Would it work for you if you had too?

[maillemaker]

I agree that the designation of special muzzle loading seasons prompted an arms race of sorts to manufacture and provide completely modern firearms that met the requirements of being "muzzle loading".

I think a possible solution would be to only allow original and replicas of firearms prior to some date, say, 1865.

Steve

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

You guys are missing the mark here a little I think. Can't have the rules too easy to understand. Politicians and DNR Officials are known for their ability to write quirks & slippery two meaning wording into their Legislation.

Has anyone checked on this poll today. Its running neck & neck almost. Your traditional toters and 209-inliners are hanging tough on this subject of a split up season. No one side is ruling the vote so far.

S/S

[newfrontier45]

I didn't even vote because I don't think there should be a split season but my vote would be misinterpreted. I think those using modern muzzleloaders should not be able to hunt in a special season at all.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Here in MN. One 2 week span for everyone carrying a muzzle loader. Thanksgiving weekend thru the first two full weeks of December. Quite cold then weather wise and the deer are pretty skidish & nervous yet from the prior ending of its modern rifle season. Bow hunters are given time in advance of modern rifle to hunt. Why shouldn't its muzzle loaders be offered the same deal. Those last 2 weeks in October would work for me. Or one full week in the end of October and another in the first week of December would be something to look forward too every year no doubt.

Required coats and other articles of clothing worn in this State now by its muzzle loaders is no different than whats required of the modern rifle hunters. Blaze orange everything above the waist. I would like to see a change in that venue. Full camouflage with only one article of blaze orange needing to be worn (gloves!!) for us muzzle loaders.

License requirements. No more tagging at the kill site only. Let us M/Ls get our deer home and out of the weather before that needs to be done. After all were not crooks or poachers are we fellows.

S/S

[Captchee]

Has anyone checked on this poll today. Its running neck & neck almost. Your traditional toters and 209-inliners are hanging tough on this subject of a split up season. No one side is ruling the vote so far.

Back in 2006 when the IDF&G did their polling on this same issue . the result was much the same . however the traditional only vote carried by some 200 votes . as i recall there was over 6500 votes total ???

as such the game commission supported the turn to a traditional only ,muzzleloading hunt for the 2007 year .
those who were not happy with the situation to the issue strait to the legislature with a petition that carried some 3000 votes . Many of which from what a couple of commissioners at the time , stated , could not be substantiated or verified .
At the same time the likes of randy .w and toby b. entered the mix
With TB going so far as to file a federal complaint with the FF&W for discrimination based on age and disability.
Dispite that , the majority of our then standing commissioners were telling us that they would stand with the their ruling .
One commissioner from North Idaho , where those who were against the rule was the strongest , turned . He even went so far as to change his hunts so that it aloud the modern rifles . Which was his right under our laws , to do for 1 year .
In 2008 the rules were changed back with restrictions on modern muzzleloaders and a complete removal of ALL traditional ONLY designated hunts and a loss of many muzzle loading ONLY hunts .

So it doesn’t surprise me at all that our small vote here is very close .

[YARDDOG(1)]

Back in the early '80s Ga had no M/L season,, Only Special M/L hunts as on Ft Stewart.. I tagged out every year through mid '90s.

Only M/L were allowed was front stuffer without scopes.. Some of the fellas I hunted with had cheap inlines,,As to help ignight the powder w/o delays.

I've only missed (1) deer cause of a delay.. I still use my T/C sidelock M/L

Sometime in the late '90s Ga started a M/L season & allowed scopes.
As far as M/L I think either or will work & don't object to any inline
JMHO ; )
Y/D

[4V50 Gary]

I don't really see any advantage to the inline. I'll take a Parker-Hale Enfield anyday over an inline.

[B.L.E.]

I think a possible solution would be to only allow original and replicas of firearms prior to some date, say, 1865.

Steve

That would open the door to paper cartridge Sharps single shots and Spencer repeaters.
Also, a lot of traditional style rifles, TC Hawken, Lyman Great Plains, and others are not really replicas of historical rifles.

[Captchee]

hate to tell you this B.L.E. but a whole lot , IMO the vast majority of even the very nice custom built long rifles out there today , are not replicas of original rifles even though they are much closer then the ones your talking about .
sometimes its just the shaping of the stock thats wrong . other times its the hardware . alot of times its a completely wrong lock .

have you ever seen an Issac Hains with iron hardware ?
how about an original derrick with German silver . for that mater any original American long rifle done in all silver .

same goes for alot of smoothbores .
many of us for years have been saying that the idea that smooth bores didn’t have rear sights was way off base . yet in the last few years more and more evidence has proven to in fact be right even on trade guns .
The same thing goes for coil springs .
Do you realize that the inline ignition flintlock guns built in the 1700 used coil springs .?

