Hard hitting .45 Colt Loads

[Nathan]

I agree the Blackhawk Bisley is the best recoil absorbing design. It soaks up a lot of recoil pointing that barrel straight up!

[QuarterHorse]

I've had my eyes out for a Bisley Hunter for a bit now in 45 Colt.

[Pathfinder45]

A 250-ish grain cast bullet atop a full case of blackpowder is no slouch either.

Every 45 Colt enthusiast ought to try a box of real black powder ammo in their 45's at least once in their life. They are a lot more powerful than all those so called, "Cowboy", loads....... I don't much care for W-296/H-110 for the 45 Colt. It's true that those two powders will take you to the maximum performance you can expect from the cartridge. But it's like all or nothing, go large or go home. You can't back off from the maximum charge much at all before ignition can be inconsistent. I much prefer AA-9 for upper level loads; it takes me as far as I want to go. It would probably be the best high performance powder within the limitations of Colt SAA too. IMR-4227 is also more flexible than H-110. I have also tried Hercules 2400 but in my limited experience with it, it had terrific muzzle flash when I used it with Hornady 240 grain JHP bullets. In these days of shortages we might have to make substitutions in powders if we run out of our favorites.

[rclark]

Brian Pearce has an excellent article in the latest Handloader on loading the new Lipseys 45 Colt on the 357 frame. Keeping loads to 23,000, he developed loads around the 280 RCBS Keith style, BH of 15 for a velocity of 1048. His son shot a treed Blackie 6x at 40 yards. The bear was dead at the third shot and all bullets blew right through the chest with a couple of 3" exits.

Yep. Good article! And notice ... not jacketed bullets either nor ultra hand hurting zippy . Just heavy and slow (relatively) ....

Every 45 Colt enthusiast ought to try a box of real black powder ammo in their 45's at least once in their life.

Absolutely! I always have a box of BP loads ready to roll for my original Vaquero when I get the whim.... Smokey fun and pack a punch! Triple-7 load zips the 250s out at around 900fps and BlackHorn 209 around 800fps. Haven't got a hold of any 'real' BP yet!

[Pathfinder45]

A well packed, compressed load of fffG black powder will launch a 255 grain cast bullet at around 950-1,000 fps, depending on barrel length. It's similar in power to 9.5 grains of Unique but the blast, smoke and smell will put a wider grin on your face. I acquired a vintage WRA & Co. 45 Colt black powder round. It was very old. I didn't know it was a black powder round until I disassembled it. I carefully scraped out the powder and weighed it, finding 38 grains of densely compacted powder. The bullet was flat based, not hollow based and the base was engraved by the compressed powder. The powder was compressed to a solid hard mass into the brass, "balloon-head", case. The powder and primer were still good after more that a century. So of course I had to load some of my own to see what I missed out on. It was a very interesting experiment. I even got some old balloon head cases in order to pack as much powder in as possible.

[zxcvbob]

A well packed, compressed load of fffG black powder will launch a 255 grain cast bullet at around 950-1,000 fps

Anybody tried Hodgdon's 777? I know it's expensive, but I picked up a pound at Walmart in the clearance aisle for $7 a couple of years ago. Haven't gotten around to using it because I've mostly been focusing on .38 and .223 lately.

I figure a slightly-compressed load under a 250-ish grain cast bullet? Also might try it in .357 Magnum (because it'll hold more than a .38), similarly loaded with a soft lead bullet.

Do you need to use special lube with that stuff, like real BP; beeswax mixed with Crisco or animal fat?

[rclark]

zxcvbob, if you had read my post above ... I do use 777 ... or triple-7 .

I found 23g (by weight) of 777 under the 250g RNFP is a good load.

23.0g 777 FFFg (or FFg), 250g RNFP, CCI-300, 919 fps, 10 SD, 35 ES, 18 shots.

I tried 22 and 24g, but 23g shot the best.

