40S&W Load Help

allgrainer · December 21, 2008, 11:38 AM

I sat down and loaded 100 rounds last night. I went to the local range early this morning to try them out. (Nat Forest public range) This was my first time at 40cal. Here is the recipe: Speer 155grTMJ over 7.2gr Unique, CCI-500 small pistol primer. These shot about 6 inches below point of aim at 10 yards and at 7 yards was close to the same. (over the factory loads I use) I started at the low end of what Speer #13 recommended. If I load the next batch at say 7.6gr Unique will the effect be to raise the point of impact up close to the point of aim? If this is not the direction I need to go what should I try. I measured a factory load I have good luck with and its OAL was 1.120 and that is what I set these loads at. Any help or suggestions with this?

Thanks
Allgrainer

Ranger61 · December 21, 2008, 01:22 PM

It has been my experience that lighter bullets tend to shoot lower. Increasing the velocity seems to shoot even lower. My suggestion would be to try a load with heavier bullets like 165 grain or 180 grain. The added recoil of a heavier bullet pushes the gun up while the bullet accelerates down the barrel causing the bullet to strike higher on the target.

D. Manley · December 21, 2008, 03:06 PM

Your factory load is likely heavier/slower than the 155's you've loaded up. Faster rounds print lower not, higher. To keep POI the same you'll need to keep your muzzle velocity approximately the same. I have no trouble making 165 and 180's print to the same POA but have not shot anything lighter in .40 caliber.

allgrainer · December 21, 2008, 05:40 PM

What could happen if I went below what speer recommends for the starting point for this load. Say 7.0 grains, that should slow it down a bit. Would there be any adverse effects to worry about? I have about 700 of these 155 tmj's and I would like to use them up. Or maybe I could try another powder maybe a slower burning powder

**Shane Tuttle** · December 21, 2008, 06:01 PM

What gun are you firing?

This is only anectdotal evidence, but your OAL listing is about where I like mine for my XD. My first thought is to leave this alone.

Are you in ANY way anticipating the shot? I ask to think very hard. Reason: My first thought when I was loading a cartridge for the first time was, "No problem. I'm reloading at a lower charge than factory. The recoil's going to be milder." SUBconciously, after looking back, I was a bit nervous on the other factors in play. Things like, is this going to squibb on me? Am I going to blow up my gun? Did I really check the charge in this specific round?

My shots were lower than normal. I was scratching my head and my buddy piped up. "Why were you jerking the trigger? You're usually cool as a cucumber."

I'm trying to think outside the box because I load for 155, 165, and 180 for my XD and I haven't seen this issue that you're experiencing.

Shoney · December 21, 2008, 06:09 PM

allgrainer

It is never wise to undercharge below the minimum listed load. You will probably have either a failure to cycle the slide, or the bullet will get stuck in the barrel. Worst case scenario, and it would be rare, is the low powder lays flat in the case diagnally with the high end covering the primer hole. The primer ignites the powder at the back, the flame skips over the powder in the middle and both ends burn to the middle causing a spike in prerssure.

7.2 gr Unique is a mild load for a 155. What I do to test pistol cartridge loads, is to load up 10 each starting at the minimum and working up in 0.3 gr until I arrive at max load.

AT the range I have seperate targets for each load. Using a sandbag rest, I start with the lowest charge and work up with targets at 25 yards. This way you can see how groupings go as you work up. Once I find the most accurate load, I load 10 cartridges each, by 0.1 gr each on either side of the accurate load.

Example. After having worked up in 0.3 gr increments, I find the accuracy load was at 7.8 gr. I will load 10 at 7.6, 10 at 7.7, 10 at 7.8, and 10 at 7.9. Then test.

Good Shooting!

**Shane Tuttle** · December 21, 2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

It has been my experience that lighter bullets tend to shoot lower. Increasing the velocity seems to shoot even lower. My suggestion would be to try a load with heavier bullets like 165 grain or 180 grain.

I disagree with higher velocity causing a bullet to shoot lower. I'm not saying it doesn't in your gun, just in general. Pushing the same weight bullet at a higher velocity would appear to make it shoot flatter longer.

Quote:

The added recoil of a heavier bullet pushes the gun up while the bullet accelerates down the barrel causing the bullet to strike higher on the target.

I don't agree with this, either. The bullet is long gone before the gun's motion of recoil would cause this to happen. Also, the energy of the propellant is making the bullet travel in a straight path, not up. There isn't any force that's causing energy to make the gun rise in time to affect the path of the bullet.

