Best pistol caliber vs body armor, NO Colorado posts!

[Chowder]

I believe either of those loads to the chest would do the job. Here is a Youtube video I found testing a .44 Magnum vs some expired body armor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu0zuYPcrv4

One thing that bothered me in this video is when the tester says that even though it didnt penetrate the persons organs would be "liquified". Do most people not understand how elastic most internal organs are?

[idek]

"there's a video or two out there of a guy in body armor voluntarily being shot by a high powered rifle at a distance of a few feet. He stands on one foot as he's shot and doesn't even lose his balance."


Why would he? The guy shooting the rifle didn't fall down... same energy is directed on both directions, fore and aft, every time a rifle is fired. If it doesn't knock down the shooter, it ain't gonna knock down the recipient.

...Physics must not be a strong subject among the local gentry...

Willie

Where did I say he should lose his balance? I post a link to a video proving it WON'T happen and somehow that means I'm bad at physics? You might want to consider that we were making the same argument before you start resorting to insults.

[BillCA]

this is a training issue not an equipment one. Practice often, well and hard and carry a comforting gun not a comfortable one. End of story.

This pretty well sums it up. In the few incidents where assailants have worn body armor most have not worn groin protectors and the head usually remains vulnerable too. The downside is that the head is a very difficult target to hit due to it's size, constant movement and the likelihood of a miss.

The groin/pelvic girdle zone has been suggested as an alternative. The downside here is that unless you manage to strike the hip-joint, it may not incapacitate rapidly or at all. Hitting the hip-joint might immobilize/distract the assailant long enough for a quality shot.

As WebleyMkV pointed out, AP handgun ammo is generally illegal and/or bound to get you talked about. I'd rather have a gun I can shoot well than rely on the rounds to penetrate soft armor. (Then there is the question of your reliance on penetration when you run into someone with a trauma plate. Back to square one.)

Most vests will stop a big-bore magnum round like the .44 Magnum. Yes, it's gonna hurt and you'll have a bruise everywhere the vest covered, but you'll be alive. Officers have been hit point blank with a .44 Mag and returned fire, so that should tell you something.

If you know your opponent is likely to be armored and no rifle is handy, probably the best weapon to select would be a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs. Any COM shot against soft body armor with a 12 gauge slug (especially a 3" shell) has a good chance of inflicting serious internal injuries.

[kcub]

OP, just get a laser grip for your .38 snub and practice face shots.

[JonathanZ]

HUGE difference between plated body armor and soft body armor Willie! A wimpy 40 can break ribs.

[Willie Sutton]

Where did I say he should lose his balance? I post a link to a video proving it WON'T happen and somehow that means I'm bad at physics? You might want to consider that we were making the same argument before you start resorting to insults.


You didn't, and I was not commenting thusly on your post: I was commenting on the general idea recited in the second quote (and on other posts that I have not quoted) that I posted that you can "kill", "incapacitate" "liquify internal organs" and all other such nonsense (for that is exactly what it is). Physics is Physics.

You can't put any more energy into a target than the shooter accepts as an equal and opposite force. Even soft body armor spreads out the received load to that which approximates the surface area of the contact patch between a handgun shooters hand and the grip of his firearm. Impact received approximates that of the felt recoil in the shooters hand. The inertia of the mass of the firearm mitigates this somewhat. The force projected is *exactly* the force input into the frame of the firearm at the moment of firing, less the mechanical drag of the projectile against the bore in the internal ballistics phase and the aerodynamic drag of the projectile as it slows during the external ballistics phase of the sequence. As a shooter, you do not give what you do not receive. All you do is to reduce the "contact patch size" from the skin patch against the grip of your firearm to the diameter of the projectile you place downrange.


Willie

.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by stevelyn

Mozambique Drill= 2 to the chest, one to the head. I think the term comes from the African bush wars of the 60s and 70s.

In formal firearms training environments it's called failure-to-stop. It's part of our police qualification course at 2 and 7 yards and is shot from both the holster and guard positions.