One thing nice about 777 and Blackhorn 209 is you can use the same powder measure as for smokeless powder. Also load by weight instead of volume. By volume is how you would normally load BP.... Of course in a cartridge as long as there is no air space you are good to go with a little compression. Also no special lube needed. Just use the same lead bullets that you use for smokeless!

[Darto]

@ zxcvbob

Thanks, I will try that Herco 255 load, as soon as my shipment of Herco arrives... I do have a regular Blackhawk which is strong enough....

[zxcvbob]

zxcvbob, if you had read my post above ... I do use 777 ... or triple-7 .

I guess you did. Maybe that's what gave me the idea, who knows. (notice what time I posted that; I hadn't have any coffee yet)

[James K]

I have restrained myself, but every time I see the threat title "Hard Hitting .45 Colt Loads" I feel like asking just what are "soft hitting" .45 Colt loads?

So now I have.

Jim

[wyobohunter]

I'd consider trail boss loads to be relatively soft hitting.
I get your point; you wouldn't want to get hit with any 45 Colt load.

Either you are being a rabble rouser or honestly don't understand that all is relative in the world of cartridge comparison. Loads for a Colt SAA are pretty soft hitting compared to "Ruger only" loads, which in turn are pretty soft compared to 454 Casull etc etc.

[Poindexter]

I am glad to see the side conversation on black powder loads, and the side channel on light hitting as well.

My opinion, the 1873 45 Colt load of 250-255 grain bullet at 800-1000fps muzzle, is, among all handgun cartridges before during or since a heavy hitting handgun load.

I think of "light" 45Colt loads as the sort of stuff I have to load to go shoot at steel plates with the 1911 owners, ~230gr at ~750fps depending on your local range rules.

I think the 270SAA bullet is a great bullet and a legitimate heavy load in any .45Colt. I own a Vaquero and a Redhawk, both in .45 Colt and though I can go where other .45 Colts fear to tread, I personally don't need anything more powerful than the 270SAA at about 900fps unless I am climbing mountains out of interior Alaska into white bear or brown bear country.

Someone here has the signature quote, slow heavy bullet/dead bug/windshield, with which I agree.

As far as black powder loading .45Colt, please bring it. I loaded up about 30 rounds using a substitute (Pyrodex I think?).

Of all the fun things I can think of to do with my clothes still on, burning black powder in .45 Colt cases is in my top five lifetime. If you aren't feeling it just yet, go try it on July fourth.

Last time, the first time, my bullet diameter was a poor fit with my bore diameter, but I got that taken care of.

My plan is to use fire formed brass neck sized just enough to get good bullet pull, but still fat enough at the head end to minimize blowby.

Though I have a more BP friendly lube now, I am going to make lube cookies anyway. I have been using a homemade mix of 45-45-10% by weight beeswax-Crisco-oliveoil this winter. I find it works great down to -30dF, even when I leave my Redhawk and some loaded ammunition in the tool box in my truck bed outdoors for several days. Below -30dF, I am not hunting; so I haven't done much testing below that.

Last time I made a batch of lube I poured the hot liquid into a cookie sheet lined with tin foil. Once it cooled I have dozens and dozens of cookies ready to be cut out if I need them- but they aren't all "exactly" the same thickness.

I am a little squeamish on cookie thickness v- charge density. I am going to run these through the Redhawk, so I got some safety margin, but I am thinking about picking up an SAA clone, so I kinda want to get it right.

The BP substitute I have is one of the Hodgdon line, I remember they wanted somewhere between zero air space between bullet and powder, down to 10% compression on the powder once the bullet was seated.

I figure if I use all the same brass trimmed all the same length and the same bullet and the same powder charge I am still going to have some variation in powder compression since my cookies are home made.

Part of me is saying I might be overthinking this.

I will say if you decide to try it, load up 50 or 100 of them, you wont regret it. The chore of cleaning the gun will be the same pain in the neck if you light off one or light off 75. I bet $20 the first time you see that spark shot cloud and that luxuriously thick black plume of smoke coming out both the muzzle and the freshly emptied cylinder your going to feel a connection to a different time. In a good way I mean, this is cool.

