Managed Recoil ammo for elk?

[ZeroJunk]

With all due respect, the OP is the boy's father, not you.

Second of all, this thread is about loads and ammo, not about how to bring your child up in the outdoors.

Sort of what I was thinking.

[davlandrum]

Thanks for having my back ZeroJunk and freakshow10mm.


Predator86 -

My oldest has ADHD, bad. We finally found the right combo of medications when he was about 12. Everyday, he takes 3 different meds as soon as he gets up to get him through the day. If we had not finally found the right combo, he would not even be shooting bb guns. This is part of the reason I said we would be so close together we could wear the same shirt.

As far as success rate and hard work, I can confidently say there is a much better chance where I hunt on elk, rather than deer. Hard work is always a part of hunting, and as it will be during the time when people will be heading up prior to bow season, there will be plenty of people to spread the work. Just as we help them when they get one down.

I sure do appreaciate your opinion .

[Old Grump]

My uncle took a moose with a 270 and 130 grain bullet about 40 years ago, I have a feeling the 125 gr bullet out of a 30-06 will do fine in your range.

For a fudge factor if you are worried about the bullet look at Federal Fusion Lite Low Recoil 30-06 170 gr. It only goes 2,000 fps but the heavier bullet should do a better job of getting int the boiler room of an Elk with half the recoil of a standard load. It's almost the equivalent of my 32 Win spcl with 170 gr bullets and I guarantee it has penetration.

Might be a little pricey but it would be worth it to try it against the Remington and compare accuracy and felt recoil. Shoot what the gun prefers is my usual rule but any bullet that goes within 4" of where I aim at 100 yards is going to bring home the bacon.

Congratulations to you for bringing your boy along under difficult conditions and introducing him to your sport. It might just be the thing that he can focus on. Lord knows if I hadn't grown up in the woods as a kid I would have been hell on wheels looking for trouble in a town situation. If mom would have killed me when I was a kid there wouldn't have been a court in this country who would have convicted her. Something about being in the woods with the fog coming up over the lake and all you can smell is the lake and hear the loons calling. Beat the heck out of loud music and video games. Not that we had those games back in the 40's and 50's.

[graniteob]

I would just get some loads from Freakshow10mm and get out there and practice. The barnes is a solid bullet. Even at a medium speed it penetrates well and does plenty of damage along the way. My friend has shot a couple of nice pigs with his 30-30 pistol loaded with some of those. Seemed to work very nice.


The next best would be what Grump said about the federal low recoil ammo. A 170 grain fusion is plenty of medicine for any elk. It would hold together better than the 125 grain corelokt.


Good luck to you and your son and I hope you can make it happen.

[sw282]

Grump and Federal have the right idea. 2000fps is same velocity as my 458 Win ammo. Yall know what 458s are used for. That 170gr Fusion is just the ticket for elk. The old buffalo hunters did great with a lot LESS speed then that.

[James R. Burke]

I also aggree with Mobuck.

[moosemike]

Go with the Federal Lite with the 170 grain. The Remington 125 does not give great penetration.

[davlandrum]

Thanks guys, we will give both the reloading and the federal fusions a try.

[Jack O'Conner]

I wouldn't tackle elk with any bore smaller than 6.5mm caliber. My elk rifle is .308 shooting 180 grain soft tips. I always shoot 'em twice through the chest organs. But I've also taken a few with 30-30 and 170 grain ammo. My son raves about his Marlin 35 Remington. He hunts in big timber where shots are fast and fairly close.

I feel that 125 grain bullet in 30-06 is less-than-ideal and advise against it.

Jack

[moosemike]

Nice pic Jack. That sure gets the blood pumpin'.

[cje1980]

Below is a link to a test of the 170gr Fusion load fired from a 30-30 in comparison to the 170gr Nosler Partition, also for the 30-30. That fusion bullet is the same exact bullet used in the Fusion Lite loads for 308Win and 30-06.

The load penetrated 25" of gelatin and expanded nicely. It's a good bullet and will perform well on Elk. The Fusion Lite has pretty much the same ballistics, only that it starts off 100 fps slower than the 30-30 loads. I automatically knock off 100 fps from any published velocity figures for the 30-30, since hardly anybody actually uses a 30-30 with a 24" barrel. I would keep shots at no more than 150 yards given the slow 2,000fps velocity of the Fusion Lite loads. At those ranges it will certainly get the job done. If you ask any DOW officer in Colorado they will tell you that Elk are usually found in thick timber rather than in big open spaces like you see in the magazines. I think the Magnum calibers are highly overrated. If you are a good hunter and know where tho find Elk most shots will actually be within 100-150 yards. So many of the long range calibers are actually poor performers at those ranges because the bullets have way too much impact velocity.

http://www.levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=1989

[davlandrum]

cje - Thanks for the link!

Western Oregon is dense country - I think technically it is a temperate rain forest, so long shots are not even an issue. Getting within 100 yds is not a problem (at least most of the time). I run into problems trying to cut that 100 yds down to bow range

[cje1980]

Its kind of the same thing in Colorado. A lot of people think of Colorado having a lot of open spaces but there are some very thick forests here. During hunting season the Elk and Deer leave the high mountain meadows and head downhill and hang around in the thick timber. Elk aren't dumb. You usually won't see them very close to roads or in open spaces.

I've seen so many guys hunting Deer and Elk with the big Magnums be very disappointed in bullet performance. The fact is the vast majority of shots at big game are well under 100 yards. The big Magnums only have an advantage at longer distances like.

You should be fine with the Fusion Lite ammo. You'll be hard pressed to actually find a bullet from even a 30-06 that performs better at the ranges the loading is designed for. A 170 gr 30 caliber pill is quite effective on a wide variety of medium-big size game inside of 200 yards.

Like others have said, definitely avoid the Remington stuff. I've never thought much of a 125gr 30 caliber bullet for anything other than really small deer. I wouldn't even use that stuff on Mule Deer, let alone Elk. With a load that light, you are getting into sectional density in the scale of handgun rounds.

[Jack O'Conner]

I'm very impressed with the Fusion performance. 30-30 has always had a very good reputation for straight line penetration. The trick to a fast kill with any truly large animal is to hit 'em twice in the chest. This Winchester bullet penetrated red stag from stem to stern!



I shot this large red stag 3 times with my 30-30 Winchester Legasy. Last shot wasn't necessary.

Good hunting to you.

Jack

[briandg]

My thoughts are that you should at least consider going to a 7-08 with a 140 grain bullet. In a bonded format they will give all the penetration that you will need to drop an elk, and at equal velocities, it will perform FAR better than a 125 grain 30 caliber in penetration.

IMO, larger game is a challenge to get full penetration, and I'd rather have full penetration than full expansion. Especially since you are looking at reducing velocity.

One last thought, are shotgun slugs legal? A 20 gauge slug may be an answer worth looking into. Think about it.

[davlandrum]

Well, if I had a 7mm-08, I would use that.

shotgun with slugs would be legal, but all I own is 12 gauge, and a pump at that. Having played that game back east, I would not subject someone else to it.

The point of the thread was reducing recoil with a 30-06 - not buying new guns.

[briandg]

sorry about that, with so many threads on about cartridges, I forgot that this one was restricted to a particular caliber.

I've loaded and fired numerous 30-06 loads ranging from 1,500 FPS 110 grain bullets all the way to 220 and various loads of cast in various sizes.

I believe that he will be able to deal with a 125 grain reduced load with no problem, based on my own experience with loads at that level, but I also have to admit that I've never been a small framed teenager. As a reloader, if I was creating such a load, I'd use a polymer tip bonded to initiate quick expansion, and still allow good weight retention. Such as the fusion.

Good luck with the hunt. My daughter is bipolar, and I understand how much a problem like attdef can bring to the table.

[sc928porsche]

I am a little concerned about the bullet weight and construction in the reduced recoil loads. They might work ok for deer, but elk are much thicker. You will need something that will both penetrate and expand. Generally I hunt deer with 150 and elk with 180. Of course that is just me.

The best advice I have seen here and I must agree with is to have someone load up some reduced loads using a good 150 gr bullet. There are a few good bullet designs put out by barns, hornady, sierra, and a few others. My own preference would be the sierra pro hunter.

Whatever you decide, you sound like a reasonable hunter. I am sure your hunting trip will be a success whether you down and elk or not. Enjoy!!

[ZeroJunk]

That Federal Fusion reduced recoil is 170 grains at 2000 FPS. Zeroed at 100 shows down about 4 1/2 at 150 and down 10 at 200.

I can't say that I know which would be better 125 at 2500 or 170 at 2000. Might be a wash.

[moosemike]

Ther bullet is more important than the velocity. The 170 trumps the 125 on elk.

[andrewstorm]

I learned not to flinch when i was 9,blind pig on a model 19 sw 357 mag,a year later 44 mag , then 308 win 12 ga buck hammer,150 gr muzzeloader loads,ect. practice practice practice if u cant shoot every day then every week, teach the boy how to be a man,learn him how to fit in to the mans world no sissy loads,big elk are dangerous animals,hit em hard ,and keep shooting till there down,me and my boy carry ruger old armys as backup guns,for our 50 cal smoke poles,also for all firearms season a b a r in 308 win and my son 16 carrys romainian sks for michigan deer n hogs although he can shoot the 308 equally well.my daughters 19,5 ft 4 and 117 lbs and 14, 5ft 1 96 lbs shoot all family guns and very well i might add, range time

[davlandrum]

andrew

Thanks, that was very helpful and contributed greatly to answering the question

Seriously, you did make my morning with

big elk are dangerous animals

That will keep a smile on my face the rest of the day

[.300 Weatherby Mag]

Why not a 30-06 with a muzzle break?? It would allow you to not make compromises with the ammunition and still give you the horsepower to properly dispatch an elk...

[moosemike]

big elk are dangerous animals

Since when? Who have they attacked?

[davlandrum]

.300 - not a bad idea, except I don't have any long guns with brakes, and am not really inclined to mod my -06 for what may well be a 1-time thing.

If he gets drawn (there are only est. 10 tags for this hunt), and takes to it, I will work out a deal with him to buy his own rifle - by deal, I mean give him enough hours of labor to earn the money.

But that is a long way down the road from today.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in with reasoned responses to my original question.

To the others, please at least try to read the question. I never asked what rifle or caliber to buy, I never asked anyone to judge my parenting, I never asked how tough your kids are.

Mods can lock this one if you want - got all the useful info I think I need.