Tom Clancy's hijacked airliner

[Redworm]

damn, triple post

[JohnKSa]

If someone can describe how allowing guns on school property can help then I'd like to hear it.

Not only can it help, it has already helped. Here are some examples

http://www.rkba.org/users/myrick.txt
http://www.gunweek.com/2004/college0520.html
Perhaps the most significant was the Jan. 16, 2002 shooting spree at the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, VA. A Nigerian student named Peter Odighizuwa went on a rampage, gunning down six people, three of them fatally, before other students stopped him. The media appears to have deliberately omitted the fact that two of those students, Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges, were armed.

Teenage gunman Luke Woodham, who perpetrated the 1997 school shooting at a high school in Pearl, MS, was also brought to an abrupt halt at gunpoint.

This time, assistant principal Joel Myrick, retrieved a .45-caliber handgun from his car, parked off campus, and held the youth at gunpoint until police arrived. Again, the major media ignored Myrick’s heroism with a gun.

Truth be told if I owned a business I would certainly forbid any customer/client to enter while carrying.

You mean you would post a sign and/or verbally tell them not to carry? What good would that do?

Unless you actually search each customer or install metal detectors, you're TRUSTING them to obey your sign or follow your request. Let's think about that for a minute--what kind of people would obey your sign, and what kind wouldn't?

The fact is that measures like signs only disarm people that you wouldn't mind being armed. The people who are going to cause problems for you couldn't care less about your sign or what you think...

So, you've just virtually insured that at any given time, if there IS an armed person in your shop he cares nothing about your wishes and has absolutely no respect for your property and your rules and is probably either irritated by or scornful of your sign. You also insure that if there is a person in your business who respects you, your property, and your rules that he will be disarmed.

What's the rationale behind disarming only those who respect you and your wishes?

[Vane]

For what it is worth, concur with John KSa. Rightly or wrongly, TSA rules for some period of time (don't know about now) allowed us military guys to be exempted from full searches of our persons (shoes, etc.), the idea being that we are fighting the war on terror and hence probably not suspects. But we still couldn't carry weapons on commercial air flights (except in baggage like any other guy). Now TSA is contemplating allowing senior officers and politicos to pass without the inspections. Why not have it applied "normal" citizens? Even after the rigamarole done for a concealed carry permit. Depending on state, we can (or not) be trusted on schoolgrounds, in post offices (might stop those postal clerks "going postal"), other Federal buildings, and anywhere else, including airplanes, bars and other places serving alcohol (rock concerts, sport events and open are gatherings are off limits to CCW permit holders in some places). Signs on buildings are like laws in general, only those who won't do something bad obey them.
I hope we eventually get a national concealed carry law, even if it means each state has to live up to a rigorous training and certification regime to make it work better than driver's licenses. And that it applies EVERYWHERE!

[LAK]

Redworm

Perhaps I should clarify. The only visitors of a school with guns should be law enforcement.

This is still overlooking the fact that anyone that wants to carry one in is going to do so anyway. Unless you are going to have airline style screening at every entrance to the school. Everyone going in and out, students "coming back from lunch", breaks, their cars, football practice etc. And even with screening at all doors all day long it is still not going to stop them getting smuggled in via the windows, service entrances etc.

[3 weelin geezer]

Redworm, how would the pilot actually defend himself in the cockpit? Have you actually been in one? They are very small and you really can't move around much. Thats why they have that thick door nowadays that is locked from the inside and as I understand it it is very hard to breach. As for the sky marshall, or whoever is the law enforcement in the back should not only have good training (in the area of.....) but be able and ready to make a quick decision even if it means he may hurt an innocent person to save everyone else. No saying 'POLICE! DROP THE GUN!' or 'YOU ARE UNDER ARREST!' or 'Was that 6 shots or 5....I kinda lost track in all the excitement.' Just shut up and shoot. No questions just do it. Thats why he is there. The only reasonable argument I can see is that there would be confusion as to who is the good/bad guy in this scenario and therefore is a good idea that this be the only person with a weapon. I never know who is the 'police' on the flights I have been on so I don't get the chance to introduce myself as a 'good' guy as someone here does to avoid being shot in case of a showdown at 30000 ft. But wait, isn't tom clancy just a name for a GAME? I think I have one called 'splinter cell ' where you sneak up on people and go all ninja on them steven segal style. I find it boring. I like to shoot things. I like to blow things up. I like to set fires to everything and everyone I meet if they so much as not say 'good morning' with the proper size of smile. Then, I just comb my hair differently and they forget about me.

[Redworm]

you guys make good points...i still don't know though. something just doesn't make sense

[stephen426]

If you hold your thumb over the lens and grip the body of a Mini-Maglight, you will have about an inch to 2 inches of hardend aluminum sticking out the bottom of your first (depending on the size of your hads of course). Try hitting a watermelon with your fist and then try it with the Mini-Maglight. The force is much more concentrated and you get a LOT more pounds er square inch since there is much less surface area. You might crack the watermelon with your fist but you should asily puncture the watermelon with the mini mag. Last time I checked, my knuckles are quite a bit softer than hardened aluminum (and I like to think my knuckles are pretty darn hard).

A blow to the head with a kubaton would be much more effective than a punch and much more likely to crack the skull. A strike to the ribs would crack a rib easly (unless those ribs are buried under a mile of fat). Striking the front of the shoulder (where there are a lot of nerves) should take the arm out of commission for a while. Heck, even a hard punch to the front of the shoulder hurts like heck. The top of the light can also be held between the second and third fingers like a big fat cigarette. This increases range, albiet at the expense of power. This grip permits strikes to the side or top of the head as well as the collar bone. A broken collar bone takes a lot of fight out of people. At least you will slow them own somewhat and be able to get in a few more licks.

