The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 12, 2011, 05:31 PM   #1
rc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,742
"Cheap" over and unders

I had a chance to closely look at some Brazillian over and unders this week and I saw that the locking mechanims was a bit weak! Now I thought I would ask what over and under guns under $600 have significant locking lugs?
rc is offline  
Old September 12, 2011, 05:49 PM   #2
Slugo
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2001
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1,007
that's easy...

NONE!!!
Slugo is offline  
Old September 12, 2011, 05:55 PM   #3
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
CDNN MIGHT have a Lanber close to that amount - about as cheap as I would want to venture;

Otherwise, looking for a used Browning/Beretta/SKB (realizing it will be an older one)would still be better than what the current "cheap" guns are.

Remember, cheap is not the same as inexpensive - you DO get what you pay for
oneounceload is offline  
Old September 12, 2011, 06:03 PM   #4
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,195
Its not just locking lugs you need to worry about ....but the answer is none.

Browning and Beretta have set the standard on O/U's that are durable ...with very good quality for a long time. In the Browning Citori line -- there are some guns in the $ 1,500 price range new ...that may work for you ..( and some of the better guns in the Citori line - get into $ 3,000 - $ 4,000 as well ) ...

O/U's are not inexpensive to mfg...and you have to ask yourself ...on guns that are under that $ 1,500 plateau ...why ....quality of the locking mechanism in the receiver, on the barrel, quality of the barrels, the ribs, the triggers...and what kind of warranty do they have / where do I have to send it to get it fixed, get parts, etc...

There are guns like the TriStar sold thru Cabelas and others that at least come with a 5 yr warranty ...that might work for you .../ but at least be cautious ...and understand the pricing is not just fancy wood / its in the internals that you can't see...the steel, etc..

Of course quality / durability are relative too ....do you want a gun that will last a lifetime / is a shotgun for your lifetime going to fire 10,000 shells a yr ( mine fire at least that many per yr) ...or is it 1,000 shells a yr .../ is it a gun that you expect to "use up" in 10 yrs or a gun you want to pass on to your kids or grandkids ...what is the resale value of it ( as an example a Browning Citori lightning, 12ga, 28" barrels with screw in chokes sold new in 1988 for $ 750 / today 23 yrs later...with some scratches, that gun is still worth used - having fired maybe 100,000 shells - at least $ 1,000 ). Is that value / maybe / maybe not to you ....

You have to weigh all this stuff in evaluating one O/U over another ...and cost..etc.../ and have fun with your search !
BigJimP is offline  
Old September 12, 2011, 06:32 PM   #5
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,678
They're great, for firing maybe 10 shots/season, and spend the rest of the time being shown to everybody - "Look at my O/U - only $500 ! "

.
PetahW is offline  
Old September 12, 2011, 07:57 PM   #6
Antique Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2010
Location: South Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 106
Get a Stoeger Condor. They are right around $400. I have a Stoeger Uplander,(Side by Side) and couldn't ask for anything more for the price.Now don't get wrong, it's not a L.C. Smith, or A.H. Fox(I have both), but it is a good inexpensive hunting gun. I have a 12 and .410 in the uplander.

The Condor comes with screw in chokes, 3 inch chambering, and is available in both 28 and 26 inch barrels.

It is a quality gun, you can't go wrong with it!

Antique Shooter
Antique Shooter is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 03:22 AM   #7
natman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Posts: 2,604
Here's the truth about inexpensive double shotguns:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...ab7520d4463935

IMO there aren't any decent new double guns offered under $1000 regular price. You might be able to snag a bargain at CDNN on clearance or find something used. If the budget won't stretch that far, get a good pump until it will.
natman is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 07:15 AM   #8
BrittB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2011
Location: Oregon
Posts: 554
I've been shooting my Stoeger Condor at the local gun club for a little while now and the only thing I wished it did that it doesn't is eject the hulls instead of extract the hulls. Other than that, it's been flawless and I would buy another. The only possible issue I can see down the road vs. an expensive o/u is long term is that I can't see the Condor lasting 10-15 years of gun club use but a high end unit will be something that will last for generations with a occasional tune up. Something to consider.
BrittB is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 07:51 AM   #9
Sarge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 5,453
I looked at a used Condor the other day, which someone had added an old-school recoil pad to. Dang thing fit me like a glove; I could mount the gun and see nothing but the front bead, I've always been a SxS guy but I could see birds being real hard to miss with this shotgin.

I probably could have bought it for 250 bucks. Only thing that put me off of it was that it had a gap between the barrels, ahead of the forearm and I see the newer guns don't have this.

All I'm looking for is a reliable field gun that will handle a couple hundred rounds of field loads every year, between informal clay bird shooting and hunting. Judging from what I read, the Stoegers will do that. If anybody here has had one fall apart in 1000 rounds, I'd like to hear about it.
__________________
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
Sarge is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 09:35 AM   #10
oletymer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2005
Posts: 338
There should be stickies on every forum about cheap o/u,s. I see Brownings and Berettas as the cheap o/u,s. They are good bottom end guns. Anything below that and the marketing guys are all sitting around the table saying "see they will buy anything as long as it's cheap".
oletymer is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 09:59 AM   #11
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 8,638
What about the CZ O/U's,,,

The CZ Mallard 104A lists at only $521.00

CZ-USA had several other models listing around $700-800 bucks.

