Minor son carrying pistol on my property

Colvin · September 25, 2011, 01:53 PM

I assume that there would be no problem, but I was wondering if there's any problem with having my 17 y/o carry a handgun in our military shop, open or concealed. I live in Michigan. He's trained and knowledgable and I obviously don't have any problem, is there any way we could be held liable for shootin an intruder if it's by a minor? Thanks.

Pahoo · September 25, 2011, 02:04 PM

I know an LE/Lawyer that always says; "If you're going to walk on ice, make sure the ice is thick". ......

Be Safe !!!

shortwave · September 25, 2011, 02:19 PM

Whole lotta potential legal issue's stated in your vague post.

IMO, you really need to talk to a Michigan att'y specializing in gun laws and business.

alloy · September 25, 2011, 02:25 PM

Interesting thread. Do you mean military shop as in surplus store?

Colvin · September 25, 2011, 04:19 PM

We sell mostly antique military items, with some surplus- including guns.

jgcoastie · September 25, 2011, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colvin

I assume that there would be no problem, but I was wondering if there's any problem with having my 17 y/o carry a handgun in our military shop, open or concealed. I live in Michigan.

You assume wrong. Never assume. Kudos for checking it out prior to letting him do so. According to the following link, the minimum age to open carry in MI is 18. Given that your son is 17, he could, in theory, be charged as an adult as well...

http://opencarry.org/age.html

According to this document from handgunlaw.us, the minimum age to obtain a concealed carry permit is 21. You can also find the link to the MSP website concerning firearms within the document.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colvin

He's trained and knowledgable and I obviously don't have any problem, is there any way we could be held liable for shootin an intruder if it's by a minor? Thanks.

Trained and knowledgable makes no difference, really... And one can always be held liable for shooting an intruder (unless you're no-billed by the grand jury in states where you cannot be sued in civil court if cleard by the criminal court system).

American Made · September 25, 2011, 06:44 PM

http://www.michbar.org/publications/pdfs/y&l.pdf
Can I carry a weapon with me for protection?

No, not if you intend to use the weapon. It is against Michigan
law to attack someone with a dangerous weapon, or to have the
dangerous weapon in your possession if you intend to use it.

What force am I allowed to use to protect myself?

The law says you may use any force that is reasonable under the
circumstances, but you have a duty to retreat before using deadly force
outside your home or occupied vehicle. If someone breaks into your
home at night, or tries to hijack your vehicle while you are in it, and you
are in reasonable fear for your life, deadly force may be appropriate.

>>> duty to retreat before using deadly force
outside your home or occupied vehicle<<< This is the key part

raisitup · September 25, 2011, 07:16 PM

I am not a lawyer

I think carrying concealed inside the business (unless he is somehow part owner) would be against Michigan law (750.227)

I think carrying openly is the more interesting question. Michigan law doesn't allow anyone to sell to a minor but I couldn't find anything regarding possession. The GCA seems to have an exception that allows a firearm and ammunition to be "temporarily" transferred to a juvenile for employment purposes:

(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a
juvenile to knowingly possess--
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in
a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply to--
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or
ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use
of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the
handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by
the juvenile-
(i) in the course of employment, in the
course of ranching or farming related to
activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on
property used for ranching or farming at which
the juvenile, with the permission of the property
owner or lessee, is performing activities related
to the operation of the farm or ranch), target
practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in
the safe and lawful use of a handgun;

So again, I am not a lawyer, nor do I ever intend to be one. Just throwing this out for discussion purposes.

Ryan

raisitup · September 25, 2011, 07:32 PM

AmericanMade's

Quote:

Can I carry a weapon with me for protection?

No, not if you intend to use the weapon. It is against Michigan
law to attack someone with a dangerous weapon, or to have the
dangerous weapon in your possession if you intend to use it.

What force am I allowed to use to protect myself?

The law says you may use any force that is reasonable under the
circumstances, but you have a duty to retreat before using deadly force
outside your home or occupied vehicle. If someone breaks into your
home at night, or tries to hijack your vehicle while you are in it, and you
are in reasonable fear for your life, deadly force may be appropriate.

Does the State Bar of Michigan have some sort of agenda or what?

