Home defense, .357 vs. 12 gauge?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Dear Readers:

I have deleted a slew of posts that were obviously trolling.

NO need to continue to debate these. The poster was appropriately dealt with.

[Brit]

A little reality to 223 fired indoors! I had a Steyr AUG, with the Mil Spec firing pin. (I used to work for Steyr)

As I was having some extractor problems, for some reason, I was dropping the bolt, to watch the extractor claw lock onto a cartridge, one that was already in the chamber? Stupid? Even with out the piston!!!!!! No excuse.

The mil spec round went through my bed, hit the tile underneath, blew it to bits, the pieces cut the long bedroom curtain like a knife! This was a Canadian IVI round. Under the tile was concrete, an apartment. Only tiny bits of copper I found, it blew up.

My ears rang till I went to sleep. Next morning, fine, I was lucky.

It was LOUD!

[Vacavillains]

Some good info, thanks everyone!

Just wanted to provide info for one commen question:

I have a 12 Pump in room and my 1911 is my bedside quick access gun. As I brought up in another post, my wife prefers hers to be a wheel gun and that's where the .357 came up.

The decibel information was great, I hadn't seen that before.

Not sure how I feel about being "dealt with", but yes my question was answered so trolls can go home.

Thanks.

[MarkCO]

Most of the articles we read in the gun rags are marketing. Gun writers, like politicians create problems then concoct solutions for $. People read the gunrags for entertainment for the most part. The writers need to create discussion and buzz about products to get the advertising dollars and the guns to write about.

Here is an article (in a gun rag) that gives Kyle Lamb's answers on the subject of a HD weapon: http://www.americanrifleman.org/arti...perts-opinion/

Some may discount Lamb, but I have always found him to be honest about his opinions which are not based on the monetary gain like many of the other "popular" guys with their runway appearances, TV shows and books.

There is an adage about the pistol is used to fight your way to a long gun, however it appears many take that out of context. The pistol is a defensive weapon, not an offensive weapon. By its very nature, the pistol is what most people will carry concealed...out in public. The opportunity to fight your way to a long gun may not exist for a CCW holder, but in the house at 2am...what do you pick up? It is going to be the most powerful or what you are the most comfortable with? Is a shotgun more effective at stopping a higher percentage of 100 different scenarios than a handgun or an AR? Maybe. Lamb's last answer, to me is the take-away.

I shoot a good bit in a variety of circumstances...hunting, 3Gun, USPSA, training with SWAT officers and snipers. When I get to choose which firearm to shoot targets with at a 3Gun match, I choose the one that gives me the best chance of hitting as many targets on the first shot in the shortest amount of time...more often than not, the pistol wins over the shotgun and the AR wins over the pistol. I am also more comfortable with the AR all things considered and it offers greater range and number of rounds. A pistol is more concealable if i were to end up outside, or at a door with an unknown person outside. Slugs to body armor will deliver more energy and a greater chance of injury or incapacitation than a handgun. It is all trade-offs and the debate will not ever be settled. Choose wisely based on facts, skill level, your situation and hope it never gets tested. If you can add an option to first choice, sure, do so. But whatever you choose, take a class, shoot competition and practice as often as you can. Proficiency with one gun is better than 50 guns you have never shot!

[Dragline45]

Did it permanently affect your hearing. ?

The .357 round did, my left ear rings to this day and I suffer from high frequency hearing loss. Although the 9mm had no lasting effects, I had a hearing test a couple months after and compared to the year prior there was no difference.

As I said before if you are in a life threatening situation in your own house, the noise of whatever firearm you use will be the last of your concerns.

That's besides the point. Sure at that time you wont be thinking about how loud the gun will be, but that doesn't mean you cant take precautions so that when/if you do need to use a gun in your home you can mitigate the amount of damage done. As I said before, this is the reasons I no longer use a .357 for home defense or carry, and one of the reasons I use a full size 9mm as my bedside gun.

[Tinbucket]

Don't depend on any round not penetrating the whole of the house, the way they are thrown together these days.
Way our home is laid out, wouldn't hit any other bedroom. Lose a tv and refrigerator maybe.
I though considerable about this and reinforcing walls, if I built the home or had it built again.
Couple sheets of 1in thick plywood , extra on interior walls will stop hollow points in 38 and buck except steel buck maybe.
There is probably a study somewhere, on this subject.
Brick interior or poured concrete walls would seem the best.
Poured walls are a big thing in some areas.
Handling a shotgun, while in bed or around the furniture isn't the greatest idea.
I think a handgun you are proficient with, and hollow points, will be a better idea.
The .22 perhaps too. Just about anybody gets shot is going to be less of a threat or dead.
Right at the moment I would go with the .38 or 9mm or any of the guns in the house, with hollow points.
Hit a man in the arm with a .357 hollow point he loses the arm. The 38 just about as much depending on velocity and bullet weight.
Hit anyone, in the torso ,with .357 or any other, with hollow points, chances, of survival are slim and he goes down now. imo

[Dragline45]

Originally Posted by Tinbucket

Hit a man in the arm with a .357 hollow point he loses the arm. The 38 just about as much depending on velocity and bullet weight.
Hit anyone, in the torso ,with .357 or any other, with hollow points, chances, of survival are slim and he goes down now. imo

You will not lose an arm if shot by a .357....