What about calibers . If a given rile was most commonly accepted to have been 36 to 45 , would you accept it as a replic if it was made in 54 05 60 cal ?
So could we then not say that such a custom gun is not a replica of any given long rifle . Especially if it was mounted in silver not brass
How about a E Marshall with a siler lock ???
Maybe a French Fusil De Chase with a round face queen Ann or trade gun lock ?

Also the breech loader that you mention .
Did you know cartridge evolution goes back near 200 years before that in flintlocks .
a lot of folks don’t realize that even the shotgun shells we use today are very near the same as the first shotgun shells being made in the 1830’s , paper hauls and all .
Also where would we fit in rifles like the haul and Fergusson rifle ?
Lets not forget they were breech loading flintlocks .

What about projectiles , would we say that if someone shot a conical they were not using a proper projectile as those didn’t exist prior to around 1850, give or take 10 years depending on who one reads .
Well we would also then be wrong as wad cutter / dumb ,dumb type conical have been excavated from revolutionary war battlefield sites . The Monmouth site is just one .

So really if one starts lining out what is and is not a replica , a whole lot of folks are going to be saddly mistaken

[B.L.E.]

Captchee, you kind of make my point.

If it shoots a patched ball using black powder and is loaded from the muzzle, then it has the ballistic and repeat shot limitations of any gun that shoots a patched ball with black powder loaded from the muzzle.
It doesn't matter if it looks like Davey Crockett's rifle or if it looks like an AR-15 to the deer being hunted.
Igniting the charge with a primer does not give the rifle better ballistics nor does it make it speedier to reload. Primers are in fact nothing but fancy percussion caps.

[Lucas McCain]

First thing that needs to be done in Minnesota is take the damn politicians out of game management. All they are doing is micro-managing the DNR and catering to large campaign contributors desires. Leave itto the DNR and good science.
I think the bow hunters should share the last 10-14 days of October with the muzzle loaders before the deer get thinned out by the 450,000 rifle hunters. After rifle season the deer have pretty much gone nocturnal and 185,000 are missing. A lot of the large bucks are taken also because the bow hunter and the rifle hunter get to hunt during the peak of the rut. Presently ML hunter don't get that privilege.
This could possibly be done on a bi-annual basis.

[B.L.E.]

Shouldn't handgun hunters have their own special season also?

[Captchee]

while i can accept that you see it that way B.L.E for me at least it goes much deeper .
As I said my biggest problem is the never ending want from modern shooters to liberalize the rules or to spin the rules wording .

The add in the almost hypercritical nature of the movement itself .
IE on one hand you have the manufacture touting . Long range performance , high velocities, Extreme accuracy and greater ignition performance. With some rifles they even go so far as to mention how resistance to moisture their design is .
All this in write up after right up . Magazine after magazine .. Look around the internet and read a few accounts by the shooters themselves .
But then when people start to say , Now wait a doggone minute . Suddenly the cry goes out that all that manufacture information isn’t true . The magazine stories are false , the shooter accounts are simple misleading ….

Its almost to the point of the seen in Tombstone where Holdiay shows up to kill Ringo and reminds him of the game they didn’t finish . Im sure you know the part . IE; the fights not with you Holiday.
Never mind it really was .
When Holiday says ; I beg to differ we started a game we didn’t get to finish . Play for blood remember .
Ringo replies ; I was just foolin about .


The difference, well the difference is its normally followed by an example of some long range muzzleloader as proof that the whole story isn’t being told .
The problem with that though is that at least here , the vast majority of those are not legal either.

So while I would agree that what I said seems to support your opinion, the simple fact is the problem is much more in-depth. Sit in on enough commission meetings and you will see just what im saying .

that’s why I belive that the quickest way to dry the modern guns up , is to simply do away with the special muzzle loading hunts . a lot of the modern companies arent doing so well anyway .
You kill the need and you kill the largest % of the supply .
OR
simply go to a chose you weapon type of season . give each disipline equal time . . IE a persona wants to take advantage of the muzzleloader season . then you shoot muzzleload and thats it .
they think centerfire is better . then centerfire is all they can hunt in .
Artchery should be the same . if the want is for that season , fine , grab you bow . when its over your done

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Speaking of split seasons. MN did just that once but I can't remember which firearm season it affected. Quite some time ago it happened.

Anyone here from MN that remembers this subject matter?

{As I recall a little. It had something to do with early and later date choices?}



P.Script: I'm enjoying everyone's comments posted. Some very interesting points you fellows touch on concerning this subject. Weapons use. Politics, preferential treatment. Any how. All interesting thoughts.

[Doc Hoy]

...a hunter. So I don't have a dog in this fight.