A big "huh?" to question 1. It asks if a weapon can be carried for protection, then answers in the negative stating it's illegal to "attack someone".

As to question 2, current Michigan law is below, there doesn't appear to be a duty to retreat in what would be considered "life or death" situations. This was in fact updating with a 2006 law, the michbar.org document is dated 2008

780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.

Sec. 2.

(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

Ryan<----NOT a lawyer

Colvin · September 25, 2011, 08:15 PM

Thanks for the support. A couple things:

He would only be armed if I were there. I believe it is lawful to supervise a minor if they are handling a pistol on your property.

raisitup · September 25, 2011, 09:16 PM

As others have said, best not to believe or assume as being wrong could have dire consequences. BTW, where in MI are you? I grew up in SW MI, went to MSU and was in the area for about 10 years then worked near Detroit for a year and a half before finally moving to sunny Florida.

Ryan

**Aguila Blanca** · September 25, 2011, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colvin

He would only be armed if I were there. I believe it is lawful to supervise a minor if they are handling a pistol on your property.

The laws cited so far do not appear to care whether or not you are present. "Supervision" by an adult is not a prerequisite to carrying by a minor.

And do not confuse "handling" -- as in the context of plinking or target shooting -- with carrying for self defense, and possibly shooting someone in self defense. If you and he are in the store, you are in the rear stockroom, he is manning the cash register at the front counter, and he has to draw down on a robber -- you are not in a position to "supervise" him.

MLeake · September 25, 2011, 10:48 PM

Check state law.

Massad Ayoob carried a 1911 at age 12, when working in his family's jewelry store in NH, with blessing of the local police chief.

Times are different now, but what you are suggesting isn't exactly unprecedented.

Consult a Michigan attorney, would be my advice.

Eghad · September 25, 2011, 11:03 PM

also...

most sights contain a dislclaimer

Quote:

We make every effort to provide correct information on this site. However, the legal landscape surrounding open carry is fluid and subject to a myriad of political influences in the various states. Therefore, any and all information you glean from this site should be independently verified!

always check with local authorities

Isk · September 25, 2011, 11:55 PM

Man, I wish people would stop coming on here for legal advice. See, the problem is that the internet is not a good tool for this kind of research...particularly when it comes to current statutes. Also, don't forget that the statute is interpreted by the case law...if you don't know how to research and understand the case law, don't rely on the statute you found.

And for those that like to reply by stating they "are not a lawyer, but"...keep in mind that when you give legal advice, with or without a disclaimer, you are practicing law, and most states have a big problem with that.

If you are asking a serious legal question like the OP, please seek the professional advice of a competent attorney located in your state. It is safer for everyone that way.

youngunz4life · September 26, 2011, 06:03 AM

but

though it is prudent to get legal advice instead of over the internet, over the phone w/granny(mom-in-law), from your buddy at the bar or watercooler @ work, and so-on, that doesn't mean someone like the OP can't ask questions for opinions on an issue. It is his responsibility to verify the facts before employing his plan.

Chris84 · September 26, 2011, 08:41 AM

This is interesting to me. I have never seen a post about minors actually carrying on here befor. Now as to the op's ? I would for sure be seeking an attorney to tell me for sure. I am sure that since it is a business there are a bunch of laws that could of importants to this case.

On the other hand though, I started carrying on the farm when I was about 9 I think. My son who is 10 carries on our farm now. Not so much for protection from a human but from those rapid coons, those bobcats and the mean a** copperheads and rattlesnakes. I will not let him carry anywhere else and not because of him but because of the rest of the world.

I would really like to hear what an attorney says about this. I am almost certain that concealed is going to be a no go since here in gun friendly KY you can not carry concealed even in your own home unless you have a ccdw, in open I would like to know. I know my son can do so for hunting as long as I am there to take control of the weapon if the need ariases.

As to asking legal advise on here I agree that you should also get it from a professional attorney but I dont see nothing wrong with asking here too just to see what other think and see there opions of the topic I mean that is the point to a forum. To get others opions on a given topic.

American Made · September 26, 2011, 09:46 AM

The problem could be that nobody understands "the law"....

I've talked with several attorneys and everyone of them understands the law different. It called grey area ... it helps keep trial attorneys in business.

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."
--Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819.

