Dealing guns without a license

[ISC]

In the course of building my collection I've bought and sold alot of guns, and I am sensitive to the concern that I might be accused of "dealing without a license". I can see the difference between dealing and buying and selling guns to advance your collection.

Many times I've bought a gun and then, later, bought the same model of gun in better condition or in a different configuration (numerous
SKSs and M44s). Since I didn't need 2 identical guns in my collection, I sold the first one.

I've also bought guns that I just couldn't get to shoot reliably (CETME) or accurately(mini14), so I sold thim and looked for what was essentially the same gun that actually worked right.

I went through a divorce and sold off alot of my collection to make ends meet and I made mnoney off of almost all of them.

When the post election buying spree was going on I was just finishing up getting my degree and neded the money, so I sold quite a few of my guns, again making a good profit on most of them. I more than doubled my money on several.

I've heard the thumbrule that you're not supposed to sell more than 5 a year, but there isn't anything anywhere that states that. What ATF does say (paraphrased) is that if you spend a significant amount of time and the trade in firearms is a large part of your livlehood, then you need to get an FFL (which they will try to find a reason NOT to issue).

What are ya'lls thoughts on that?

[justashooter]

as a type 1 FFL i can confirm that you may buy and sell for the purpose of enhancing your collection, but that you may not buy and sell with the intent to generate income. if income is generated as a result of the sales, that is a different matter.

if you take out tables at every gun show in your area and flip 50-100-500 guns a year you will get noticed by ATF agents that troll the shows. most of the time your gut will tell you who they are. sometimes it will not.

for this reason, your answer to anybody that asks is that you are just selling off junk that no longer interests you, and do not do it for a living or make the buying and selling of guns a hobby. you just collect guns for a hobby, and that sometimes involves making sales in order to generate more fun money to take your collecting hobby in a new direction.

[engineermike]

All I can say is don't move to New Jersy.

[dogtown tom]

ISC: ....which they will try to find a reason NOT to issue....

As they should. If your application for a FFL is denied, it's because you didn't meet the requirements- and that isn't the fault of the ATF IOI. He's a pencil pusher following the book.

If you meet the requirements, you get the license. It IS that easy.
Those requirements include being able to operate legally as a business in your locale. Meaning you have to get all required permits as would any other business. If you can't get zoned for a firearms business blame your town, not ATF.

[44 AMP]

The key phrase is "engaged in the business". Buying and selling guns from/for your personal collection is fine. Even if its quite a few guns (we should all be so lucky!). But doing it with the intent of making money, making a living ( or part of one), without a license, is a crime. And it is their opinion that matters.

You are allowed to make a profit. If the gun you bought for $200 sells later for $600, thats fine. But if you are buying guns for $200, planning to sell them for $600, and do, that's not.

[johnwilliamson062]

You are allowed to make a profit. If the gun you bought for $200 sells later for $600, thats fine. But if you are buying guns for $200, planning to sell them for $600, and do, that's not.

I think this is the grey area. I got a super deal on a hi-point a while back. I wasn't a big believer, in the middle of the mad rush a hi-point with holster, extra mags, mag pouches, etc for $110 was a super deal so I bought it. Shot it a little and threw it in the safe. I knew from day one the thing was likely to get sold to finance something or used a s trade fodder at a greater value than I paid for it. I already had a Glock 26 so what do I really want the thing for? Now I have a guy who wants to buy it and I am going to make a few dollars. That money will inevitably go into some other gun thing. Probably a decent 10/22 target stock.
When i wanted a semi-auto shotgun there was a guy with two for sale and he wanted to get rid of them as a package for a pretty good deal. They were both models I was looking at so I bought them both and decided which I wanted then sold the other off. Hard to trace the original price on the one, but I think I made some money off of it over just buying one.

I often buy things b/c I have an interest in trying them out and I think I can sell them later at least at no loss or maybe even a profit.

[44 AMP]

It is a bit of a gray area, but its not as gray as some people think. You can sell a gun, or three for a profit. No big deal. You can sell 50 at one time, liquidating your collection and its not "engaging in the business". You can decide a month later you don't want to stop having guns and buy some more. Again, not in the business.