Could you expand a bit on how the drill is taught at your agency? Just saw a discussion on another forum and there's dispute as to whether it should be

2 shots COM -- Assess -- 1 shot cranium (repeat if necessary)

or

2 shots COM -- 1 shot cranium -- Assess (repeat if necessary)

[Double Naught Spy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg

it's an old video, and I'd guess thinner, more effective armor is available now.

at about 2:15, one guy is shot with a 7.62x51 rifle. At about 5:00, a guy shoots himself with a .44 magnum.

Ah yes, the Richard Davis vids. He sold a lot of defective vests to good people, knowingly, and got two of them killed.

One nice thing about the video is how Davis notes the soft tissue damage that would/could occur to his chest. So he stuffs the space between the vest and the chest with magazines. In another vid, I have seen him use phonebooks. That bit of showmanship, how he shows he can survive a gunshot and then still be effective in fighting back (bowling pins in other vids were then shot by him) was thusly a misrepresentation of the truth. It was a lie. While he was true most could fight back after being shot, it wasn't like he could. Putting all those magazines in there, used with the vest, really deadens the blow. He was not in the kind of pain he should have been because of all the extra layers.

So if the magazines he stuffs in his vests keeps his chest from being hamburger, then what we know is that a goodly amount of soft tissue is occurring even if "turned into hamburger" was also a lie in that it would be nothing like hamburger, but significant bruising. Either way and depending on the accounts you read, officers wearing vests who suffer gunshots with no penetration can suffer almost not effect to being out of the fight. Davis' tests were not realistic. They made some points but misrepresented others.

As noted, the best pistol rounds against vests aren't going to be in non-LEO hands. Tok steel core rounds can work well as can FN5.7. .223 should work fine from AR15 pistols, though it would be one of the more stupid pistols to try to carry for concealment and self defense given the loss of velocity, muzzle flash, and noise.

I believe either of those loads to the chest would do the job. Here is a Youtube video I found testing a .44 Magnum vs some expired body armor:

Great video (not!). 50% on target is not a good. The assessment that all the internal organs would be liquified is totally false. Vests are rate with deformation under the vest of the wearer to not exceed a certain level. That level does pertain, in part, to internal damage. So a vest rated for .44 mag (IIIA, for example) will definitely hurt, but not liquify anything and not kill you even with 3 shots (which used to be (is?) the standard for testing). Hanging the vest with no backing is not an appropriate test of the vest.

Somebody mentioned throwing knives. They don't do well either when thrown because of the spinning action. The point does not pass between the fibers and so is stopped.

[gschoelles]

Two in the High-chest..(like getting hit with a baseball bat even with Armor)...Still a threat? One in the head still a threat? Finish magazine into pelvic girdle... Reload

Are you carrying enough ammo?

[Nanuk]

Like everything related to self defense it is a compromise. First and foremost you need marksmanship skills to enable you to place hits in the first place. Get some good training which includes force on force. Get a Hicap pistol and learn to run it in your sleep. Magnum revolvers are excellent if you are going to invest the time and money it takes to master one. Equip your pistol with sights that allow precise shots to be taken in any lighting condition. Use enough pistol, so that when you score a hit you have a chance to stop the attacker from continuing. There is another thread about the BG taking multiple rounds and staying in the fight running now.

So to me the the most important is, Training and enough gun. Also learn the difference between cover and concealment. The back of a chair is NOT cover.

For me personally I like high power handguns, chambered in cartridges such as 357 Mag, 357 Sig, 40 S&W, 10MM, 44 Mag.. I know the 9mm, 45 ACP and the 44 Special have been effective too, but they lack the power of the others I noted, there again that is MY OPINION. I understand if you do not agree, I just do not want to start another caliber war.

[Luger_carbine]

Fast and massive is the best, but if there were going to be a compromise - I'd lean toward the fast end of the equation versus body armor.

This is a case where big and slow is not effective.

My thoughts are 44 magnum, 10mm and some 45+P with special rounds like the 68gr - 90gr rounds driven to velocities around 2375 fps.

[scrubcedar]

This is Great stuff guys. Double naught spy, is the steel core ammo (tokarev) available to the public?

[pgdion]

Mozambique Drill= 2 to the chest, one to the head

Didn't realize that's what it was called but that was going to be my answer.

My guess is this would also slant the tables to more (quantity), higher velocity, solid jacketed rounds would it not? I'm thinking 9mm or .40sw in FMJ (I still like carrying the 124gr FMJ FP myself).