You could call Larry Pratt of GOA and ask him. I know I've talked with him before

Colvin · September 26, 2011, 09:47 AM

Thanks. To clarify, I'm not planning on using this forum's advice to gauge my decision... just wanted to see if anyone had done it. I'll ask a couple of attorneys and check precedents.

bitttorrrent · September 26, 2011, 10:21 AM

I don't think kids should be allowed to drive until 18, so i would second that for carrying. No offense to your son who is probably capable, but at that age I do not think is a good idea. I know your circumstances are different in that there is risk with being in the store and selling firearms etc. Not an easy dicision.

On another note, where in MI are you near or name of store. If close to Sawyer,MI I would consider stopping in to see what you have some day.

csmsss · September 26, 2011, 10:28 AM

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe the act of possessing any sort of firearm on one's property is comprehended under the laws pertaining to "carrying". Whether the act of possessing a firearm on one's own property is legal or not is determined by the statutes covering possession, an entirely different legal precept.

American Made · September 26, 2011, 10:49 AM

You could always move to Idaho >

The young man in this story owns his own computer repair business...so, we toss work his way. There are some areas of this Country that still honor our Constitution....

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/break...y.asp?ID=10097

POST FALLS – Zach Doty typically wears a tie and dress shirt to church. But lately, a new accessory of his is raising alarm in Post Falls.

After turning 18 last month, the Post Falls teenager began strapping a loaded 9 mm Glock 19 handgun to his belt every day. He totes it in full view to Bible studies, the public library, city parks and neighborhood stores and on walks around town.

His 15-year-old brother, Stephen, has joined him, carrying a loaded Ruger .22-caliber rifle slung over his shoulder.

The brothers, who are home-schooled, say they're flexing their Second Amendment right, which allows citizens to bear arms. They say they're protecting themselves and others, deterring crime and making a statement about constitutional freedoms.

"If you don't exercise a right, eventually it will go away," Zach Doty said last week, a handgun tucked in a holster on his hip. "I'd like to raise people's awareness that it's a right, and I hope to encourage others to exercise that right."

raisitup · September 26, 2011, 02:26 PM

Isk's

Quote:

And for those that like to reply by stating they "are not a lawyer, but"...keep in mind that when you give legal advice, with or without a disclaimer, you are practicing law, and most states have a big problem with that.

The above is just about as much "legal advice" as anyone else on this thread, including me, gave. This is a discussion forum. Referencing some statutes and commenting upon them, at the same time not advising anyone to take any specific course of action (other than what's been said numerous times, "see a lawyer") isn't practicing law. It's having an academic discussion.

Ryan

hermannr · September 26, 2011, 02:47 PM

You need to read the MI code carefully, find out as to what "exceptions" there are to "can an under-18 year old minor carry".

In WA state, what you are proposing would be perfectly legal, OC or CC, as long as he is on your property. RCW 9.41.042 has a whole list of "exceptions" for "children" (aka minors) and when and how they can carry on and off your own property.

I would be very comfortable with whatever "exceptions" MI has in their law for minors, and at the most would only inform the Chief of Police what you plan to do pursent to MI law XXX.XXX.XXX if you think he might complain.

I have found that when you cite a specific law, they generally do not have a problem if you have the specific law to back your action up.

**Aguila Blanca** · September 26, 2011, 03:53 PM

Let's keep in mind that the "property" under discussion is not Colvin's residence. It is his place of business. As such, it is different from his residence, where people enter by invitation only. He operates a retail business, which by definition is open to the public.

I do not pretend to have read the laws of all states. The laws of many states allow an owner of a business to carry a firearm at his "place of business" -- note, NOT "place of employment."

I respectfully suggest that the OP really needs to ask a lawyer in his state.

September 25, 2011, 01:53 PM	#1
Colvin Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Posts: 127	Minor son carrying pistol on my property I assume that there would be no problem, but I was wondering if there's any problem with having my 17 y/o carry a handgun in our military shop, open or concealed. I live in Michigan. He's trained and knowledgable and I obviously don't have any problem, is there any way we could be held liable for shootin an intruder if it's by a minor? Thanks.

September 25, 2011, 02:04 PM	#2
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	WOW !!! I know an LE/Lawyer that always says; "If you're going to walk on ice, make sure the ice is thick". ...... Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing. Last edited by Pahoo; September 25, 2011 at 04:12 PM.