I would like to see where you've read this.

Quote:

What could happen if I went below what speer recommends for the starting point for this load. Say 7.0 grains, that should slow it down a bit. Would there be any adverse effects to worry about?

One of the adverse effects is that if you're using a semi-auto, it won't cycle effectively.

Shoney · December 21, 2008, 06:16 PM

allgrainer
To help with what Tuttle8 was talking about in post #5 above, go to this site.
http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pi...%20analysis%22

allgrainer · December 21, 2008, 06:35 PM

I am firing an XDm. At the range this morning it was cold and windy. I normally go to an indoor range but they are not open on Sundays. I don't shoot with a rest either. This range has a bench that you can sit at and get a good rest. This is somewhat out of my comfort zone when shooting. I had my grip on the gun while shooting and the bottom of my hands were resting on the bench. I was holding steady but I also had a half pot of coffee in me and it was cold. Looking back most shots were low. Shooting from this position could allow me to pull down on the trigger thus getting a low shot. The first couple shots I feel sure there was some anticipation as to what was going to happen. After those worked I was comfortable. I might make a trip to the other range sometime Monday and see if I get the same results. Shoney thanks for the link. You folks really got me thinking now.

**Shane Tuttle** · December 21, 2008, 06:42 PM

Keep us posted. I'm wondering if the elements are giving you grief along with coffee. Any caffeinated drink makes me have the shakes. Of course, that's me and not necessarily you.

Can you post pics?

Shoney · December 21, 2008, 07:06 PM

Regarding the question of velocity vs. bullet weight vs POI
I'm reprinting a post that fairly well covers the subject.

Quote:

Unclenick wrote on 5/20/07
A slower bullet will be in the barrel longer, giving recoil more time to elevate the barrel. This will mean higher impact at shorter ranges, but the velocity loss will mean lower impact at longer ranges (more arcing trajectory). So there isn't any one answer. It will depend on range, the mass of the gun and the bullet and how tightly you are able to hold on to the gun. With this many variables, your best bet is to try it and see what you get? In my general experience, at ranges 25 yards and under, these variables only amount to an inch or so difference in POI. For a given weight, it is too little difference to matter in practical combat shooting, but enough to make a target shooter tweak his sight settings.

Nick

C Bass · December 21, 2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

What could happen if I went below what speer recommends for the starting point for this load. Say 7.0 grains, that should slow it down a bit.

I'm shooting the same weight bullet but only Rainiers. I went down 10% under the min. load, as it states on Rainier's website, when I was working up a load and I had no issues. I don't know if this is common practice or safe with non-plated bullets but I don't know why it would be any different.

allgrainer · December 22, 2008, 05:42 PM

OK here is the update from my range trip today. Those reloads were dead on. Other than a few flyers They hit at the point of aim. I guess the elements and the coffee were messing with me pretty bad. And I only lost 3 empty cases. They went on the wrong side of the fence if you know what I mean. So I recon if I am not cold, caffeinated, or being blown around I aint to bad of a shot. Thanks to all for the input, off to the loading bench....I also shot my LCP for the first time since I got it back from the recall. The trigger is completely different and it took some adjusting. All with the exception of the first 3 rounds for adjusting to the new trigger all went to point of aim.

December 21, 2008, 03:06 PM	#3
D. Manley Senior Member Join Date: July 13, 2008 Posts: 299	Your factory load is likely heavier/slower than the 155's you've loaded up. Faster rounds print lower not, higher. To keep POI the same you'll need to keep your muzzle velocity approximately the same. I have no trouble making 165 and 180's print to the same POA but have not shot anything lighter in .40 caliber. __________________ *"Old School" ain't all bad...*

December 21, 2008, 06:09 PM	#6
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	allgrainer It is never wise to undercharge below the minimum listed load. You will probably have either a failure to cycle the slide, or the bullet will get stuck in the barrel. Worst case scenario, and it would be rare, is the low powder lays flat in the case diagnally with the high end covering the primer hole. The primer ignites the powder at the back, the flame skips over the powder in the middle and both ends burn to the middle causing a spike in prerssure. 7.2 gr Unique is a mild load for a 155. What I do to test pistol cartridge loads, is to load up 10 each starting at the minimum and working up in 0.3 gr until I arrive at max load. AT the range I have seperate targets for each load. Using a sandbag rest, I start with the lowest charge and work up with targets at 25 yards. This way you can see how groupings go as you work up. Once I find the most accurate load, I load 10 cartridges each, by 0.1 gr each on either side of the accurate load. Example. After having worked up in 0.3 gr increments, I find the accuracy load was at 7.8 gr. I will load 10 at 7.6, 10 at 7.7, 10 at 7.8, and 10 at 7.9. Then test. Good Shooting! __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

December 21, 2008, 06:16 PM	#8
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	allgrainer To help with what Tuttle8 was talking about in post #5 above, go to this site. http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pi...%20analysis%22 __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111 Last edited by Shoney; December 21, 2008 at 06:33 PM.