I'm not saying that a mini-maglight is the best defensive weapon in the world. It just beats plain old knuckes anyday.

I just reread my post and realized how crappy my spelling was. I apologize for sounding like an illiterate dumb butt. Lack of sleep and fast typing will do that to you.

[CarlosDJackal]

tshadow6, why just police, why shouldn't everyone be allowed to be armed everywhere incl. airliners?

I'm sorry, but just because someone has a CCW I don't believe that they should automatically be allowed to carry on a commercial flight. I fell the same for some LEOs.

I personally feel that anyone with a CCW or a badge should be allwoed to carry ona flight so as long as they pass the same skills test (a lot easier now) and carry the same type of ammunition as the FAMs. They also should be required to have qualified within three months of their flight. JM2CW.

[stephen426]

There are plenty of nut jobs out there. I'm sure there are also plenty of scumbag terrorists waiting to end their miserable existance as long at it means taking out a few Americans. Besides, how would the screening process go? Some people will be getting cavity searched for having a few too many fillings in their teeth while the CCW holder walks through armed to the teeth. Who's responsibility will it be to ensure that the CCW is indeed real. Who will be responsible to ensure the CCW holder has not gone nuts since the time he or she acquired the CCW. Who is to ensure that the CCW holder is not in fact a terrorist who managed to get a CCW because they have never been arrested before. I for one am already sick of the damn lines at the airport screening and would not like to have to camp at the airport 1 week ahead of time while the passengers get screened in order to make my flight.

I'd rather have the airlines raise everyone's fare by a few bucks and have a sky marshall or 2 on every flight. I think federal agents such as FBI and US Marshalls are already allowed to pack on board but they should be required to carry pre-fragged ammo to limit damage to the plane. The sky marshalls are held to much higher standards than the average CCW holder. Besides, I think their background checks are just a LITTLE more in depth than those for our CCWs.

Heck, Florida only requires a 4 hour class with not gun safety instruction or range time. Heck, I got mine without proving I can hit the broad side of a barn from 2 feet away! Besides, just because I sign an affadavit stating that I am not mentally ill or have no criminal history (maybe just never been caught ) doesn't mean it is true. Are you guys willing to take that chance or are you willing to have CCW permitting become much more difficult to obtain??? How about longer class times, say 1 week long. How about imposing difficult marksmanship requirements? What about tougher exams rather than the ridiculous quiz they require now? How about in depth background checks? This is much more likely to end all the rights to carry we fought for. If you want to carry a gun on board that badly, you can either become a sky marshall or a federal agent. Either that, or check it in like I do and be prepared to bruise your knuckes if some as*hole attempts to hijack the plane. All I can say is they had better have more than a lousy box cutter cause there will be at least a hundred passengers who won't go down without a fight. Those days ended when 9/11 happened. God bless the brave souls who probably saved the White House.

[Cowled_Wolfe]

Stephen, I'll second that. I haven't had to use my flashlight yet, but if I ever do, I plan on having it with me.

Ok, that last partsounded incredibly stupid... But it's just about the only tool I can carry to defend myself without worrying about school staff making me out to be a troublemaker.

Btw, that works on more than just watermelons... Try a 1/2" particleboard sheet... You'll see what I mean.

As a second BTW, I'm a highschooler and I'd LOVE to know my teachers are armed. Let's face it, if some student goes psycho someday and decides to try blasting his way through school one morning, I'd rather risk getting caught in a crossfire than be surrounded by unarmed, helpless teachers.

On the other hand, I'd only go for armed teachers if they took some special training in shooting with large numbers of bystanders.

Wolfe.

[ATW525]

I'm sorry, but just because someone has a CCW I don't believe that they should automatically be allowed to carry on a commercial flight.

I agree wholeheartedly. People who post on the Internet under the names of terrorists probably shouldn't be allowed to carry on a commercial flight whether they have a CCW or not.

[KLR]

ATW-

In an attempt to try to enlighten a fellow Granite Stater, I present:

http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/

Please read.

[CobrayCommando]

I would trust a properly (gun) trained pilot with a gun far more than I would random policemen. Statistically cops would have a far higher chance of being rogues, and as someone previously said, the pilot can take you down anyway without a gun, and far more easily.

I think everyone on board should be required to carry a 3-7 inch knife, so that in the event of a hijacking something can be done. Yes there will be the average nut on board, felons and mentally disturbed obviously would be exempt. And the pilot and copilot should have to carry guns as well, and be mentally prepared to shoot through hostages and fellow crewmembers to kill a terrorist.

Not that it matters, I guess I'm in some kind of nihilistic mood tonight, but we will never be able to stop terrorism. They will just shove C4 in the undercarriage as its loading passengers and blow it in the air.

Ok if armed federalis are always on the plane first, wouldn't the first passengers to board see them and know who they are?

[ATW525]

KLR,

I'm quite aware of the U.S. Postal Inspection Service. I guess if I ever find myself the victim of a postal-related offense while flying on board an aircraft, I'll be grateful if there's an armed postal inspector there to take the perp down.

[KLR]

ATW-

Sorry about that. I work with a lot of Postal Inspectors. Most people have never heard of the agency hence my assumption.

[ATW525]

Well, I noticed some time ago they were on EOTech's list of operators and the contact is here in Manchester, so I imagine there's a few around the area. I'm not sure what they'd mount EOTech's on, but I certainly not about to commit mail fraud and find out.

[KLR]

My understanding is the two long guns are the Remington 870 and the MP-5 Navy Model.