one of my own.

Ron thanks for the pictures, Your Rifles are very nice.
Its hard to pick which kind I want to buy I like all of them.

OH Yea, I found some M-44s at this sight that are pretty reasonable, thought I would share.
WWW.FloridaGunworks.Com

[Clark500]

TXHunter,

I looked at Florida Gun Works awhile back but decided not to buy from them. I was looking for an M44, and they were about the only place that had them. However, the first red flag for me was that they do not advertise a business phone - only email. I then checked the BBB website, and the BBB gives Florida Gun Works an "F" rating. That sealed the deal for me.

[UpandAtIt]

one of the best sites for Mosin info and I mean everything you ever even thought you might want to know about the guns, variations, ammo and variations, accessories is 7.62x54r.net..... the actual web site is

http://7.62x54r.com/

They have pictures with descriptions of each and every model and variant. They also have a great resource in their forum for advice and knowledge.

Buying just ONE mosin is like running your car on one tire.... you really need at least 4 to get the full impact and enjoyment out of these very fine rifles. I would suggest starting with a nice and clean 91/30 with accessories, then move to a M44, then to a M39 and if you can find one.... /59.

I would HIGHLY rec getting some of thisTRAINING ammuntion. It is 44.7 grain hollow core with a bi-metal jacket, round nose and out to 100 yards similar ballistics of light and heavy rounds, after 100 yards the ballistics fall from there. They are a dream to shoot and offer up to 70% less felt recoil and muzzle blast and great for the wife and kids to shoot.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=170955387

[TX Hunter]

Thanks Clark,
Your Right, no Phone Number, HMM that is kind of shady.

[simonkenton]

The M39 is a bigger rifle, and has a longer barrel than the M44.

[HvyMtl]

UpandAtIt, the M39 did have bayonets, just clarifying your statement:"M39 does not have a bayonet nor the groove in the barrel to mount/attach one." When the Finns decided to remove the M39 from their arsenals, they scrapped most of the bayonets. In many cases, an original M39 bayonet will be more $ than the rifle.

Florida gun works cite is OLD and no longer valid. They are now at
http://www.floridamilitarysupply.com/

IMHO, I think it poor they left the old site up, too confusing.

Critical differences between the M44 and M39 - aside from the obvious stock and bayonet, is the barrel and sights. The Finn M39 replaced Russian barrels with a heavier barrel, allowing the use of heavier ammo... supposedly including machine gun ammo. IMHO, I would not shoot known machine gun ammo through any bolt action rifle... The M44 were built After WWII and after the M39 were produced.

The M39 is known to be one of the most precise Mosin Nagant type rifles.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant

another source: http://mosinnagant.net/

Check gunboards.com for a very active mosin nagant forum

[TX Hunter]

One more question about the MN-39 are the sights regulated for close range shooting?

I have a Mauser, and one problem I have with it, is that the sights are regulated a minimum setting of 200 yards, makes it shoot high.
One thing that I like about my Sons Mossin, is that you can set it on 100 and hit close range targets.

[RonC]

I found with my M39, with the rear sight remaining down, it was right on at 100 yds. The 91/30 was shooting about an inch high.

Ron

[TX Hunter]

Thanks Ron.

[UpandAtIt]

Tx Hunter, there is a set of front post sights that can cure any high placements at short ranges. You just remove (screws out) the orig and replace the front site with one that works for the range you are shooting at.

This a quick fix method for adjusting Mosin sights:

http://carteach0.blogspot.com/2009/0...sight-fix.html

BTW I placed my one M44 Scout in the TFL Classifieds if anyone is interested.

[ksstargazer]

The are reproduction M39 bayonets out there - I have two of them. They currently sell for around $70.
The sights on a M39 are far superior to a standard Soviet mosin. All M39's were not released unless they performed at 1.5 MOA or better. I have had 6 of them and all were that accurate.
I have never seen a M39 with a cutout on the stock nor have I seen one with a curved rear sight. UpandAtIt had quite a few strange comments about the M39 - is he referring to another type of rifle?

[UpandAtIt]

Hi Kss - I have owned close to 40 Mosins - various models and makes and currently own 14 Mosins - different models and makes to include the Remingtons and Winchester made models. I have owned 7 - M39's, of those, two had cut outs for the sling and they were not after market replaced stocks from a Rus or other. Most had NO barrel cut for the folding bayonet, two of them did. The barrels on M39's are larger in diameter and length. The bolt, trigger assemblies and sights were better machined. I have had two M39's with curved sights. I have seen factory varients that I have not seen on the Mosin forum boards. With the M39's being made from captured parts by the Finns, the rifles were in various stages of completion. All had barrels replaced, about 3/4 had new bolts made and all had new trigger assemblies. I have seen 4 different styles of sights on M39's. Not sure what you find so confusing.... but given the breath and scope of Mosin mfg by all countries involved, I would not be surprised to see anything as it stands now.

[l.cutler]

A Winchester made Mosin? You must mean Westinghouse, Winchester never made them.

[ksstargazer]

Hmm. Only Finns made model 39's. Folding bayonet cutouts? 4 different sights on a M39? I've got to see pictures.

[UpandAtIt]

Cutler - Yes, sorry I honestly meant westinghouse. I had winchester on the mind at the time as I am searcing for a used winny 94 and has preoccupied my time and thoughts.

Kss - I do not have the folding bayo cuts on the barrel rifles anymore but they were also on Finns at Gander Mountain in Elyria Ohio, they prob still have em as they had $599 price tags on em. The M44 bayonet would not fit it. The sling cut out ones I had almost two years ago but had also seen them at the Berea Ohio gun show recently on a table full of about 100 different Mosins, I believe the dealer was Medina Shooters supply, I have no clue if they still have them ot not. Of the sights, I have two of the 4 different ones on hand and will take a few pics when I get a chance, the differences were Curved Vs Straight ON my M39's as received and not fussed with, inset and outsetted in the base (makes up the 4 styles). Yes, only the Finns made the MN39, I was stating I had a lot of Mosins and some from Rem and Westinghouse (mistakingly said winchester).

[zombieslayer]

I really love my m39. Its got a good solid feel, and shoots very well. I've had other mosin variants and I like them all, but IMO these are the best. Where can I find one of those reproduction bayo's??

[Flipper 56]

Aw C'mon that is an easy one. I have a Finnish M28/30 that looks like a canoe paddle but will eclipse an M-39 any day. Experiment with handloads, those Finnish Mosin-Nagants are staggering to the imagination.