But I remember my uncle and cousin grousing about the decision to take the bp rifle or the bow. The two seasons coincided and so it was reasonable to do one or the other but not both. It was only one day which IIRC corresponded to doe season. ("Ah, see the cute little deer. Does the deer have a little doe? Yeah, Two bucks." Three stooges)

[Lucas McCain]

Minnesota had a split season in 1976 because the population was so low. For me it was a very memorable hunt that year. At that time there were very few bow hunters. In my area I only knew of 3 bow hunters in 2 townships.
The rifle season was the whole month of November. The first 2 weeks you chose 3 consecutive days to hunt. and the last 2 weeks you chose 5 consecutive days to hunt.
It was a great hunt, the deer weren't pushed to bad and there weren't many hunters afield at that time. I took the thanksgiving weekend, followed a buck for 4 days and shot him in his bed Sunday afternoon when it was still and -15 below zero. It was my first 148 point buck in 26 yrs. of hunting, and my very best and memorable white tail hunt ever.

[histed]

PA also has two seasons. Early season allows inlines and scopes, as well as traditional longrifles. Late season, after the regular rifle season, is, at this point, flintlock only. By choice I shoot a custom .54 flint. Never owned an inline and likely never will, but to each his own. Means I get to hunt both seasons with the same rifle, spend more time in the woods, and maybe shoot a 2nd or 3rd deer for the freezer. No major problems with "ijuts" where I hunt, so I have no problem with inlines or two seasons.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Mn use to allow its hunters both options. To hunt modern rifle and muzzle loader Seasons and take a deer in each circumstance. We now are allowed only one deer harvested per year per hunter. So if you harvest a deer during modern rifle. You are {ineligible} to take another during M/L.
But there are different rules that apply to CWD animals and over populated deer range. Where hunters in those area's may indeed be allowed to harvest more than one deer per year.

Modern rifle season has always proceeded M/L season here in MN. Which I think should be reversed. Modern rifle hunters chase the deer so deep into the green swamps during their Season. It takes those same animals the rest of the winter to fine there way out. Or so it seems to this M/L hunter._

S/S

[Hawg]

We can take eight with three being bucks. The only criteria is bucks have to have a 13 inch main beam or a 10 inch inside spread. No tags or any kind of record system so no way of knowing how many you actually took. I never come close to the limit tho.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Say Hawg. Since its been rumered that T/C will no longer make Triditional rifles. What do you suppose a T/C Hawken will sell for used in the near future? Or does that not happen with M/L that they would immediately gain in value?

I wonder if due to lack of enthusiasm for what ever reason. When it comes to Traditional rifle usage. When one supplier purposely gives up on a weapons design such as Thompson supposedly has. Quite often these days one industry player pays particular attention to their competitor's market place behavior. And may indeed follow suit. {Especially so. If there isn't a large following of customers for their product either.} So you inline shooters best be nice to us Triditional fellows. Who knows if were going to be around much longer?_

[thallub]

For many years Ft. Sill, OK had a two week muzzleloader deer season. Any muzzleloader could be used so long as the caliber was .40 or larger.

Last year Ft. Sill went to a split season. First week was conventional muzzleloaders only, no scopes allowed: Patched round ball or conicals only.

Bought a nice TC New Englander for that first week's hunting and sighted it in for the TC 370 grain Maxi-Ball. Decided to limit my shots to 75 yards. Saw numerous deer but did not get a shot. Could have easily killed several different deer with a scoped inline.

Hunted all week, saw a lot of deer and got some good exercise. Had a blast.

[Pahoo]

Say Hawg. Since its been rumered that T/C will no longer make Triditional rifles. What do you suppose a T/C Hawken will sell for used in the near future? Or does that not happen with M/L that they would immediately gain in value?

Pahoo here and it's not a rumor, it's true. I first heard about it back in late March and then confirmed in early may when I got my Hunter Instructors package. As in all cases, you may want to confirm this with them. Just phone their customer service dept. As far as collector value and I am one, it will be a long time before they go up as there are just too many of them out there. Again, by my measure, they were the last of the American produced commercial SideLocks.

Be Safe !!!

[YARDDOG(1)]

Ga. Use to have a Primative weapon season,, Could use either or.. I'm not sure about Ga. now as I hav'nt hunted it for years ; )
Y/D

[steinauge]

I believe inlines should NOT be allowed during M\L season.that buzzing noise you hear is old John Baird spinning in his grave.

[Hawg]

Say Hawg. Since its been rumered that T/C will no longer make Triditional rifles. What do you suppose a T/C Hawken will sell for used in the near future? Or does that not happen with M/L that they would immediately gain in value?

I agree with Pahoo. They probably will go up but not any time soon.....Well maybe on Gbroker.