I know very little about shotguns,,,
But I do know my handguns.

CZ makes some of the best rifles and handguns on the market,,,
Does their quality extend into their inexpensive O/U shotguns as well?

I'm asking, not stating.

Aarond
__________________
Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat.
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 10:08 AM   #12
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Quote:
CZ makes some of the best rifles and handguns on the market,,,
Does their quality extend into their inexpensive O/U shotguns as well?
While CZ makes their rifles and handguns, they farm out their shotguns to Huglu in Turkey, who has had a lot fo issues with quality trying to deliver to a certain low price point. There ARE some good Turkish makers, UTAS is one, but Huglu needs more time.

DeHaan used to sell Huglus, especially "higher end" ones - but he took them completely apart and basically did all the finishing and handwork necessary to make them more reliable
oneounceload is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 10:39 AM   #13
batmann
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2004
Location: Greenwood, IN
Posts: 773
I second the Stoger Condor. I have a Weatherby that I love, but my son has a Condor that he uses and it has close to a 600 hundred rounds of MY shells through it, so I have a pretty good idea of how it shoots. For the money, an excellent buy.
batmann is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 11:14 AM   #14
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,195
On these lower end shotguns ...it isn't just a matter if one of them fell apart at 1,000 rds / or if they go bang when you pull the trigger....

a. But its will both barrels shoot to the same Point of Impact / or at 25 yds will one barrel shoot high and 8" left ...and one low and 6" to the right ...( and I've seen Stoegers, Weatherby, TriStar's, Huglu's etc - that have that issue). Now what are you going to do with it ?? Maybe the mfg will try and fix it / or maybe they'll replace it ...maybe they'll just say, sorry, its yours !

b. If the stock or forend are not fit properly ...will it crack ..and now what to do ..../ will they warrant it - or alledge that you must have mistreated it ??

c. What if the lock mechanism is weak / or not hardened properly ...and it weakens / or it galls when you're connecting or disconnecting the barrels...and they say, no, it was abuse ...they won't fix it ??

d. What about the internals - the springs, firing pins, trigger system... / what if they aren't hardened properly ...and they break or fracture after every 1,000 shells or less ...now what do you do to make it better...

but seriously, most any shotgun made will go bang for a couple of thousand shells..../ ....but if these low end guns were really going to hold up anywhere close to the standards that Beretta or Browning have set for well over 30 yrs ...they would be demanding higher prices in the used market or selling for higher prices on the front end ...or these companies have to be cutting corners.

To me - a gun of value --- has to be able to shoot at least 4 boxes a week / so call it 5,000 shells a yr ....for at least 10 yrs --- so call it 50,000 shells without any issues - or I'm suggesting its a waste of money ! But if you go into this with your eyes open, I'm happy. I hope for the best for you, if you try one of these guns ...but please don't expect them to last for 100,000 shells or more with no issues or you're kidding yourself.
BigJimP is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 11:42 AM   #15
BrittB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2011
Location: Oregon
Posts: 554
All I'm saying is I've had it for a little while and have shot well over 1000 rounds through it, no problem.
BrittB is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 02:10 PM   #16
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 8,638
Thanks oneounceload,,,

I knew it seemed too good to be true.

Thanks for the info on who actually makes them,,,
I've read a small bit about Huglu and none of it was very good.

Thanks again.

Aarond
__________________
Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat.
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 02:24 PM   #17
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
You can still get DeHaan's - but his lowest end gun is still 1600:

http://www.dhshotguns.com/SGr.html

In that price range, I can find some nice used Spanish guns, maybe even a new Uggie base model

Last edited by oneounceload; September 13, 2011 at 02:45 PM.
oneounceload is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 07:26 PM   #18
BUFF
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 27, 2011
Location: Augusta, KS
Posts: 226
Savage/Stevens makes a decent O/U. 20ga around $500. 12ga a little more than that. Got mine for free at a Quail Unlimited banquet raffle, so it was cheap for me.
BUFF is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 07:57 PM   #19
Sarge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 5,453
Is that the Gold Wing, Buff? How do you like it?
__________________
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
Sarge is offline  
Old September 14, 2011, 09:50 AM   #20
bitttorrrent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 703
Petah...
That is what i don't want for it to sit around.

I really want a double barrel.. They make anymore?