But if you are having a table at gunshows on a regular basis, and you sold 20 Hi points from your "collection" in the past few months, odds are a govt agent will be interested in looking at you. If it looks like you are buying and selling on a regular basis, with the intent of making a profit, you might be engaging in the business.

A gun here or there, they don't care. A bunch of guns once, or maybe even a time or two over a few years, they don't care. The guy that sells 50 Jennings in a few months? They'll want to talk to him.

[carguychris]

A gun here or there, they don't care. A bunch of guns once, or maybe even a time or two over a few years, they don't care. The guy that sells 50 Jennings in a few months? They'll want to talk to him.

+1, but I'd like to add another example that I've heard cited as a red flag: buying and then blatantly reselling right away. Don't buy in the gun show parking lot and then resell the same gun inside at your table, or vice versa.

[csmsss]

Another, possibly not minor consideration - if the ATF considers you to be in the business of buying and reselling firearms, can there be any doubt that they will make their friends at the IRS well aware of what they think you've been up to?

[dogtown tom]

csmsss Another, possibly not minor consideration - if the ATF considers you to be in the business of buying and reselling firearms, can there be any doubt that they will make their friends at the IRS well aware of what they think you've been up to?

Not just the IRS.......the State of Texas will want their 8.25% as well.
(and woe be the seller who does not have a state sales tax certificate displayed at his table)

[sousana]

If you do it as a business, with the intent to make a profit, then they will most likely consider you a dealer. If, like me, I buy guns to add to my collection, and occasionally, if the weapon does not meet my specifications, I may end up selling it or trading it.

[1-DAB]

tell ya what, i'll take the whole mess off your hands for $1. you pay to ship of course.

no profit made, no more temptation to sell for a profit. no money to go buy more stuff. what, you have money in savings? send that too. i'll send you an allowance that will just barely cover your bills.


good advice above. all comes down to intent. i presume you keep a log of guns bought and sold, and would be able to show that whatever profit you may have realized was fairly small compared to your other income sources. and of course, any profit was properly reported on your taxes as "other" income.

[johnwilliamson062]

I think the only way to be safe about this is to dump the money back into firearms

[Tom Servo]

44 Amp has it right. I remember seeing the word "repetitive" in the regulations.

Basically, it comes down to intent. If I'm selling a gun I've had for several years, then I probably didn't buy it with the intention of selling it. If I have 10 of the same make/model of gun shipped in from an online wholesaler, and I sell them the following day, then the intent is there.

Some dealers spot patterns in shipments they receive for transfer and proactively notify the BATFE.

[johnwilliamson062]

Basically, it comes down to intent.

The problem with this, although I believe you are absolutely right, is that intent is not something either side has any ability to prove.
The question then boils down to what behavior does the BATFE interpret as having the intent to operate w/o a license and what can you say to those you interact with without running afoul of the BATFE. The blatant example listed isn't what people are looking for. They are looking for the grey area.

I think it REALLY comes down to volume. Both of a single gun and of a total guns over a period of time.
Over the last few years I spent a lot of time buying guns. B/c of life changes I am now selling/trading a lot of those guns. Some of them cheap C&R surplus, although mostly bolt guns and very few handguns, and luckily almost all sold successfully for what I paid or more. I would say my behavior objectively without the explanation of my situation would be about as close as anyone with my income wants to come to operating as a dealer. SO much so that I have actually contact my local BATFE office and told them. I really contacted them to cancel my 03 FFL, but I let them know the back story and that I would be selling a number of rifles I had only owned for a year or two.

Plus I didn't really take any money out of my collection. I just ended up with more holster, springs, sights, stocks, grips, tools, etc. for what I did keep.

[Tom Servo]

I would say my behavior objectively without the explanation of my situation would be about as close as anyone with my income wants to come to operating as a dealer

Not really. I'd consider that someone indulging in their hobby.

I have lots of friends who trade guns like crazy. Some will buy a gun and trade it off after having it less than a week. The difference is, they're not relying on the sale of guns as a major source of income.