Annealing with Induction Heater?

[Bill DeShivs]

You heat the exposed case necks until they are a dull red. Brass conducts heat nicely, and the annealing is consistent. Once brass is annealed, it won't get any softer-it melts, so annealing with a propane torch and water is 100% efficient. All the gizmos and gadgets are simply a waste of money.

[Bill DeShivs]

"I do as Metal shows in his pics, but I use 2 torches aimed at each other. Got deep well sockets,cut to the length I need and come from underside of torches.
I keep a bucket with Ice water next to me, drop them in and done. From there I took a 12 x 12 3/4 inch plywood board. Pounded 4 inch finishing nails in every inch square. Put brass on nails, turn oven to 175. As soon as it reaches 175 i turn it off,put board in oven and I have brass ready to prime in 20 minutes.
I agree with most- Don't over think a very simple process. We are not recreating the wheel here."

Yes, you seem to be. 2 torches, sockets?
Ice water is not necessary and it offers no advantage over room temperature (or even hot) water.
Just put the cases, upright, into a pan of water with the case necks exposed. Heat with a propane torch until the neck turns a dull red. You don't even have to tip the cases over in the water. Once the necks turn dull red they are annealed. Nothing further is needed.

[Bill DeShivs]

I have been reading through some of these annealing threads and I'm amazed.
I don't reload, but I thoroughly understand the process. I also have been working metals for 40 years.
You guys are getting taken to the cleaners! Annealing brass is as simple a process as there is. You don't "partially anneal" cases, you simply anneal them.
Even heat treating simple carbon steel is easy, but it's rocket science compared to annealing brass!

[Metal god]

You don't "partially anneal" cases, you simply anneal them.

To be clear which are you saying ? You "can't" or should "not" partially anneal cases ?

I'm glad someone that works with metals for a living is here .

Is it true that brass starts to be annealed at 450* ?

Is it true that brass is fully annealed at 650* ?

If you are looking for a specific hardness for the brass to be . Does the temperature the brass reached effect how soft or hard the brass is when finished ?

Can you or should you anneal a 223 case different then a 10lb block of brass ?

If you only want to anneal a small portion of a piece of brass . Would that be considered Partially annealing the brass ?

[4runnerman]

Ice water is not necessary and it offers no advantage over room temperature (or even hot) water.
Just put the cases, upright, into a pan of water with the case necks exposed. Heat with a propane torch until the neck turns a dull red. You don't even have to tip the cases over in the water. Once the necks turn dull red they are annealed. Nothing further is needed.


Bill- I have tried the standing cases up in water.. Not sure about most here, but when I do that the cases tip over when I bring the torch to them. Also I have found that you get un-even heating when using just one torch. The water and socket set up works like a charm. I get perfect annealed cases every time. I am no pro, but by not cooling in water,will the heat not make it down to the base?.
My sockets are cut to the length of each case,so that just a small portion of the shoulder sticks over the top of the socket.

[Bill DeShivs]

To be clear which are you saying ? You "can't" or should "not" partially anneal cases ?

I'm glad someone that works with metals for a living is here .

"Is it true that brass starts to be annealed at 450* ?

Is it true that brass is fully annealed at 650* ? "

When it turns dull red, it's fully annealed. I never bothered to measure the temperature.

"If you are looking for a specific hardness for the brass to be . Does the temperature the brass reached effect how soft or hard the brass is when finished ?"
Yes, but I suspect you want to fully anneal the necks.

"Can you or should you anneal a 223 case different then a 10lb block of brass ?"

Time and temperature. Of course a thin .223 case will heat faster than a 10 lb block.

"If you only want to anneal a small portion of a piece of brass . Would that be considered Partially annealing the brass ?"

Possibly, but I was referring to annealing to different hardnesses. Regardless-you only want to anneal case necks, not the body.
__________________

[Bill DeShivs]

"Bill- I have tried the standing cases up in water.. Not sure about most here, but when I do that the cases tip over when I bring the torch to them. Also I have found that you get un-even heating when using just one torch. The water and socket set up works like a charm. I get perfect annealed cases every time. I am no pro, but by not cooling in water,will the heat not make it down to the base?.
My sockets are cut to the length of each case,so that just a small portion of the shoulder sticks over the top of the socket."

If you insist on annealing that way, yes drop them in water to stop the heat migration. It may not be necessary, but it won't hurt.
If the cases are blown over in the water, turn the torch down!
Uneven heating with one torch: you have apparently discovered a phenomenon that has eluded reloaders for 100 years! Just angle the torch flame downward so that it covers the entire case mouth.

Or, just keep on using sockets, drills, multiple torches, etc.

[Metal god]

There is no need to drop in water or do something to stop the migration of heat . As soon as the torch is removed the case starts to cool . Now that is not to say the colder lower section of the case will not heat up a bit . As long as you heat the neck and shoulder rather quickly the migration will be minor as far as temperature .

