Gunsmith's S.O.P., Gunsmiths only!

[dahermit]

A statement has piqued my interest. The gist of the statement was that when a person takes a handgun in to a gunsmith, the gunsmith will not only fix the problem for which it is brought to him, but check and fix anything found to be outside factory specifications. My instincts tell me that given that all the gunsmiths I have ever dealt with were backed-up days or sometimes weeks, that they would not likely take the time to do anything except fix the problem that prompted the trip in the first place.
However, I am not, or have never been a professional gunsmith and may be wrong...so, Professional Gunsmiths only (current or retired), please respond to this poll:

[mete]

In gunsmithing school they pointed out that any gun going out the door should be in proper operating condition .Two reasons for this .That is part of " professional work " .A gun not working properly can do damage to your reputation. Legal problems can put you out of business , "liability lawsuits ".

[dahermit]

In gunsmithing school they pointed out that any gun going out the door should be in proper operating condition .

Mete, Two questions: Are/were you a gunsmith? Why did you not respond to the poll?...yea or nea? Did you compare all the specs in each handgun to factory? With all due respect, the poll did not ask what was taught in gunsmithing school (many "gunsmiths" here in MI have not been to any gunsmithing school), but what is/was your practice.

[Gunplummer]

If I found something else, I got on the phone. If the "Something else" was dangerous and the customer did not want to fix it, I gave a small inspection charge and returned it. You should explain your policy when the customer first shows up.

[Slopemeno]

Our policy was similar to Gunplummer's. If say, it came in for sights and it turns out it needed the timing corrected- we'd call the customer back and let them know. If he declined the timing repair, he'd still get the sights repaired, but his gun would be returned to him with an "unsafe to fire" tag and we'd note that in the bound book.

I didn't answer the poll as our answer is somewhat between the two choices.

[dahermit]

If I found something else, I got on the phone. If the "Something else" was dangerous and the customer did not want to fix it, I gave a small inspection charge and returned it. You should explain your policy when the customer first shows up.

Did you check the width of the Hand on S&W revolvers, the width of the hand window, the cylinder barrel gap, when the gun was there to have something else entirely done, like replace a broken rear-sight blade? Please read the question in the post very carefully. It is not about finding something obvious that did not relate to the original problem, it was concerning detail checking specs...which I do not believe happens. Envision, if you will, a 1911 coming into a shop for a sticky magazine, and the Smith fixing it and then opening Kuhnhausen's volume II, and checking all the gun's specks...that was the general contention that started this thread.

[Roughedge]

I make sure the gun is safe and good working order before it goes out the door. I always make sure the safty works correctly and the gun fires like it should.

[Dfariswheel]

I can't really vote on the questions because it depends on what the problem was as to whether it gets turned away or just the requested repair is done.

If the issue is a safety issue that can affect safe operation, the customer was informed that I refused to do any work unless the problem was also corrected.

If the issue is not a real safety issue, I would do only the requested repairs, BUT the issue would be noted on the invoice and the customer would be required to sign the invoice stating that he knew about the issue.

The key point was if there was a safety issue either it got corrected, or the customer left with the gun as-is.
In that case he had to sign the invoice acknowledging that he had been made aware there was a problem and that it had not been corrected by his request.

[mete]

Dahermit ,I did graduate from CST but it's been a while.The question can open a big can of worms. How many know or can even find the factory specs ?? How many customers will tolerate the time or cost to have the gun checked for every spec ??
Back in those days there were many big name guns which were poorly made .At one point I used a check list like a pilot's and went over every part .That could be be a project !!!
Things have changed like cars. QC is better .
No more returning whole shipments of guns ! Legal aspects of liability can seriously damage reputations and put a dent in your budget,.I would be suspect of anyone who literally checks every spec on every gun

[oldgunsmith]

Most anything with a spring kit in it is technically "out of factory specs". I had a rubber stamp made that says "NOT SAFE TO FIRE" and stamp it in red on the line where the customer signs the ticket when she/he picks it up so the signature is over the warning any time the customer doesn't want to do what I think is necessary for safety.

[James K]

One shop I worked at had a special form for unsafe/questionable guns; the customer had to sign the form and got a copy; the shop kept the original with the "wet" signature. Like the others mentioned, we would not make any repairs other than those requested without contacting the customer.

An example of the use would be the case of an old shotgun that the customer wants fixed up to fire, often because some previous owner deliberately deactivated the gun, by removing firing pins or the like. It was our policy to fix the gun, but then to make sure the customer took responsibility for its use. Would that have been enough to keep us out of trouble? I don't know, but that was the owner's policy and AFAIK it was never tested in court.

I never heard of any non-factory shop that restored all guns to "factory spec." For one thing that would have involved having factory specs and all parts for every gun that could conceivably come in the door, an impossibility.

Jim

[dahermit]

How many know or can even find the factory specs ?? How many customers will tolerate the time or cost to have the gun checked for every spec ??

