Better shot than law enforcement? - Page 4

swmike · August 29, 2005, 06:47 PM

Bare Bones--- I agree with you totally. Well, sort of. The reality of it all is that there are too many "on the job" that don't agree with what you said. They would just as soon leave the piece in the locker and unless the job requires them to carry when OD, they don't. Practice is as some others have said, the box they run through just to make sure they can re-qualify. When was the last time you saw a squad "opened up". I have lived and traveled extensively in Seattle, Denver, Portland, LA, SF, Phoenix, Tucson. Most times the only time the window is down is when the officer picks up his order at the drive through. Yes, there are a lot of good officers that have the same thoughts and dedication to the job as you expressed. Don't try and tell me that this is universal. Too many have been lucky. Unfortunately training (especially the kind that saves lives) is expensive. Since most Police Chiefs today are required to be administrators and live within a budget handed to them by political bean counters, the first thing that seems to get cut is training time. Next thing is 2-man patrol cars. I can't even remember the last time I saw an officer walking a beat (except in Seattle where they costumed two officers as turn of the century (1898-1903 era) cops and put them out in a tourist area.

My post was not intended to denigrate the LEO's as a group but to put into perspective the boast that was made about being able to outshoot one at the range. I don't question the desire of every officer out there on the job to discharge his/her duties to the best of their ability and most importantly, go home safely at the end of the day. Not all have the same skills and dedication to the job. Wouldn't it be nice if they did?

CarlosDJackal · August 29, 2005, 08:35 PM

This is freaking hilarious. I am wondering what the thread starter would have thought if he had observed three LEOs who happen to be good shooters instead of the three non-shootiers he did meet?

Three shooters do not in any way shape or form represent the whole LEO Community. But regardless of this, based on my experience teaching Basic Pistol Courses, the percentage of all gun owners who cannot shoot is probably the same as the percentage of all LEOs who also cannot shoot.

The fact of the matter is, the (good) shooters that you see at the range is probably the top 5% of all gun owners. Much like only about the top 5% of LEOs are decent shots because they like to shoot. JM2CW.

John Ringo · August 30, 2005, 09:29 AM

I am actually in the process of becoming a LEO here in DC...but...

In my experience LEO shooting ability varies as it does with anyone. Most LEOs I know have never been in a "Dirty Harry" shootout per se. There are a lot of LEOs around the Washington DC Metro area that are very questionable in my book. There are tons and tons of agencies around here of every make and shape. My point is that marksmanship is probably wayyyyyy down on their list of priorities.

Clayfish · August 30, 2005, 09:32 AM

I shoot with a LEO in my church every now and then. He down right puts me to shame every time, and I'm a pretty good shot. SOme are good, some aren't.

swmike · August 30, 2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clayfish

I shoot with a LEO in my church every now and then

Doesn't that bother the fellow church members? What does the Minister have to say? Break any of those stained glass windows?

Bare Bones · August 30, 2005, 10:50 AM

SWMIKE: Sorry to say that I must agree with you as to the disparity of attitude seen in the ranks of most modern departments. Where I sort of disagree with you is that I would argue it is not necessarily a budgetary problem. Even with the money crunch, much can still be accomplished.

Where the problem exists, IMHO, is in the mid level command structure ( Sgt. FTO's Range officers, etc.). In the departments zeal to free up money, they made a conscious (sp) decision to release or early out many senior officers to free up money for more warm bodies. When they got these bodies, there was no one left to impart the needed education on the street. Not much later these became the mid level management. Hence, you have a situation where the uneducated are teaching the uninitiated. I know that this is an over simplification and not true in every case, but when you talk to young offciers andSgt. with three to four years in or, better yet, read their training schedules and their roll call instructions, it is realll inciteful.

A young officer, regardless of sex, can not be expected to perform better than the examples presented to them by their more experienced peers. This is, I think, the root problem that rears its ugly head when officers do not take pride in mastering the basic skill demanded of them. ie. shooting.

As to the department dead heads; every department has them and they are the bane of our existance. There is no known solution short of culling them during probation. Once on the job they are like pilot fish sucking the blood out of a living organism. Much contempt, but no solution.

There. That's the sermon. I freely agree that there are degrees of skills in regard to firearms across the board, both civilian and law enforcement. The obvious has been stated. Extreme efficiency is to be desired, but not expected, of all practioners. So get to the range whenever you can and practice those skills you find necessary, but don't assume that your accessment of "necessary" is mine.

Clayfish · August 30, 2005, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Doesn't that bother the fellow church members? What does the Minister have to say? Break any of those stained glass windows?

Well since I'm the music minister and he's the church handman we usually shoot after hours and he fixes all the windows and drywall etc... Hey that was good. I love a good sense of humor.

Wyo Cowboy · August 30, 2005, 04:49 PM

Our pastor obviously can't make the Sunday, after church shoots. But lookout on Monday! He can bless you, praise the Lord, and beat the pants off of most of the shooters that might be at the range.

Dave H · August 30, 2005, 05:41 PM

It's honestly tough to make abject judgements about how good somebody is by watching the black on their target. All of us have had lousy days on the range, and if you are going to train to a new skill or technique or fix a specific bad habit, one would expect to be all over the page at first. Good, reliable, well-trained peace officers have to use LOTS of tools and abilities to get the job done, argueably that pistol might be the least often used one. I shoot next to cops (on the pistol range that is) once in a while and sometimes they shoot great, sometimes I'm a little better, but when the chips are down lawmen have to do a lot more than just hit where they are aiming; they have to reason and think, which is a good deal harder to do and to train for.