[newfrontier45]

The second is his sneering at Elmer Keith's caution on .45 Colt cases. He seems to be ignorant of the fact that at the time Keith was writing, many factory cartridge cases were still of the "balloon head" type, which was a lot weaker than the true solid head case made in the U.S. today.

I can assure you that Linebaugh is ignorant of very little, nor is he "sneering" at Elmer Keith. Our sport owes a great debt to Elmer Keith and few understand this better than John. I disagree with a lot of his views of the .44Mag but you won't find anyone on this board more knowledgeable on this subject than John. He is making the point that Keith blamed the weak balloonhead .45 case for the sixgun's failure. When the brass case is only a gasket, it is the cylinder that must contain the pressure. It was the blackpowder era, military surplus Colt SAA that failed, not the case. It is widely accepted that it was Keith's words on this subject that started the myth that .45Colt cases are weak. I'm a big proponent of Keith and his work but this is a rare instance where he got it wrong.

[James K]

I suppose I should know not to make an attempt at humor with humorless people who are dedicated to the idea of taking guns and ammunition to the extreme.

I apologize, and hope all the "hammer in more powder" folks stay in one piece.

Jim

[newfrontier45]

That was an attempt at humor? I'm a humorless person for not seeing the humor in this post??? Very strange.

The second is his sneering at Elmer Keith's caution on .45 Colt cases. He seems to be ignorant of the fact that at the time Keith was writing, many factory cartridge cases were still of the "balloon head" type, which was a lot weaker than the true solid head case made in the U.S. today. (Some cases made in other countries still use a balloon head or modified balloon head to save brass. They are perfectly OK for factory loads, but caution is needed for hot handloads.)

I apologize, and hope all the "hammer in more powder" folks stay in one piece.

That's a rather odd statement to make as well. For we have very reliable and well-proven data to abide.

...people who are dedicated to the idea of taking guns and ammunition to the extreme.

Loading the large frame Ruger .45Colt to 32,000psi has the same safety margin as loading a .44Mag to industry standard pressures. That's not exactly what I would call "extreme".

[James K]

Like I said, people without a sense of humor.

Jim

[zxcvbob]

Loading the large frame Ruger .45Colt to 32,000psi has the same safety margin as loading a .44Mag to industry standard pressures. That's not exactly what I would call "extreme".

I'm not so sure about that. I keep mine well below 30 kpsi. That's still a handful.

[newfrontier45]

Did you read the Linebaugh article? The guns are proven, through destruction testing, to be 80% as strong as the same gun in .44Mag. So they are loaded to 80% of .44Mag pressures. Which at the time, was 40,000psi, which is not a strain for Rugers. That is a 100% safety margin.

Like I said, people without a sense of humor.

Calling into question the credibility of an industry legend is no joking matter.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by newfrontier45

...Calling into question the credibility of an industry legend is no joking matter....

Nonetheless, Elmer Keith blew up some guns in the course of his experimentation.

Originally Posted by newfrontier45

...they are loaded to 80% of .44Mag pressures. Which at the time, was 40,000psi,...

SAAMI maximum average pressure for the .44 Magnum is 36,000 psi.

[newfrontier45]

Nonetheless, Elmer Keith blew up some guns in the course of his experimentation.

Elmer Keith blew up ONE sixgun but the industry legend we're talking about is John Linebaugh, who was referencing that one sixgun in his article.

SAAMI maximum average pressure for the .44 Magnum is 36,000 psi.

Which at the time, was 40,000psi, which is not a strain for Rugers. That is a 100% safety margin.

The guns were tested to destruction at known pressures, the safety margin is 100%.

[Sarge]

I started loading the 45 Colt heavy with 325 LBTs and H110 powder, back when the first Ruger Bisley's came out. Over the years I've played with a lot of bullets and powder. I have yet to find a single document that better represents my experience in this matter, than Linebaugh's 'Dissolving the Myth' article. If you look at his personal loads, you will pretty much have mine.

