9MM 124 +P vs 147 gr standard pressure - Page 2

Mello2u · November 30, 2012, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Rifleman1952

9MM 124 +P vs 147 gr standard pressure

It would seem to me the 9mm 124 gr +P round beats the 147 gr standard pressure round regardless of season.

Consider what your goal is. You are choosing a projectile which is to cause incapacitation of a determined deadly threat as quickly as possible. Over 90% of the time the mechanism of incapacitation will be blood loss due to crushed vascular tissue (due to a human body's structure).

When the 9mm bullet impacts the threat it has a diameter of .355". You want that bullet to deform to a greater diameter as quickly as possible after impact, but not so much that it will have insufficient penetration to cause massive damage to induce massive hemorrhaging.

How much penetration is the subject of debate.

There is a chance with some hollow point bullet designs that clothing will plug the nose cavity and thereby prevent deformation. That will leave you with at maximum a .355 crush column. This is not optimum. More clothes, more chance the nose gets plugged.

Considering that the two cartridge loadings to which you refer have open hollow point bullet designs; I would reason that they are equally likely (or not) to suffer a plugged cavity due to clothing.

So choose the load which your gun digests best and you shoot best.

SFsc616171 · November 30, 2012, 07:24 PM

When i stated that I prefer, in 147 grain weight ammo, the Winchester USA9MM1, it is because:
first, it is not a standard fmj round nose bullet design. It is a Truncated Cone, ergo, with a smaller flat meplat, for the point of bullet impact. It is known that round nose bullet fmj's skirt around, and do not impart their energy very well. A truncated cone does impart its energy, and if something is in the way, oh well.
second, I know the fourth rule is watch your backstop. However, once you have placed your bullets in the intended target region, it is, is it not, the loss of blood flow, that stops the intended BG? It is correct in thinking that with cooler weather, more layers will be worn, both by us and the BG? YouTube has shown me that hollowpoints clog, in 9mm, and in .38 Special. Once clogged, they become modified fmj's.
third, the ammunition companies think they have us by the nether region, for those of us who cannot perform reloading, due to living environment. To spend "twenty bucks for twenty rounds", is as much robbery as obama's stimulus. "Oh,oh, you, you, better buy the biggest baddest ammo ya can git!" All expended ammunition should have flown to your training target, and the intended ten-x, or just above the guy's fist, on the old FBI target, OR, to the intended point of aim on that damnable day that you practice for! A miss could mean your life, whether with $40 a box, or $15 a box!

I'm an old fart. Ya's want me to use 9mm HP, ok, I got Remington old school L9MM1, 115 grain JHP. It is what is recommended for my older BHP, so I can use it in all my 'wundernines'. In the YouTube tests, this round does NOT clog. I'm not going to pay MR. Hornady his ransom, for his geek-designed bullets. You'se guys with your plastic we-a-pons can do that.

kcub · November 30, 2012, 08:53 PM

A deer shot in the heart or lungs doesn't run no mile whether it was a .22 a .357 a .458 or an arrow.

Luger_carbine · November 30, 2012, 08:59 PM

My point is you can't tell which bullets are going to clog with material by bullet weight or +P designation - you have to see how they actually perform in tests.

Guv · December 1, 2012, 09:28 AM

So what about people like Ed Sanow's real life police shooting statistics? The .357 Mag 125HP's reputations are not to be trusted? From what I gather the ballistic gel profile of this load is the bar that other loads try to duplicate. And a 90lb deer can go a very long way with a lethal wound from a high powered rifle.

Mello2u · December 1, 2012, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Guv

So what about people like Ed Sanow's real life police shooting statistics? The .357 Mag 125HP's reputations are not to be trusted?

The links below logically disputes Marshall & Sanow's conclusions.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/mars...crepancies.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/mars...l-analysis.htm

Read them and make an informed decision.

kcub · December 1, 2012, 03:13 PM

A deer shot in the lungs will drown in his own blood inside of 200 yards.

Maybe a gutshot deer runs a long way and then dies. That would be "lethal".

Coltman 77 · December 1, 2012, 04:35 PM

Here's a thread based on the best verifiable, scientific data currently available re: ballistics.

It's a wealth of good info. hope ya'll enjoy reading it.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

Dashunde · December 1, 2012, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Nobody is preventing our military from using JHP. They voluntarily choose to use FMJ.