[booker_t]

Anybody shot .17 Hornet against soft armor or trauma plates?

I think the hottest loading (Hornady) is 20gr running up to 3,650fps. Pretty sure they'll slip through AR500 targets that turn .45ACP into a pancake.

[buckhorn_cortez]

Why would he? The guy shooting the rifle didn't fall down... same energy is directed on both directions, fore and aft, every time a rifle is fired. If it doesn't knock down the shooter, it ain't gonna knock down the recipient.

Not true. Physics doesn't seem to be your strong suit either. There is a total difference in the velocity of the bullet and its terminal energy compared to the gun shooting it. In the case of the bullet, you are accelerating an object with a mass measured in grains over the distance of the barrel.

First - the bullet going off is not an explosion - the powder is an accelerant and pushes the bullet over the length of the barrel. So there is a time factor for both the force applied to the gun and to the bullet - and they are NOT equal.

When you examine it carefully, the time of acceleration (force applied) is different on the bullet than it is on the gun shooting it. The acceleration time for the gun is only the time from powder ignition until the bullet leaves the casing - and the gas starts expanding down the barrel. The acceleration time for the bullet is the from the time it leaves the case until it exits the barrel.

The gun outweighs the bullet by many factors and is accelerated in the opposite direction much less. For example, a .308 Winchester with a 180 grain bullet:

Muzzle velocity: 2620 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 2743 foot pounds

Now, look at the rifle:

8 lb rifle shooting the above, 180 grain bullet

Gun velocity: 11.9 feet per second
Recoil energy: 17.5 foot pounds

The reason the rifle doesn't push the shooter over is that the gun weighs more and is accelerated less for a shorter time. The force is also distributed over a greater area when compared to the smaller area of the bullet.

[Willie Sutton]

"The acceleration time for the gun is only the time from powder ignition until the bullet leaves the casing - and the gas starts expanding down the barrel."





Uhh... no. The accelleration G loads are peak when the bore velocity is peak. Bore pressure v/s bullet position in bore charts show this clearly, the peak pressure point will of course vary based on the burn rate of the propellent, etc. But pressure does not drop to zero until the bullet is long gone from the bore. Until that occurs there will be thrust rearwards which is part of felt recoil.

However, we do generally agree, and I do see your point. It's all about time. But before we go there, consider this:


The recoil pulse is present (albeit variable) until bore pressure drops to zero, which is sometime after the bullet exits the bore.

Even after the bullet reaches it's external ballistics phase, gas is being ejected from the bore until bore pressure drops to zero. This takes a discrete period of time, and during that time you can imagine it as though you are on the receiving end of a low thrust rocket engine (which is exactly what it is at that moment).The time base of the equation is the key... that goes both for the accelleration phase and the decelleration phase. One thing that soft armor does as opposed to hard armor is to lengthen the decelleration phase, thus lowering the peak loads produced. Hard armor deforms less, but the time base for decelleration of the projectile is shorter. The recipient will feel it as a sharper "crack" against the armor as opposed to a longer and softer "thump" with soft armor. Naturally we are talking milliseconds here, but in physics milliseconds are a liftime... Double the time base and the peak G loads are reduced by a huge amount. Make the time base 10X and the the forces drop off... orders of magnitude and all... and this is what your math shows.


S0: A firearm produces X Joules of energy. By definition half is projected in one direction and the other half is projected in the opposite direction. The felt result (at either end) is all based on the mass of the system in motion and the time base over which the force is spread.


Should I run the calculus? We are getting closer and closer to my professional field of expertise....



More germane to the discussion: The keys to penetration are velocity, sectional density, geometry of the projectile, and projectile hardness. Thin, fast and hard (IE: non expanding)beats the same kinetic energy level delivered thick and slow. Sabot's shedding off of a small diameter hardened penetrator is how it's done on real armor.



Willie


.

[Edward429451]

The ability to penetrate soft armor is all about tip design and not velocity. I notice the the SS-197SR FMJ, which is the civilian FN ammo is listed as FMJ but most certainly is not, having a blue polymer tip! The alternate is HP. Since when is V-Max a FMJ? LOL.No wonder they wont penetrate armor. The feds are running around with the real FMJ's!