September 25, 2011, 02:19 PM	#3
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Whole lotta potential legal issue's stated in your vague post. IMO, you really need to talk to a Michigan att'y specializing in gun laws and business. Last edited by shortwave; September 25, 2011 at 02:34 PM.

September 26, 2011, 06:03 AM	#16
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	I do understand what you're saying + can appreciate it but though it is prudent to get legal advice instead of over the internet, over the phone w/granny(mom-in-law), from your buddy at the bar or watercooler @ work, and so-on, that doesn't mean someone like the OP can't ask questions for opinions on an issue. It is his responsibility to verify the facts before employing his plan. __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

September 26, 2011, 10:49 AM	#22
American Made Member Join Date: September 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 92	You could always move to Idaho > The young man in this story owns his own computer repair business...so, we toss work his way. There are some areas of this Country that still honor our Constitution.... http://www.spokesmanreview.com/break...y.asp?ID=10097 POST FALLS – Zach Doty typically wears a tie and dress shirt to church. But lately, a new accessory of his is raising alarm in Post Falls. After turning 18 last month, the Post Falls teenager began strapping a loaded 9 mm Glock 19 handgun to his belt every day. He totes it in full view to Bible studies, the public library, city parks and neighborhood stores and on walks around town. His 15-year-old brother, Stephen, has joined him, carrying a loaded Ruger .22-caliber rifle slung over his shoulder. The brothers, who are home-schooled, say they're flexing their Second Amendment right, which allows citizens to bear arms. They say they're protecting themselves and others, deterring crime and making a statement about constitutional freedoms. "If you don't exercise a right, eventually it will go away," Zach Doty said last week, a handgun tucked in a holster on his hip. "I'd like to raise people's awareness that it's a right, and I hope to encourage others to exercise that right." Last edited by American Made; September 26, 2011 at 10:55 AM.

September 25, 2011, 04:19 PM	#5
Colvin Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Posts: 127	We sell mostly antique military items, with some surplus- including guns.

September 25, 2011, 06:44 PM	#7
American Made Member Join Date: September 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 92	http://www.michbar.org/publications/pdfs/y&l.pdf Can I carry a weapon with me for protection? No, not if you intend to use the weapon. It is against Michigan law to attack someone with a dangerous weapon, or to have the dangerous weapon in your possession if you intend to use it. What force am I allowed to use to protect myself? The law says you may use any force that is reasonable under the circumstances, but you have a duty to retreat before using deadly force outside your home or occupied vehicle. If someone breaks into your home at night, or tries to hijack your vehicle while you are in it, and you are in reasonable fear for your life, deadly force may be appropriate. >>> duty to retreat before using deadly force outside your home or occupied vehicle<<< This is the key part

September 25, 2011, 07:16 PM	#8
raisitup Member Join Date: January 2, 2010 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 56	I am not a lawyer I think carrying concealed inside the business (unless he is somehow part owner) would be against Michigan law (750.227) I think carrying openly is the more interesting question. Michigan law doesn't allow anyone to sell to a minor but I couldn't find anything regarding possession. The GCA seems to have an exception that allows a firearm and ammunition to be "temporarily" transferred to a juvenile for employment purposes: (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess-- (A) a handgun; or (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun. (3) This subsection does not apply to-- (A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile- (i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun; So again, I am not a lawyer, nor do I ever intend to be one. Just throwing this out for discussion purposes. Ryan

September 25, 2011, 08:15 PM	#10
Colvin Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Posts: 127	Thanks for the support. A couple things: He would only be armed if I were there. I believe it is lawful to supervise a minor if they are handling a pistol on your property.

September 25, 2011, 09:16 PM	#11
raisitup Member Join Date: January 2, 2010 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 56	As others have said, best not to believe or assume as being wrong could have dire consequences. BTW, where in MI are you? I grew up in SW MI, went to MSU and was in the area for about 10 years then worked near Detroit for a year and a half before finally moving to sunny Florida. Ryan

September 25, 2011, 10:48 PM	#13
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Check state law. Massad Ayoob carried a 1911 at age 12, when working in his family's jewelry store in NH, with blessing of the local police chief. Times are different now, but what you are suggesting isn't exactly unprecedented. Consult a Michigan attorney, would be my advice.