What is real use for over under. 2 shot heavy and expensive. For trap sheet?
bitttorrrent is offline  
Old September 14, 2011, 10:27 AM   #21
oregunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: Oregon, of course
Posts: 136
I have a Goldwing in 28 gauge. I have used it for 5 Stand and it has already broken both firing pins. Beauty was only skin deep. It is now relegated to the back of the safe, as a loaner gun.
oregunner is offline  
Old September 14, 2011, 11:59 AM   #22
Sarge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 5,453
Thanks, oregunner
__________________
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
Sarge is offline  
Old September 14, 2011, 12:38 PM   #23
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,195
Bitttorrent wrote ...or asked ...

" What is real use for over under. 2 shot heavy and expensive. For trap sheet? "...

You were asking good general questions - and by a double barrel, I'm assuming you mean a Side by Side...and I don't know which mfg you were asking about ...but yes, there are a lot of them on the market. Like in this discussion about cheaper O/U's - there is some real junk out there in the lower level SXS's .../ both SXS's and O/U's are not cheap to manufacture...especially SXS's ...

But in terms of an O/U ...

a. Usage...for myself - an O/U is the preferred platform I shoot for upland bird hunting, even some duck hunting, Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays.

In today's O/U's you have 2 barrels / so you can screw in different chokes for most any application. You don't have "feeding" issues on an O/U ...if you can get the shell into the chambers, chances are it'll fire ( vs pump, semi-autos ). The stacked barrels mean your sight picture doesn't change whether you fire the Over or Under barrels vs ( SXS - its very different ). With the single trigger - most of us prefer - reset is easy and firing the 2nd barrel vs the older double triggers still used in some SXS's.

b. are they heavy ...not really. My Browning Citori O/U's with 30" barrels are right at 8 lbs ...and overall length is the same as a pump or semi-auto with 28" barrel ( receiver area is shorter on an O/U ). Balance on a good gun is somewhere between your hands ...so to me, its no issue.

c. expensive ...no, not to me, but that's a relative issue depending on what your budget is. Today, you can get very solid guns from Browning and Beretta in their O/U's from $ 1,500 - $ 4,000 ...and going up in price, isn't just about fancy wood - and picking a gun isn't just about price / its about what stock dimensions fit you - drop at comb, drop at heel, length of pull, etc - or do you need a parallel comb gun to fit the best.

Not that a pump gun, semi-auto or SXS isn't a good platform ...they are ...and I have pumps and semi-autos / but the SXS's tend to be fitted with very short stocks, a lot of drop at comb, with small grip areas ....and they just don't fit me, unless I want to spend $2,500 or more on a custom stock ...and coupled with the issue of a very different sight picture when I shoot the right barrel vs the left barrel on a crossing bird from left to right ..I don't find the SXS - for me - to be a practical platform.

If cost is your number one factor in picking a shotgun platform ...its my opinion ...that the best long term choice in a gun is ..
a. budget around $ 500 - a good pump gun (Browning BPS, 870 Wingmaster, etc)
b. budget around $1,000 - up to $2,000 lots of semi-autos Beretta, Browning, Remington, Benelli, etc ...
c. budget $ 1,500 - $ 5,000 / Browning or Beretta Over Unders ...in lots of configurations ... There are lots of options in 20ga and 28ga O/U's in the 7.25 lb range as well ...light and easy to carry / great upland bird guns.
d. budget $5,000 - $ 10,000 / Perazzi and Blaser Over Unders...
e. over $10,000 - $ 35,000 / Kolar and Krieghoff Over Unders...( and Krieghoff makes a very nice SXS as well )...

The over $5,000 price range gets you into specialized guns ...and some fine craftmanship, and engraving, and fancy upgraded wood, etc - and while I think both Browning and Beretta make some fine guns ..this price range elevates it to a new level / that most of us will never need !.....but want is another issue.

But no, Over Unders are not just heavy and expensive ..and for Trap and Skeet.
BigJimP is offline  
Old September 14, 2011, 01:40 PM   #24
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Quote:
What is real use for over under. 2 shot heavy and expensive. For trap sheet?
SxS = 2 shots and well-made are VERY expensive
O/U and SxS can be used for hunting, clay games, or anything else

Good looks are a nice feature, but reliability, IMO, is a more important one
oneounceload is offline  
Old September 15, 2011, 01:09 PM   #25
bitttorrrent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 703
Thanks BigJim for excellent post. I think you must know a thing or too with that post count!

Yes, I am a novice to shotguns and was just trying to understand. I looked on a few sights and your price structure list looks to be what I found. I was thinking of just getting a Mossberg pump 500, but they felt a little cheap and many have jazzed them all up and then they sit in a closet.

So, I was thinking of SxS more as a quality piece then for just swat team performance characteristics which I would probably never need. Then I came to the O/U and was just curios as too its popularity vs. the SxS.

But I think you are right, the SxS's do have a shorter stock and I will test this out this weekend. I am trying a Remington 1100 and an unknown older SxS. The weekend before I had out a new Circuit Judge with the .45lc and .410 which is a smooth shooting and accurate gun.

Depending on what I like after shooting, I may get a nice semi-auto and an O/U. I don't want 15 shotguns - just a few.

I'll give my range report when I am back.
bitttorrrent is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12648 seconds with 8 queries