I did a test to see if i could get the head of a 308 case to hot buy only applying the flame to the neck and shoulder .


That picture shows I applied tempilaq of 750* just below the shoulder and 450* at the head . Although I was able to get the 450* indicator to melt at the head . It was only after the flame was on the case for 15+ seconds and the neck and shoulder got cherry red . My conclusion is/was that if you use the torch method at the neck and shoulders . It is just about impossible to get the head to hot . Only because If the head got to hot , The neck and shoulder would be WAY over annealed trashing the case anyway . Now that would not be the case if the case and or portion of the case was slowly annealed over several minutes . In that case the migration of high heat would reach the head .

[Bill DeShivs]

How do you "over-anneal?"
Either the brass is annealed, or it isn't. You don't "temper" brass.
The only way to over anneal is to melt the case.

[Metal god]

Well I guess your right as far as brass as a whole . How ever when anneal rifle brass i think it's reasonable to say if you annealed the case to the point that the head is to soft to be safe . you have over annealed the case or heated the neck to 1100* would be over annealing the case . Below are a couple articles explaining in more detail why brass as a whole and firearm cartridge brass are different in the way you anneal them .

Since this is a firearm forum . It's likely when you hear someone say annealing brass . They mean cartridge brass and not just a random piece of metal . There are some specifics to annealing a firearm cartridge that may not apply to the general process of annealing metals .

It's like trying to say you can't over cook a steak because it's either cooked or it's not .

http://bisonballistics.com/articles/...rass-annealing

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

[F. Guffey]

You guys are getting taken to the cleaners! Annealing brass is as simple a process as there is.

Bill DeShivs, I agree, simple rules and there are not many rules. BUT! There must be more to it than that.

F. Guffey

[Bill DeShivs]

No, there isn't. Keep the rest of the case cool, and heat the neck to dull red. As soon as you reach dull red, remove heat.
You can make it as scientific as you want, or as simple as I have explained. Tempilaq is not required.

[Metal god]

You guys are getting taken to the cleaners! Annealing brass is as simple a process as there is. You don't "partially anneal" cases, you simply anneal them.

When it turns dull red, it's fully annealed. I never bothered to measure the temperature.

Yes, but I suspect you want to fully anneal the necks.

Bill : are both these quotes yours ? I'm having a hard time seeing where you quote someone in your post and where your comments start .

There is a quotes icon at the top of the page you can use and it will place things you wish to quote in a box or you can just use ( quotations )

[F. Guffey]

Bill : are both these quotes yours ?

I quoted Bill DeShivs, I did not feel it necessary to lecture him on quotes, he has 7,000 post. Years ago I took a look at annealing, I decided there were factors, simple factors and rules, I even thought of the rules as simple.

AND THEN? I decided helping would not help.

F. Guffey

[Metal god]

he has 7,000 post.

It was not a lecture or even snarky . I was simply asking for some help .

Guffey : Please don't put tone or ATTITUDE to words that have none . If bill feels I was rude or snarky he can say so him self .

I really have a hard time seeing where the quotes stop and his thoughts start . I have on more then one occasion quoted him to only realize what I quoted was contradicting and figured it was not likely he was contradicting him self in the same post . How ever the quotes above I believe he said do seem to be contradicting . The only real issue I have with this is the first quote was what set us on this path of debate .

Annealing brass is as simple a process as there is. You don't "partially anneal" cases, you simply anneal them

To then make to more comments later talking about wanting the brass fully annealed would seem to say you can partially anneal which goes against the first quote .

[Clark]

Google search: American Rifleman September 1962 William Dresser "case neck annealing".
I have the article.
He is a 700 degree crayon guy.

[4runnerman]

Uneven heating with one torch: you have apparently discovered a phenomenon that has eluded reloaders for 100 years! Just angle the torch flame downward so that it covers the entire case mouth.

Bill- Just full of questions here- I have tried that also And while in thought it might look like it works, In reality it does not. What ever side you have the torch on, That side is going to get hotter faster than the other. It will heat the other side-True, But not as fast and not even. Coming from a angel is better,but still does not work that great. That is why I use 2 torches. Even heating all around. All high grade Annealing Machines I have seen rotate the brass for even heating. I could get away with one torch, but I would still want to rotate the brass.

[neonjohn]

Greetings. A friend pointed me to this thread. I shoot metallic silhouette with a custom built .308 bolt handgun. I'm also the Chief Engineer of Fluxeon.com, a company that manufacturer induction heaters. We offer a heater specifically for annealing brass called the Annie. The induction heater used in the Annie is Open Source here so if anyone wants to roll their own, they can.

Perhaps I can answer some questions that have arisen in this thread.