September 25, 2011, 11:55 PM	#15
Isk Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2011 Location: Alaska Posts: 206	Man, I wish people would stop coming on here for legal advice. See, the problem is that the internet is not a good tool for this kind of research...particularly when it comes to current statutes. Also, don't forget that the statute is interpreted by the case law...if you don't know how to research and understand the case law, don't rely on the statute you found. And for those that like to reply by stating they "are not a lawyer, but"...keep in mind that when you give legal advice, with or without a disclaimer, you are practicing law, and most states have a big problem with that. If you are asking a serious legal question like the OP, please seek the professional advice of a competent attorney located in your state. It is safer for everyone that way.

September 26, 2011, 08:41 AM	#17
Chris84 Member Join Date: August 19, 2011 Location: Kentucky Posts: 36	This is interesting to me. I have never seen a post about minors actually carrying on here befor. Now as to the op's ? I would for sure be seeking an attorney to tell me for sure. I am sure that since it is a business there are a bunch of laws that could of importants to this case. On the other hand though, I started carrying on the farm when I was about 9 I think. My son who is 10 carries on our farm now. Not so much for protection from a human but from those rapid coons, those bobcats and the mean a** copperheads and rattlesnakes. I will not let him carry anywhere else and not because of him but because of the rest of the world. I would really like to hear what an attorney says about this. I am almost certain that concealed is going to be a no go since here in gun friendly KY you can not carry concealed even in your own home unless you have a ccdw, in open I would like to know. I know my son can do so for hunting as long as I am there to take control of the weapon if the need ariases. As to asking legal advise on here I agree that you should also get it from a professional attorney but I dont see nothing wrong with asking here too just to see what other think and see there opions of the topic I mean that is the point to a forum. To get others opions on a given topic.

September 26, 2011, 09:46 AM	#18
American Made Member Join Date: September 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 92	The problem could be that nobody understands "the law".... I've talked with several attorneys and everyone of them understands the law different. It called grey area ... it helps keep trial attorneys in business. "Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819. You could call Larry Pratt of GOA and ask him. I know I've talked with him before

September 26, 2011, 09:47 AM	#19
Colvin Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Posts: 127	Thanks. To clarify, I'm not planning on using this forum's advice to gauge my decision... just wanted to see if anyone had done it. I'll ask a couple of attorneys and check precedents.

September 26, 2011, 10:21 AM	#20
bitttorrrent Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Chicago Posts: 703	I don't think kids should be allowed to drive until 18, so i would second that for carrying. No offense to your son who is probably capable, but at that age I do not think is a good idea. I know your circumstances are different in that there is risk with being in the store and selling firearms etc. Not an easy dicision. On another note, where in MI are you near or name of store. If close to Sawyer,MI I would consider stopping in to see what you have some day.

September 26, 2011, 10:28 AM	#21
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe the act of possessing any sort of firearm on one's property is comprehended under the laws pertaining to "carrying". Whether the act of possessing a firearm on one's own property is legal or not is determined by the statutes covering possession, an entirely different legal precept.

September 26, 2011, 02:47 PM	#24
hermannr Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2011 Posts: 730	You need to read the MI code carefully, find out as to what "exceptions" there are to "can an under-18 year old minor carry". In WA state, what you are proposing would be perfectly legal, OC or CC, as long as he is on your property. RCW 9.41.042 has a whole list of "exceptions" for "children" (aka minors) and when and how they can carry on and off your own property. I would be very comfortable with whatever "exceptions" MI has in their law for minors, and at the most would only inform the Chief of Police what you plan to do pursent to MI law XXX.XXX.XXX if you think he might complain. I have found that when you cite a specific law, they generally do not have a problem if you have the specific law to back your action up.

September 26, 2011, 03:53 PM	#25
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	Let's keep in mind that the "property" under discussion is not Colvin's residence. It is his place of business. As such, it is different from his residence, where people enter by invitation only. He operates a retail business, which by definition is open to the public. I do not pretend to have read the laws of all states. The laws of many states allow an owner of a business to carry a firearm at his "place of business" -- note, NOT "place of employment." I respectfully suggest that the OP really needs to ask a lawyer in his state.