Last time I checked NATO says JHP's of any sort violates the rules of war.
The philosophical objective is not to kill the opposing soldier, its to wound and take that individual out of the fight.
Hollow points do lots of surrounding tissue damage and can be very difficult for field surgeons to remove, particularly if they come apart and spread all over.
A NATO round is supposed to hold together and retain most all of its mass for easy removal.
JHP's also don’t always get through field packs or other items a soldier may have attached.

As for the OP's question...
I'd opt for the lighter +p for cc use, rumor has it that faster lighter bullets expand more rapidly.

Guv · December 2, 2012, 10:19 AM

So the "ammo" company's have not been using the .357/125 as a benchmark for new defense loads? Is this load's reputation based on fiction or fact? It does seem like in short barrels that the 124+p+ 9mm and the .357/125 are pretty equal, and that this 9mm load is highly regarded.

Mello2u · December 3, 2012, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Guv

So the "ammo" company's have not been using the .357/125 as a benchmark for new defense loads? Is this load's reputation based on fiction or fact?

Yes, based on both.

November 30, 2012, 07:24 PM	#27
SFsc616171 Junior member Join Date: June 9, 2011 Location: "In the swamps of Montana" with the gators Posts: 84	9MM 124 +P vs 147 gr standard pressure When i stated that I prefer, in 147 grain weight ammo, the Winchester USA9MM1, it is because: first, it is not a standard fmj round nose bullet design. It is a Truncated Cone, ergo, with a smaller flat meplat, for the point of bullet impact. It is known that round nose bullet fmj's skirt around, and do not impart their energy very well. A truncated cone does impart its energy, and if something is in the way, oh well. second, I know the fourth rule is watch your backstop. However, once you have placed your bullets in the intended target region, it is, is it not, the loss of blood flow, that stops the intended BG? It is correct in thinking that with cooler weather, more layers will be worn, both by us and the BG? YouTube has shown me that hollowpoints clog, in 9mm, and in .38 Special. Once clogged, they become modified fmj's. third, the ammunition companies think they have us by the nether region, for those of us who cannot perform reloading, due to living environment. To spend "twenty bucks for twenty rounds", is as much robbery as obama's stimulus. "Oh,oh, you, you, better buy the biggest baddest ammo ya can git!" All expended ammunition should have flown to your training target, and the intended ten-x, or just above the guy's fist, on the old FBI target, OR, to the intended point of aim on that damnable day that you practice for! A miss could mean your life, whether with $40 a box, or $15 a box! I'm an old fart. Ya's want me to use 9mm HP, ok, I got Remington old school L9MM1, 115 grain JHP. It is what is recommended for my older BHP, so I can use it in all my 'wundernines'. In the YouTube tests, this round does NOT clog. I'm not going to pay MR. Hornady his ransom, for his geek-designed bullets. You'se guys with your plastic we-a-pons can do that.

December 1, 2012, 04:35 PM	#33
Coltman 77 Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2009 Location: NC Posts: 1,244	Here's a thread based on the best verifiable, scientific data currently available re: ballistics. It's a wealth of good info. hope ya'll enjoy reading it. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm __________________ "A man can be destroyed but not defeated". Ernest Hemingway Protect our 2nd Amendment Rights -- Join the NRA

November 30, 2012, 08:53 PM	#28
kcub Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 3,318	A deer shot in the heart or lungs doesn't run no mile whether it was a .22 a .357 a .458 or an arrow.

November 30, 2012, 08:59 PM	#29
Luger_carbine Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2012 Posts: 389	My point is you can't tell which bullets are going to clog with material by bullet weight or +P designation - you have to see how they actually perform in tests.

December 1, 2012, 09:28 AM	#30
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	So what about people like Ed Sanow's real life police shooting statistics? The .357 Mag 125HP's reputations are not to be trusted? From what I gather the ballistic gel profile of this load is the bar that other loads try to duplicate. And a 90lb deer can go a very long way with a lethal wound from a high powered rifle.

December 1, 2012, 03:13 PM	#32
kcub Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 3,318	A deer shot in the lungs will drown in his own blood inside of 200 yards. Maybe a gutshot deer runs a long way and then dies. That would be "lethal".

December 2, 2012, 10:19 AM	#35
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	So the "ammo" company's have not been using the .357/125 as a benchmark for new defense loads? Is this load's reputation based on fiction or fact? It does seem like in *short* barrels that the 124+p+ 9mm and the .357/125 are pretty equal, and that this 9mm load is highly regarded.