Getting gut shot with a .357 will not automatically kill you or even drop someone like you see in the movies...

Despite the myths, the .357 is not a magic bullet by any means, and compared to rifle rounds it's marginal at best. It will not drop a man with one shot, and will not crack the engine block of a Chevy.

There are stories of people taking cylinders full of .357 to the chest or stomach and lived to tell about it.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Vacavillains

Not sure how I feel about being "dealt with", but yes my question was answered so trolls can go home.

He wasn't referring to you, he was referring to the person who was trolling.

[Dragline45]

Deleted

[bandaid1]

OP- Every houses layout is different, so that's something that I will not comment about since I can't see yours. With the choices you listed (a 1911 or pump shotgun) and if I could only take one(otherwise I take both), it would be the Shotgun. A handgun will work, but a shotgun will work better. I also have a shotgun and a few 1911's and 357's and 9mm and 38's.... with the layout of my home and where my loved ones are, my shotgun makes the best choice, in fact I could probably use a rifle.

All guns are loud. I don't worry about such things if my life or family is in jeopardy. In a life or death encounter, I hope I live long enough to bitch about the ringing in my ears.

[44 AMP]

You will not lose an arm if shot by a .357....

Actually, you might.

I won't say its likely, but it is possible.

It will not drop a man with one shot, and will not crack the engine block of a Chevy.

The one person I have seen shot with a .357 stayed on his feet for approximately 30 seconds, and then fell. He was hit in the shin!

I don't know about cracking the engine block of a Chevy, but I do know the .357 will absolutely shatter 17cm of bone, and I have (somewhere) the X-rays to prove it! No piece of the bone was larger than 1/4" to 3/8" along the bullet path.

According to the doctors, if the bullet had hit as little as 1/4" away from where it did they would have been forced to amputate.

Lose the limb from a .357 Mag hit? it could happen

And FYI, the hit I'm talking about was a 160gr SWC driven by a case full of H110. Unsure if a 125gr JHP in the same spot and angle would have been "better" or "worse".

[Dragline45]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Actually, you might.

I won't say its likely, but it is possible.

No doubting that, but it's not as clear and cut as the statement I responded to which was

"Hit a man in the arm with a .357 hollow point he loses the arm. The 38 just about as much depending on velocity and bullet weight."

It's more likely you will suffer nerve and muscle damage than actually losing your entire arm. It also reminded me of my old boss who told me that a .45 will literally take your arm off

The one person I have seen shot with a .357 stayed on his feet for approximately 30 seconds, and then fell. He was hit in the shin!

According to the doctors, if the bullet had hit as little as 1/4" away from where it did they would have been forced to amputate.

Lose the limb from a .357 Mag hit? it could happen

Yikes, I know how much it hurts to get whacked in the shin with a baseball, getting it shattered by a .357 round I don't think I would have even lasted 30 seconds.

Again no doubt that a single shot from a .357 can drop a man in his tracks, but ever since that Marshall and Sanow study which is inherently flawed, some people are under the impression that the .357 is a magic one shot stop bullet which it's not. Also no doubting that getting shot by anything can cause you to lose a limb, but being a .357 won't make it any more likely to happen.

[Gunfixr]

You did not mention in the op your spouse prefers a wheelgun. So, yes, if she wants a 357, and will be more effective with the 357 over the 1911, by all means get her one. If its a short gun, she may not like the recoil, in which case you can simply run 38spl or 38+ps in it.
Any of these versions, in a good jhp, will do.
If you can find decent shells, your 16ga will do just fine. It will make a fist sized hole at room distance, just like a 12 or a 20 ga.
You dont really have to have buckshot. Any heavier shot will suffice. A good high brass load, like remington express or similar, in a #4, #5, or maybe #6 will do. Some #2 would be better. The smaller shot is lighter per pellet, and will dissipate more quickly. Still blow right through a wall, but go likely go through less of them. Dont go too light, heavy clothing, such as heavy winter coats or leather, can dissipate bird shot (#7, #8) too quickly, and not give much penetration to the tissue underneath.

And yes, it is quite easy to miss with a shotgun, even, maybe especially, at close range.

[dakota.potts]

Only problem is what I want is not legal. I want a sawed off shotgun and that's against the law. I'm not sure I want to take a chances legally with one. that being said, for now we'll settle for our 357's with lasers.

Not necessarily illegal. The above is not classified as a shotgun because the legal definition of a shotgun is one designed to be fired from the shoulder. A firearm which is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and is 26" or more in overall length is a completely legal "firearm" not under NFA purview. I believe Black Aces have barrels as short as 8.5" while maintaining this length.

They can never have had a stock from the factory, so you must either build one from a virgin shotgun receiver, buy another "firearm" (such as the Mossberg Pistol Grip Only which are checked as "other" on the form 4473), or by one from the manufacturer such as Black Aces, who charge a pretty penny for it.

[FairWarning]

Originally Posted by Dragline45

What you are referring to is auditory exclusion, but just because your brain didn't register the shot doesn't mean that it wont damage your hearing. My ENT specifically said that auditory exclusion does absolutely nothing to protect your ears it is 100% mental. So it is absolutely not a moot point, as I posted earlier if I can limit the amount of damage done to my already damaged ears but still use a suitable round I will, which is one of the reasons my bedside gun is a full size 9mm.

Agreed. If you can survive with minimal hearing damage, or survive and be deaf, why would you choose to be deaf??!!!! I have either a 9mm or .45 full size on standby at my bedside. Full house .357 loads are recreational devices of mass destruction for me, not something I would shoot indoors!!

[Tinbucket]

As regards post no 57 not referring to any magic of .357. Just waht I observed with a hollow point.
Mid torso hit with hollow point is devestating. .44 or more so.

[Brit]

If the prior mentioned Lady of the house prefers a Revolver, a 148g target .38 Spl, factory load would be fine in a house.

First off, a flat point (splat) less recoil/report. Hearing loss, not half as much as a .357.

[TimSr]

You will not lose an arm if shot by a .357....

Not necessarily, but certainly possible. There are enough 3 legged deer to make that point.

Despite the myths, the .357 is not a magic bullet by any means, and compared to rifle rounds it's marginal at best. It will not drop a man with one shot, and will not crack the engine block of a Chevy.

Again, there's about a 50/50 chance

There are stories of people taking cylinders full of .357 to the chest or stomach and lived to tell about it.

I've heard those stories. One was called "The Terminator". Another was called "Robocop".

You can be sitting in a hospital ER, and if somebody puts 6 holes all the way through your chest with anything, they won't be able to plug the holes fast enough to save you.



As for shotgun, the key to shotguns being a safe, very letheal, yet non-pentration round is to skip the buck shot and use #4, #5, or #6 small game shot. Unless your rooms are 150ft across, 0 or 00 buck is not any more lethal for a close range direct hit.

[MarkCO]

As for shotgun, the key to shotguns being a safe, very letheal, yet non-pentration round is to skip the buck shot and use #4, #5, or #6 small game shot.

I guess someone had to go there...Unless you are using cut shells, birdshot is worthless past some distance and while messy up close, it is not a reliable stopper. Do some homework regarding terminal ballistics, specifically related to birdshot gunshot wounds and the fallacy of your belief will be evident.

[AverageJo]

Just use your 45 and get a suppressor. That's what I use and it's fine.

[TimSr]

Do some homework regarding terminal ballistics, specifically related to birdshot gunshot wounds and the fallacy of your belief will be evident.

If your homework consisted of shooting many different critters with shotgun at many different ranges over 3 or 4 decades, it might shine a little light on the fallacies one can pick up on the internet.

[psalm7]

I remember one day on a skeet range one shooter fires a 3" mag # 8 one single #8 shot hits another shooter in the neck 150 yds away after rainbowing to get to him . It did not break the skin but knocked him to the gorund leaving a bright red whelp . Nothing to do with home defence but from point blank to 10 feet what do you think the result would be if someone was shot dead center of their face with a cheap low brass 12 ga load of #8 or #71/2 . At 30 yards if someone gets the drop on a armed home invader in their yard and gives them a blast from a good field load hitting them in the chest or head the fight pretty much over it could take another round , chances are good the bg may not die but he could . One true story is a homeowner in Chattanooga TN was having trouble with a creeper/peeping tom bothering his family . He took his old Ithaca 37 and confronted the creeper one night the tango raised a knife and charged . One shot and knife and the bg's right hand disapeared . No charges filed .
Having said the above my preffered weapon of choice is a Ruger Black Hawk .357 Mag loaded with Win Silver tip HP's and Mini 14 with 30 rds of FMJ's . I do keep a Rem 870 Tact handy and use 00 Buck in it .

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by psalm7

I remember one day on a skeet range one shooter fires a 3" mag # 8 one single #8 shot hits another shooter in the neck 150 yds away after rainbowing to get to him . It did not break the skin but knocked him to the gorund leaving a bright red whelp .

Even a full close-range blast from a shotgun won't knock someone down from the force alone, not unless the person is very light and already off balance. And there's no possible way that a single #8 pellet would be able to knock anyone down.

The person in your story probably fell to the ground from the psychological reaction of being shot, but he definitely wasn't physically knocked down from it.

[kilimanjaro]

A guy down the street where I once lived goofed up and fired his shotgun, using buckshot, inside his house. The shot penetrated both sides of an interior wall and wrecked his washing machine on the other side, as well as ruining the plumbing in the wall. A couple of pellets made it through the washer and into the wall on the opposite side of the laundry room. Fortunately, it wasn't laundry day so no one was hit.

His wife got a new washer and dryer set out of it, they have to match, you know, and new paint in both rooms, then the rest of the house. Hubby didn't have much to say about it.

I helped him put a floor drain in the laundry room, just in case, he said. The flooring needed taken up and redone, too, from the water damage.

[TimSr]

Even a full close-range blast from a shotgun won't knock someone down from the force alone, not unless the person is very light and already off balance.

Guess that kind of makes those LEO bean bags useless then.