This is easily remedied at the load bench with surplus 55 gr FMJ slugs. You wont get the high velocities of the other rounds, but you wont need it because of the true FMJ.

From the Website:

www.FiveseveNammo.com carries both civilian-legal versions of 5.7x28mm ammo - the 40-Grain SS197SR FMJ (blue tipped V-MAX) and the 28-Grain SS195LF (lead-free hollow point duty round). Questions? Call Max 802-479-0044 or 802-728-6638 or E-mail: [email protected]

http://www.fivesevenammo.com/shop/page2.html

Wiki says the AP round for the 5.7 is a 31 gr FMJ (SS190 AP) spec to 2350 FPS (10.35" BBL). This would be an easy round to make with a set of those dies for turning fired 22 cases into .224 slugs.

[testuser]

The problem is your talking about defeating body armor with ball ammo, not steel core rounds, which are illegal to own. Level IIIa is starting to get very inexpensive, about $100 for a soft armor insert, that's going to be tough to beat without steel core rounds.

5.7mm and 7.62x25 steel core rounds might penetrate a level IIIa vest. Ball ammo won't, in fact, FN and even the NRA have stated that 5.7mm is OK to sell to civilians because it isn't armor piercing.

Still, for $299 you could just about anyone could buy the Level IV plates on Amazon. A 5.56mm won't penetrate these...

http://www.amazon.com/Ceramic-plate-...+IV+body+armor

Here are the body armor specs, so you can draw your own conclusions (try page 34).

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/189633.pdf

[scrubcedar]

So are we back to the first question then? Is there legal ammo that is effective against the body armor we're most likely to see? If the answer is no
It's time to focus on drills and having an accurate enough weapon for headshots.

[Willie Sutton]

"So are we back to the first question then? Is there legal ammo that is effective against the body armor we're most likely to see?"


No.

Armor works.

If available cartidges would defeat it, they would change the armor design.


Simple, isn't it?


Willie

.

[Deaf Smith]

Actually there IS a way with conventional cartridges and handguns.

But I won't say how on the 'net.

But a hint... sabot.

Deaf

[TXAZ]

It's the guy (or girl) pulling the trigger.
If you can't hit a barn door with a .50 BMG, it's of little value. If you can consistently put 2 out of 3 in the 5 ring (or 1 in the eye) under duress, a .22 may be be more than appropriate.


Isn't there a story about once a year where highly trained professional police officers fired 30+ rounds and failed to hit a suspect an close to medium range?

[scrubcedar]

So how do we train/equip to fight the new threat? If headshots become the only effective reply to the situation what do we add to our training? Other than recommending lots of paper punching I am now completely out of my depth. Suggestions?

[stevelyn]

Could you expand a bit on how the drill is taught at your agency? Just saw a discussion on another forum and there's dispute as to whether it should be

2 shots COM -- Assess -- 1 shot cranium (repeat if necessary)

or

2 shots COM -- 1 shot cranium -- Assess (repeat if necessary)

Straight from my instructor's manual as taught by the Alaska DPS Academy where 80% of police officers statewide and all the Troopers are trained:

"Fail-To-Stop Drill- (Plan B) After hitting the assailant with a pair to the upper chest, minimum standard response to lethal threat(italics mine) you should quickly evaluate whether the shots were effective. If they were not effective, you should change plans and determine if a head shot is available. If the head is still there and you have a high probability of hitting it, you should deliver one shot to the head. Remember, the head is a difficult target to hit due to its small size and ability to turn rapidly."

So.........Two shots, assess......one to the head if the action hasn't stopped. I think in reality everyone will repeat as necessary.

It goes on to say in the next paragragh it should stop the fight if accurate, but a miss is a danger to bystanders (duh) and should not be attempted beyond 5 yards unless you are confident of making a hit.

However, in my experience due to the nature of qualifications being timed they deliver all three shots as fast as they can. The qual doesn't have an assess feature built into it. In training though I do teach 2 shots, assess, head shot and we fling lots rounds down range when doing drills for skill building. Hopefully that'll be the default in an actual event.

[scrubcedar]

Stevelyn,This sounds like most service pistols are capable of the accuracy needed. Is that your experience?