August 29, 2005, 06:47 PM	#76
swmike Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Marysville, WA Posts: 670	Bare Bones--- I agree with you totally. Well, sort of. The reality of it all is that there are too many "on the job" that don't agree with what you said. They would just as soon leave the piece in the locker and unless the job requires them to carry when OD, they don't. Practice is as some others have said, the box they run through just to make sure they can re-qualify. When was the last time you saw a squad "opened up". I have lived and traveled extensively in Seattle, Denver, Portland, LA, SF, Phoenix, Tucson. Most times the only time the window is down is when the officer picks up his order at the drive through. Yes, there are a lot of good officers that have the same thoughts and dedication to the job as you expressed. Don't try and tell me that this is universal. Too many have been lucky. Unfortunately training (especially the kind that saves lives) is expensive. Since most Police Chiefs today are required to be administrators and live within a budget handed to them by political bean counters, the first thing that seems to get cut is training time. Next thing is 2-man patrol cars. I can't even remember the last time I saw an officer walking a beat (except in Seattle where they costumed two officers as turn of the century (1898-1903 era) cops and put them out in a tourist area. My post was not intended to denigrate the LEO's as a group but to put into perspective the boast that was made about being able to outshoot one at the range. I don't question the desire of every officer out there on the job to discharge his/her duties to the best of their ability and most importantly, go home safely at the end of the day. Not all have the same skills and dedication to the job. Wouldn't it be nice if they did? __________________ My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target. "In God we trust, all others are suspects." "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help". ____________________________________________

August 30, 2005, 09:29 AM	#78
John Ringo Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2004 Location: Washington DC Posts: 379	I am actually in the process of becoming a LEO here in DC...but... In my experience LEO shooting ability varies as it does with anyone. Most LEOs I know have never been in a "Dirty Harry" shootout per se. There are a lot of LEOs around the Washington DC Metro area that are very questionable in my book. There are tons and tons of agencies around here of every make and shape. My point is that marksmanship is probably wayyyyyy down on their list of priorities. __________________ Regards, John Ringo "I like these calm little moments before the storm (Stansfield, The Professional)."

August 29, 2005, 08:35 PM	#77
CarlosDJackal Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2004 Location: Central Virginia Posts: 109	This is freaking hilarious. I am wondering what the thread starter would have thought if he had observed three LEOs who happen to be good shooters instead of the three non-shootiers he did meet? Three shooters do not in any way shape or form represent the whole LEO Community. But regardless of this, based on my experience teaching Basic Pistol Courses, the percentage of all gun owners who cannot shoot is probably the same as the percentage of all LEOs who also cannot shoot. The fact of the matter is, the (good) shooters that you see at the range is probably the top 5% of all gun owners. Much like only about the top 5% of LEOs are decent shots because they like to shoot. JM2CW.

August 30, 2005, 09:32 AM	#79
Clayfish Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2005 Location: Valdosta, GA Posts: 953	I shoot with a LEO in my church every now and then. He down right puts me to shame every time, and I'm a pretty good shot. SOme are good, some aren't.

August 30, 2005, 10:50 AM	#81
Bare Bones Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Location: Illinois on river of same name Posts: 27	SWMIKE: Sorry to say that I must agree with you as to the disparity of attitude seen in the ranks of most modern departments. Where I sort of disagree with you is that I would argue it is not necessarily a budgetary problem. Even with the money crunch, much can still be accomplished. Where the problem exists, IMHO, is in the mid level command structure ( Sgt. FTO's Range officers, etc.). In the departments zeal to free up money, they made a conscious (sp) decision to release or early out many senior officers to free up money for more warm bodies. When they got these bodies, there was no one left to impart the needed education on the street. Not much later these became the mid level management. Hence, you have a situation where the uneducated are teaching the uninitiated. I know that this is an over simplification and not true in every case, but when you talk to young offciers andSgt. with three to four years in or, better yet, read their training schedules and their roll call instructions, it is realll inciteful. A young officer, regardless of sex, can not be expected to perform better than the examples presented to them by their more experienced peers. This is, I think, the root problem that rears its ugly head when officers do not take pride in mastering the basic skill demanded of them. ie. shooting. As to the department dead heads; every department has them and they are the bane of our existance. There is no known solution short of culling them during probation. Once on the job they are like pilot fish sucking the blood out of a living organism. Much contempt, but no solution. There. That's the sermon. I freely agree that there are degrees of skills in regard to firearms across the board, both civilian and law enforcement. The obvious has been stated. Extreme efficiency is to be desired, but not expected, of all practioners. So get to the range whenever you can and practice those skills you find necessary, but don't assume that your accessment of "necessary" is mine.

August 30, 2005, 04:49 PM	#83
Wyo Cowboy Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2005 Location: Northern Wyoming Posts: 343	Our pastor obviously can't make the Sunday, after church shoots. But lookout on Monday! He can bless you, praise the Lord, and beat the pants off of most of the shooters that might be at the range.

August 30, 2005, 05:41 PM	#84
Dave H Member Join Date: April 25, 2005 Posts: 34	It's honestly tough to make abject judgements about how good somebody is by watching the black on their target. All of us have had lousy days on the range, and if you are going to train to a new skill or technique or fix a specific bad habit, one would expect to be all over the page at first. Good, reliable, well-trained peace officers have to use LOTS of tools and abilities to get the job done, argueably that pistol might be the least often used one. I shoot next to cops (on the pistol range that is) once in a while and sometimes they shoot great, sometimes I'm a little better, but when the chips are down lawmen have to do a lot more than just hit where they are aiming; they have to reason and think, which is a good deal harder to do and to train for.