Mete, That is how I viewed the situation also. However, someone stated it was commonly done. If it is, they missed the fact that they did not leave the factory spec for barrel gap and the a pin in the trigger of my Colt P.P. when I took it in to have the barrel turned further in to align the front sight. That is why I posted that contention...someone stated it was such. As you pointed out, how would they even know the factory specs for all handguns. I do not think there is a big reference book that has all the specs for all the different brands.

[SgtLumpy]

If my gunsmith didn't know the specs for my gun, I'd find a new gunsmith.


Sgt Lumpy

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

Never make a repair without the customers knowledge. However, if a gun will be unsafe, due to another reason, it is best to call the customer, and explain the problem. If they do not want to fix it, let them come and get it. Liability is too great in this line of work to ever tie your name to an unsafe gun.

Here's a good scenario.

A man brings in a S&W with a broken firing pin (hammer nose), and wants it fixed. It is accepted, and after putting the new pin in, you find it is out of time, and unsafe. You call the customer, and he does not want to pay that. Okay, take the new pin back out, and give him the gun back, with the old pin, just do not give it back with the fireable pin in it. Also, save all paperwork on these cases, even put a photocopy in a file for cases you're worried that might come back to bite you somehow, so you can find it quickly.

By the way its worded, I couldn't answer the poll correctly.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

I do not think there is a big reference book that has all the specs for all the different brands.

This comes generally from experience, and measurements made in the past of working guns, and from some gun books on a specific model. Most will not have it. There is generally a working range of measurements (also done at the factory) on everything.

[dahermit]

If my gunsmith didn't know the specs for my gun, I'd find a new gunsmith.

I agree...you should quiz your gunsmith when you bring in an old 1917 S&W. What is the factory spec for the hand width? What is the factory spec for the firing pin protrusion? What is the factory spec for the length of the double action sear? How many pounds is factory spec for the trigger return spring? If he does not know those things off the top of his head I would search for a gunsmith that did...and search...and search...and search.
But then, it really does not matter that he does not know when he can fix the problem and do a few practical tests (for timing, etc.) to determine what else needs fixing.
The contention that if you take a gun in to fix a particular problem, that the gunsmith will "return it to factory specifications", is patently ridiculous.

[SgtLumpy]

The idea that you take a gun in with a pre-determined amateur diagnosis of what you think is wrong is problematic.

Consider the difference in -

- My double action trigger seems too stiff

vs

- I want you to replace my mainspring with a 7 lb spring


Any reputable smith would balk at the 2nd one, at least not without a lot of discussion. You take a gun in and give the smith a list of symptoms. He then addresses the symptoms which may be 1, 2 or a dozen tiny adjustments.

Gunsmith calls a few days later -

"Hi Craig - Your pistol is ready. The single action sear was a little rounded. I honed that back to where it should be. You also had a rough face on your rebound slide. I stoned that off. Your hand window was beginning to bulge. I was able to smooth that back with no problem. Your cylinder endshake was pretty exaggerated. You may have been having some misfires due to that. I adjusted that down to where it should be. The little spring in your firing pin housing was broken. I replaced that."

THAT is what I want my smith to do. I pay him one price for a tune up. He does any and all of the adjustments necessary to get that gun functioning the way it should. Short of something like replacing a hammer or a trigger, it's all covered under one job, one price.

I suppose there might be smiths out there who would examine the pistol and then let you know that "It'll be 7 dollars for this, 3 dollars for that, 12 dollars for that" but it's certainly a lot simpler for him, and for me, to say "A tune up is $150" and he addresses anything and everything that affects the good function of the pistol. I don't want a gun that has X and Y in good working order but doesn't have Z in good working order.

And THAT was the intent of my original statement in the other thread that got you all worked up. I believe my statement went something like "Instead of getting a lot of advice about changing this and that spring, advice from a lot of guessperts who aren't even looking at your gun, take the thing to a gunsmith. You'll get it back with your problem fixed and he will have fixed other problems that you didn't even know existed".

One way or another, that reputable gunsmith is either going to fix them or contact you to say "I need to fix this" or, based on the responses here, discontinue work and return the gun to you as unsafe.

This is not a "replace a broken rear sight blade" situation. This involves the inner workings of the pistol, as the original M17 poster was asking about.


Sgt Lumpy

[James K]

All I can say is that I never had a customer who told me to just fix anything that seemed wrong and paid the bill without question. Must be nice.

Jim

[Gunplummer]

Like they say in Lancaster: "I hear thee!". You are lucky if they don't cry to their Pals about paying a quoted price.

[Scorch]

I fix what it came in for, and if something is unsafe I call the owner and recommend they fix it, but of course they don't have to. If the gun is unsafe and they refuse to fix it, I have them sign a statement that acknowledges that the gun is in unsafe condition and should not be fired.

I do not return the gun to factory specs because I do not have either the time or money to put parts into a gun that I might not get paid for.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

I do not return the gun to factory specs because I do not have either the time or money to put parts into a gun that I might not get paid for.

Same here, plus, if you did, and they refused to pay, you're stuck holding the bag, as they have the right to refuse work not ordered. Some might say put a mechanics lien on it, but why get court involved, and gain a bad name in the business? If I took a car into the garage, and asked for four tires, but then when I came back, finding not only four tires, but a new motor too, I would be pretty pi##ed off. I would most likely squawk to my friends too.

What we gunsmiths have to worry about, being as our customer base is as small as it is, especially in rural areas, is word of mouth, and it wouldn't take long to get black balled, and our business ruined over it. Everyone has cell phones on them these days, so its not nothing to call the customer up at the bench and say, "Hey Al, your gun is going to require so and so to be safe, do you want me to continue to fix it"?

Unforeseen problems in firearms are found all the time, even after taking one in, and after the initial examination, so what do you do? You do the right thing, of course.

A huge majority of firearms can not be put back to factory spec, since the factory had a bunch of hand fitted parts in it to start with, along with no new parts available, making you have to buy a used part, or make something from scratch that will work. I don't know how many cylinder hands and stops I've built back with weld on old Iver Johnson and H&R top-break revolvers, even a complete hammer nose on one, etc. Plus, all the custom springs I've made, since there was nothing available. Where would somebody find original parts, or know the factory specs, for a Chicago palm pistol? Plus, if you want specs, you would need the parts print, and or complete gun prints to get the tolerances from. Those are not readily available, and the ones that are, are generally from military info. Remington and Winchester did provide good service manuals to use at one time, but they were one in a few.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

All I can say is that I never had a customer who told me to just fix anything that seemed wrong and paid the bill without question.

Same here, Jim, same here.

I have had a few say, 'fix it no matter what', but they were very few. Those are generally guns with some sentimental value to a customer, but most want to know what we intend to do, along with how much, and have a very limited budget to spend.

[RsqVet]

Dahermit---

I think the confushion you have regards what a "private" gunsmith will do vs. the gun maker MAY do. Ruger is famous for undoing things customers have done such as reduced power springs, action jobs, bobed hammers etc. Other makers are know to do this as well to an equall or lesser degree. To them it makes sense from a liability standpoint even though it may tick the customer off and costs them pocket change in parts. Flip side is if you get a used / bubba smithed Ruger it can usually be fixed economically.

The above statement only applies to things that to the factory are clearly out of spec. Like any machine wear is inevitable on a gun and there may be a range of acceptable specs forming a basis of go / no go determination, these numbers may or may not be known outside the factory. Furthermore I can reasonably state that there is always some judgent involved. Say a customer returns a sig 1911 to the factory with a broken mag release and the factory notices that the series 80 safety system has been removed? My money is on them fitting new series 80 parts. Say instead of series 80's parts removal they note a tuned ejector? Are they going to mess with something unrelated to safety and unrelated to the presenting complaint? Maybe maybe not...


The example of a 1911 and factory spec is a poor one as factory spec may or may not meet with the ordinance blueprint in the book. Thats where knoweldge and experiance come into play. Furthermore as others have mentioned many old guns did not have a spec, parts were filed to fit. In addition consider that some parts on a gun may wear thus other parts are fit "out of spec" to prevent replacing everything or scraping the gun.

A true "blueprinting" of a gun, if that is what you are refering to is rarely done outside of serious big dollar custom jobs. As others have alluded to it was done more commonly back in the day when if you wanted a 1911 you got a colt and went from there. Today with good spec or good starting point frames availiable from wilson, caspian, baer and others few spend the money to add metal to a frame and then re-machine it to whatever spec is needed.

Factories by law, can scrap a reciever that is too out of spec and issue a new one with the same serial, happens from time to time, or if the gun is out of production some will offer credit towards a new gun. Many, again noteably Ruger will go above and beyond to not return a gun they feel is unsafe.

[James K]

And Ruger has taken heat on the gun sites for doing that. Long and loud are the wails about how Ruger undid something that most people would realize was unsafe but which the complainer felt was just perfect. One guy griped that Ruger had replaced the transfer bar he had removed because it rattled.

Sheeeesh!

Jim

[SgtLumpy]

Here's the way it works at my gunsmith (thegunsmith.com Nelson Ford).

I take him the gun. Pay him $150 (for a K frame) and say "tune it up". He does anything and everything required to make it smooth, in timing, springs not too light or too heavy, smooths sharp trigger edges, straightens ejector rod, adjusts cylinder end play, installs a spring in the hammer mounted firing pin, installs a trigger overtravel limiter, peens the hand window, cleans and lubes everything, test fires it and probably a bunch of other stuff that I wouldn't know what it even is.

Any or all of those little jobs might or might not need to be done. It's all part of the package. The alternative would probably be for him to charge me to assess the gun then phone me and give me a list of all the little jobs and their individual small prices etc. To me that gets lengthy. And there's surely a point, as most of you have mentioned, where he wouldn't do one job while leaving other more critical jobs unsafe. He'll build you a 7 lb trigger if you want, but you'll have to convince him it's a race gun and you're using it only for competition.

It's the same way luthiers setup stringed instruments. The player (or in this case shooter) wants the gun back in top shape. I don't think anyone would want the hand window peened but the endshake not dealt with, for example.

It's simple, he does excellent and guaranteed work, I'm demanding of my pistols. Others might not want that level of tune-up. No problem with that. Some people might never get a tune up. No problem with that either.


Sgt Lumpy