**DANGER Will Rogers, heavier-than-book loads follow!!**

My personal loads include only 3 loads that I have settled on for all my handgun shooting. All are safe in Rugers and have been recommended to hundreds of shooters, All report good results and accuracy.
Powder Gr. Bullet Velocity Use
WW 231 8 gr. 260 cast 900 fps defense/plinker/big game
HS 6 13 gr 260 cast 1050 fps big game
HS 6 13 gr 310/320 cast 1000 fps big game
H-110 24 260 cast 1280 fps big game
H-110 24 310/320 cast 1250 fps big/dangerous game
http://www.customsixguns.com/writing...g_the_myth.htm

I run a little less 231 and a 255 RNFP in my bulk load.

I substitute a 255 SWC or Hornady's 250 grain XTP bullet in the HS6 load- perfect medium load.

I run a 335 grain Keith in my heavy load, usually with 1/2 grain less of W296 powder because I have found 296 to be a bit more consistent than 110.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by newfrontier45

...80% of .44Mag pressures. Which at the time, was 40,000psi,...

Nope. The article refers to a pressure of 40,000 CUP (copper units of pressure). That is not the same as psi (pounds per square inch).

[newfrontier45]

From another Linebaugh article:

"The loads listed in the accompanying tables are safe in ALL RUGER single action revolvers. The .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk is approximately 85% as strong as the Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44Magnum caliber. Industry specs on the .44 Magnum is 40,000 psi maximum, NOT TO EXCEED 43, 500 ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM. The industry will stand behind their guns to this MAXIMUM pressure in factory loads. ( Most companies will not honor warranties if handloads are used.)

Lets give them the benefit of the doubt and hold our loads to 85% of the 40,000 level they prefer. This still allows us to use up to 34,000 class loads which is a safe working pressure in the Ruger .45 Colt. It is as safe as the .44 Magnums 40,000 psi Maximum recommended level. I have shot hundreds of proof-type loads in the Rugers in .45 caliber, even going as far as purposely destroying some cylinders with overloads. We know just how strong they are. They will take 34,000 psi for two lifetimes with little care. At this pressure level you are working with about a 100% safety factor. Sure, they will stand a little more, but I don't really care. A .45 Colt with honest 30,000/34,000 psi loads "in the gun" have about a 35% advantage over the best .44 Magnum loaded accordingly."

Now, if anyone present thinks they know more about this than Linebaugh, I suggest you campaign against these loads by contacting Hodgdon for their "Ruger only" loads coincide with John's. Also work against Hornady for he used their testing facilities.

[zxcvbob]

Originally Posted by me

I'm not so sure about that. I keep mine well below 30 kpsi. That's still a handful.

Originally Posted by newfrontier45

Did you read the Linebaugh article? The guns are proven, through destruction testing, to be 80% as strong as the same gun in .44Mag. So they are loaded to 80% of .44Mag pressures. Which at the time, was 40,000psi, which is not a strain for Rugers. That is a 100% safety margin.

I've read it several times, although not recently.

You can load your Blackhawk to 65 kpsi if you want (safety margins are for sissies.) I keep mine under 30k. My best loads are usually around 25000 as estimated by QuickLoad, and the resulting data is remarkably similar to published data for the .44M but with a slightly heavier bullet -- the pressure is lower because of the difference in case volume.

[rclark]

You can load your Blackhawk to 65 kpsi if you want (safety margins are for sissies.)

Well ... I wouldn't . Since the Linebaugh BH cylinder tested blew at 60,000CUP. Absolute safety margin then is around 30,000CUP. I believe Linebaugh said 32,000CUP was his estimated limit. How that 'exactly' translates back to PSI is another question... I like to stick around 20,000PSI (Tier 2 loads and given by Brian Pearce). Enough for this man and what I need done or ever need to do....

Oh, and the correlation of CUP vs PSI is answered here : http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf