Somone tried to kick in my front door!

[Lurper]

Mr Fish got tried in the press and was basically railroaded for a justifiable shooting. There have been and are still efforts to rectify the situation. One change so far is that the burden of proof whether the shooting was in self-defense or not now lies with the prosecutor, not the defendant (duh).

In AZ, you are justified in using deadly force if you are in fear of your life or serious bodily injury. Someone assaulting you while you are armed meets that criteria. What if you are rendered unconscious? What happens to your weapon? Frankly, by the time I pull my pistol, the decision has been made that the situation warrants the use of deadly force. Otherwise displaying my weapon is a crime (brandishment). So, if the situation is serious enough to draw the pistol, it is serious enough to shoot. You are not required to retreat, even though in many cases that is the most prudent course. You are also not a hero waiting to happen. In most cases, the best thing to do in violence against others is to be a good witness.

Philosphically, legally and morally if you are justified in using deadly force it should be used. There is no reason not to. Also, LTL responses have an extensive history of failing to stop the threat. If the threat is severe enough to warrant deadly force, then the threat needs to be removed as quickly as possible. The bottom line is that you survive.

[Musketeer]

In AZ, you are justified in using deadly force if you are in fear of your life or serious bodily injury. Someone assaulting you while you are armed meets that criteria.

First, you are only justified if you can convince the authorities you were and they do not prosecute or you can convince a jury so. You must be in fear of your life as a reasonable person would be. There is the gray area that put a good man in jail. It does not matter that HE was in fear for his life, it matters that the jury of "reasonable people" did not believe so. I don't agree with the decision but that is how it goes.

I do not see that someone assaulting you while you are armed automatically escalates it to a deadly force encounter. It certainly does not automatically do so in my state. If you have an exposed gun (open carry or in hand) and someone is attacking you that case MAY be made but if you are CCW then it is very debateable. You are going to have a hard time making the case that you shot a guy for punching you becasue you thought he was going to go find your concealed gun and then kill you with it. That leap of intention is a big one and very few jurys will go for it. One would have to assume that someone who intended to hit you also intended to kill you... a big difference in the eyes of the law.

Now if you have the gun drawn at the start of a physical confrontation simply because you believed your life was in added danger by having it you have escalated the situation in the eyes of the law. No court is going to let you off with killing someone ont he grounds of "I had a gun so I had to shoot him." There is also the possiblity that the person who you shot will live to say that you drew on him with no justification and he was defending himself, or you provoked the fist fight and then drew the gun. Both are VERY REAL possibilities.

Philosphically, legally and morally if you are justified in using deadly force it should be used. There is no reason not to.

Poor Mr. Fish could give you a reason. I do not think one is morally justified in using deadly force if one can find another way to resolve the situation. Mr. Fish had no other way and I do believe was wrongly convicted. I could think of another reason besides wrongfull imprisonment... the legal expense of a defense sould cost you all your life's savings and then some. Finally... wouldn't you rather NOT kill someone if you could avoid it?

The claim that LTL has not always worked can be made just as well against lethal force. It is, in both cases, how that force is employed. Talk to an actual police trainer with regards to OC and you will probably get a better view of its effectiveness than you will get online. I did, and therefore elected to carry it as far back as when I started carrying a gun. When attacked by a dog in FL while deliverring pizza well over a decade ago I could have shot the dog but I elected to use a more approriate response. The dog came out alive and I dig not have to answer a great many questions from the police regarding the firing of a weapon inside city limits.

OC is a very effective tool, but you must know how and where to use it. That is no different than your gun. If one can put in the time to learn the hows and whys of lethal force they should put the same effort into less LTL force.

[Lurper]

First, you are only justified if you can convince the authorities you were and they do not prosecute or you can convince a jury so. You must be in fear of your life as a reasonable person would be. There is the gray area that put a good man in jail. It does not matter that HE was in fear for his life, it matters that the jury of "reasonable people" did not believe so. I don't agree with the decision but that is how it goes.

Bottom line is that he lived to try to convince the jury. The other outcome is not acceptable.

Now if you have the gun drawn at the start of a physical confrontation simply because you believed your life was in added danger by having it you have escalated the situation in the eyes of the law. No court is going to let you off with killing someone ont he grounds of "I had a gun so I had to shoot him." There is also the possiblity that the person who you shot will live to say that you drew on him with no justification and he was defending himself, or you provoked the fist fight and then drew the gun. Both are VERY REAL possibilities.

First mistake is drawing the gun without justification for use of deadly force. That should never happen and as I stated in AZ is a crime. Also in AZ, it doesn't matter who started the altercation. You are not required to allow yourself to be beaten senseless before you defend yourself. If you and your assailant are grappling and fighting for control of the weapon, killing him/her is perfectly justified or if you have been beaten to the point that you fear losing consciousness. Courts in many states have agreed.

More important are your actions before it reaches that point, but that is for another thread.

Poor Mr. Fish could give you a reason. I do not think one is morally justified in using deadly force if one can find another way to resolve the situation. Mr. Fish had no other way and I do believe was wrongly convicted. I could think of another reason besides wrongfull imprisonment... the legal expense of a defense sould cost you all your life's savings and then some. Finally... wouldn't you rather NOT kill someone if you could avoid it?

Because of my position, I will not give my personal comments on Fish's case. However, he was railroaded and by one juror's admission convicted because he used "hollowpoint bullets that are only designed to kill". Also, character witnesses testifying to the voilent tendencies of the deceased weren't allowed by the judge among other things. Legislation was passed that would have helped get Fish's case reviewed under the new law, but our governor refused to sign the bill. All in all though, the bottom line is that Fish is still alive which IMO is better than the alternative.

Again, my point is that there is no reason for civilians to carry LTL at least in AZ. The situation either calls for deadly force or does not. There is no in between. When the situation calls for it, deadly force should be delivered swiftly and surely. Anything else is asking for trouble.

[Musketeer]

Again, my point is that there is no reason for civilians to carry LTL at least in AZ. The situation either calls for deadly force or does not. There is no in between.

Belligerent drunk wants to fight... shoot him.
Dog wants to bite ... shoot it.
Stupid kid wants to show off... shoot him.

Sure, in every case you may convince the jury you were legally justified. You may be coverred under the law in your actions. Did you REALLY need to fire that weapon though? I don't think so.

I would be surprised if there is no room in AZ between no force and deadly force. Even if there is not I would want to know I did everything possible to avoid the shooting. We are going to have to agree to disagree but I think it very worth whiel that people look further than the discusion between lurper and I when making the decision of using LTL in addition to their gun.

I know from personal experience there is a place for LTL. The dog I OC'd was on the steps of a frat house I was deliverring to. Very quickly there were several angry frat boys. What is the answer... flash the gun? I don't think so. Simply keeping the OC in one hand while I deliverred the pizaa while reasuring them the dog would be fine did the trick. None of them meant to kill me, but they would have roughed me up. Am I justified in using LF against a guy I know just intends to slap me around? Not in most places (AZ may be different.) The OC solved the dog problem and it kept the frat boys at bay allowing everyone to go on with their lives.

[Lurper]

Belligerent drunk wants to fight... shoot him.
Dog wants to bite ... shoot it.
Stupid kid wants to show off... shoot him.

Your answers, not mine. In every case, walking away is the best action.

I know from personal experience there is a place for LTL. The dog I OC'd was on the steps of a frat house I was deliverring to. Very quickly there were several angry frat boys. What is the answer... flash the gun? I don't think so.

As I mentioned, "flashing" the gun is a crime in AZ. Your life is either threatened or it is not. It really is that cut and dry.

None of them meant to kill me, but they would have roughed me up. Am I justified in using LF against a guy I know just intends to slap me around? Not in most places (AZ may be different.)

The fatal flaw in that logic is assuming that they just intend to slap you around. How can one arrive at that conclusion? How do you know that they are not trained martial artists, boxers or even unarmed? So they slap you around, how do you know they aren't going to disarm you and use your weapon against you? You don't. The law does not require you to use less than lethal force. It does require you to only use lethal force when a lethal threat is present. If the threat isn't lethal, then don't use lethal force. But in your scenario, had the dog attacked you, you would have been justified to shoot it and anyone else who presented a lethal threat. Perhaps a more prudent course of action would be to retreat to your vehicle and ask them to come there before brandishing your mace (not armchair quarterbacking, just offering an alternative).

Use of non-lethal tools also opens as many legal doors as lethal force does. It can also put you at a disadvantage. If you spray or tase someone and it has no effect, they will have most likely closed the distance and be on top of you. Now the fight is much more serious.

Escape is always the most prudent course of action. My point is that LTL is just as likely to escalate the situation. The law does not require you to use it. One can argue that if you can employ a LTL tool, you still had the opportunity to escape. If however, you aren't comfortable with the thought of being forced to take someone's life and equally uncomfortable having no protection, then LTL is a viable option. It's an individual choice.

[Musketeer]

You use the LTL to facilitate escape from harm.

Getting slapped is not a lethal force encounter. Period. Shoot someone over it and you will go to jail.

Escape is not as easy as you think it is. I have talked my way out of plenty, avoided other and run away from encounters. There are times though when trunning is not an option because the drunk is between you and the door, the dog is between you and the car or other such problems.

Ask a LEO if there is such a thing as a non-lethal force encounter for a civilian.

[FLA2760]

You did GREAT.
Here is my story:

When we moved to Fl in 1997 we first rented a house to see if we wanted to buy in Fl. We were in the house like a month; Palm Coast in Flagler county pretty rural then. Anyway I am up watching the tube in the LR at about 1am. I hear a car going up and down the street slowly. I had recently purchased a Rossi .357 so my new toy was with me in the LR as I watched tv. Well the car pulls into my driveway blacked out and two big dudes get out and are talking and smoking in my driveway. I now have the Flagler county sherrif dispatcher on the line and I am saying that these guys were acting suspicious by cruising up and down the block slowly and they are now in my driveway and do not belong here! Suddenly; they are banging on my door and saying open up we want our money! I realize they must be looking for the previous tenants and I tell them that you have the wrong guy and that the cops are on the way. They shout f--K the cops your ass is ours. I yell I am armed and will shoot! They stop kicking my door and start to mumble to each other. Get this, the 911 operator that was still on the line is screaming at me to PUT DOWN MY GUN! I am like NO WAY but when your deputy's arrive I will meet them with empty hands. The guys took off. When the deputy (1) arrived it had been like 12 minutes. He later told me he had been running at about 85 mph. When his backup arrived ( another 10 minutes )they began to search the neighborhood. They stopped these guys a few blocks away peering into a house under construction. Both of them were arrested on prowling charges and one of them had a warrant for a drug case. The cops found several dagger type knives and one revolver
(loaded) with scratched off serial numbers in their truck! My wife had already taken cover in our MB with my daughter who was 4 at the time. She was under the bed at my wife's knees. My wife had the mossberg 12ga trained on the locked BR door. She would have unloaded on anyone who tried to come in! We were only a mile from interstate 95 and I guess the community was seen as easy pickings due to the few LEOs on duty on the graveyard shift. We now live clear across the state in a community that has much better response times.
Thank God for the outcome
__________________