December 21, 2008, 06:42 PM	#10
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	Keep us posted. I'm wondering if the elements are giving you grief along with coffee. Any caffeinated drink makes me have the shakes. Of course, that's me and not necessarily you. Can you post pics? __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

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December 21, 2008, 11:38 AM	#1
allgrainer Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 45	40S&W Load Help I sat down and loaded 100 rounds last night. I went to the local range early this morning to try them out. (Nat Forest public range) This was my first time at 40cal. Here is the recipe: Speer 155grTMJ over 7.2gr Unique, CCI-500 small pistol primer. These shot about 6 inches below point of aim at 10 yards and at 7 yards was close to the same. (over the factory loads I use) I started at the low end of what Speer #13 recommended. If I load the next batch at say 7.6gr Unique will the effect be to raise the point of impact up close to the point of aim? If this is not the direction I need to go what should I try. I measured a factory load I have good luck with and its OAL was 1.120 and that is what I set these loads at. Any help or suggestions with this? Thanks Allgrainer

December 21, 2008, 01:22 PM	#2
Ranger61 Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2004 Posts: 213	It has been my experience that lighter bullets tend to shoot lower. Increasing the velocity seems to shoot even lower. My suggestion would be to try a load with heavier bullets like 165 grain or 180 grain. The added recoil of a heavier bullet pushes the gun up while the bullet accelerates down the barrel causing the bullet to strike higher on the target.

December 21, 2008, 05:40 PM	#4
allgrainer Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 45	What could happen if I went below what speer recommends for the starting point for this load. Say 7.0 grains, that should slow it down a bit. Would there be any adverse effects to worry about? I have about 700 of these 155 tmj's and I would like to use them up. Or maybe I could try another powder maybe a slower burning powder

December 21, 2008, 06:01 PM	#5
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	What gun are you firing? This is only anectdotal evidence, but your OAL listing is about where I like mine for my XD. My first thought is to leave this alone. Are you in ANY way anticipating the shot? I ask to think very hard. Reason: My first thought when I was loading a cartridge for the first time was, "No problem. I'm reloading at a lower charge than factory. The recoil's going to be milder." SUBconciously, after looking back, I was a bit nervous on the other factors in play. Things like, is this going to squibb on me? Am I going to blow up my gun? Did I really check the charge in this specific round? My shots were lower than normal. I was scratching my head and my buddy piped up. "Why were you jerking the trigger? You're usually cool as a cucumber." I'm trying to think outside the box because I load for 155, 165, and 180 for my XD and I haven't seen this issue that you're experiencing. __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

December 21, 2008, 06:35 PM	#9
allgrainer Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 45	I am firing an XDm. At the range this morning it was cold and windy. I normally go to an indoor range but they are not open on Sundays. I don't shoot with a rest either. This range has a bench that you can sit at and get a good rest. This is somewhat out of my comfort zone when shooting. I had my grip on the gun while shooting and the bottom of my hands were resting on the bench. I was holding steady but I also had a half pot of coffee in me and it was cold. Looking back most shots were low. Shooting from this position could allow me to pull down on the trigger thus getting a low shot. The first couple shots I feel sure there was some anticipation as to what was going to happen. After those worked I was comfortable. I might make a trip to the other range sometime Monday and see if I get the same results. Shoney thanks for the link. You folks really got me thinking now.

December 22, 2008, 05:42 PM	#13
allgrainer Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 45	OK here is the update from my range trip today. Those reloads were dead on. Other than a few flyers They hit at the point of aim. I guess the elements and the coffee were messing with me pretty bad. And I only lost 3 empty cases. They went on the wrong side of the fence if you know what I mean. So I recon if I am not cold, caffeinated, or being blown around I aint to bad of a shot. Thanks to all for the input, off to the loading bench....I also shot my LCP for the first time since I got it back from the recall. The trigger is completely different and it took some adjusting. All with the exception of the first 3 rounds for adjusting to the new trigger all went to point of aim.