Induction heating is vastly superior to flame annealing in repeatability and speed. I designed the Annie to heat a .30 cal case in 1.5 seconds. A .50BMG takes approximately 12 seconds. That is long enough for the built-in timer perform a highly repeatable heat cycle.

The heating stops at the edge of the magnetic flux (essentially the edge of the ferrite flux concentrator). Since the heating occurs so rapidly, the heat does not spread outside the desired zone.

I neck-size only with my .308 ammo. So I inserted a wad of Frax (heat-proof alumina felt) into the flux concentrator so that when a case is inserted and is touching the Frax stop, only the neck is in the magnetic gap. The cycle time is about 0.8 seconds and the heat stops where the neck meets the shoulder.

I have found that quenching has absolutely no effect on accuracy which is what we're interested in.

The design of the work coil/flux concentrator of the Annie is such that it can easily be retrofitted to flame-based automatic annealing machine. Giraud Machine is about to introduce an induction version of their automatic annealer. You can see it in action here.

Someone asked how the heat is confined to a specific area. That is the job of the ferrite flux concentrator. The photos on the Fluxeon site show a slotted toroid. We've now gone to a two piece rectangular concentrator so that the gap can be adjusted for the particular case. We supply pieces to go from .223 and below to .50BMG.

Other than speed and reproducibility, the other major advantage of induction heating is that there is no flame around the reloading bench. Only the case neck itself gets hot so there is practically no risk of fire or the ignition of powder. I have mine sitting on my bench just a few feet away from my press. Far enough away that there won't be any tramp powder laying around but close enough that I can roll my stool over to start an annealing run.

I'm not going to even dip a toe into the temperature argument. I'll just say that I use 750 deg F and that has worked fine for many years.

If you have any more questions about induction annealing, feel free to ask.

John

[F. Guffey]

He is a 700 degree crayon guy.

And that is it, 700 degree guy?

I'm not going to even dip a toe into the temperature argument. I'll just say that I use 750 deg F and that has worked fine for many years.

And that is all there is? 750 degree?

F. Guffey

[Metal god]

And that is all there is? 750 degree?

No of course not Guffey , there are rules . If you follow the rules then you will be in line with the rules . How hard is this annealing thing to understand really

[4runnerman]

Now I got to get me one of those babys.

[F. Guffey]

How hard is this annealing thing to understand really

If you follow the rules then you will be in line with the rules

Before that:

I'm also the Chief Engineer of Fluxeon.com, a company that manufacturer induction heaters. We offer a heater specifically for annealing brass called the Annie. The induction heater used in the Annie is Open Source here so if anyone wants to roll their own, they can.

Quote:
He is a 700 degree crayon guy.

And that is it, 700 degree guy?


Quote:
I'm not going to even dip a toe into the temperature argument. I'll just say that I use 750 deg F and that has worked fine for many years.

And that is all there is? 750 degree?

F. Guffey

Again, I am not the fan of reloaders jumping in from a dead stop to a dead run without fundamentals.

F. Guffey

[Metal god]

Again, I am not the fan of reloaders jumping in from a dead stop to a dead run without fundamentals.

That's where the rules come in . If you follow the proper rules . They will cover the fundamentals . What's the problem ? It seems simple , there are rules . Do not color outside the rules and you will be in keeping with the rules .

I thought you liked rules ? It's like playing in traffic , stick to the rules and you will survive . This seems pretty straight forward to me . Stick to the rules and you will be fine .

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

How do you "over-anneal?"
Either the brass is annealed, or it isn't. You don't "temper" brass.
The only way to over anneal is to melt the case.

Bill,

Mete gave the answer. What happens in full annealing (dead soft brass) is grain growth has occurred that compromises the tensile strength of the brass. You'll notice that a lot of folks can get a dozen or even twenty reloads out of a new case, but then say they have to anneal every third or fourth time they reload or the necks start to crack. That's because they overdid the annealing as compared to what the factory does, or they'd be getting factory levels of reloadings before case necks started to split.

Strictly speaking, case necks don't need to be annealed. They only need to be stress-relieved to eliminate work hardening. That requires a lower temperature that doesn't reduce tensile strength appreciably. The term of art used for stress relieving brass is "partial annealing". I don't know why they came up with that rather than just calling it "stress-relieving", but information at copper.org or one of the other industry association sites I found some time back said that's what they use.

Below is a plot for one hour temperature exposure time. It makes the difference between stress and full annealing more clear. With the shorter annealing times used with cases, you have to get the temperature higher to get the same result, but the general consensus I've found is that by the time a torch makes the cases visibly red in color, you've blown past the stress relieving level. 650°F indicators usually work on a neck. They assume you will overshoot and actually get to 700-750°F by the time you see and react to the temperature indicator change. A 450°-475° indicator can be used below the shoulder, like Hornady's kit does, on the assumption it shows you when you want heat to stop traveling down the case.