Sierra Gameking 65 grain spitzer boat tail .224 any expirience ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

curious if anyone has any expirience with this bullet ??? it looks like a "match inspired" hunting type bullet...

I've got a couple 100 coming to try in my fast twist 22 Hornets ( I know no one else is loading for that ) but curious what anyone thought that might have used them in the 223 how they shot for you ( what twist barrel you used them in ??? ) how fast you were driving them, what you used them on etc...

[Unclenick]

No experience, but playing with it in QuickLOAD, assuming you have a .224" bore, assuming the default case water capacity (14.5 grains), and assuming 1.72 COL, suggests a starting load of around 7.7 grains of Lil" Gun working up toward 8.5 grains will give you the most velocity. Other powders all came up with slower limits. From a 24" tube this runs 2000-2200 fps. From the JBM ballistics site data, that bullet is 0.865" long and will do best with a 9-9.5" twist over that velocity range. Being a boattail, it will need some time to go to sleep, so you may find 200 yard groups at lower moa than 100 yard groups. At shorter ranges flat base bullets are easier to get tight groups with.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

thanks fo the info... I have a 1 in 9 twist on both my rifle & revolver for that cartridge...

I was able to get some 68 grain match bullets to stabilize even in the 6" barreled revolver... I didn't have my rifle done when I did the 1st tests with the revolver, but "assume" they'll shoot at least as good or better out of the 22" rifle than out of the 6" revolver... I'm thinking these should do about the same, as the Hornady 68 grain match bullets I tried earlier, but be more of a hunting construction...

I wouldn't use them for deer sized game ( I have much better options for that use ), but maybe as a good bullet for yotes or maybe even home defense???

I'm wondering how they'll mushroom at the lower velocities I'll get out of the Hornet case, hence my hoping I could find someone who has hunted with them out of the 223, to see if the bullets mushroomed well at those velocities ???

[Unclenick]

I haven't hunted with those, but you can call Sierra's 800 number and ask what the minimum impact velocity is for mushrooming that bullet? Their ballistic techs will tell you. Then you just need to know your actual MV and use a ballistic table to see how far out your bullet will drop to that velocity? The Lil' Gun is fast enough that it is all burned up about 19" down the bore, and the expansion ratio with that narrow case is high so that muzzle pressure in the rifle is low, meaning there isn't much bullet acceleration near the end of the tube, so you only lose about 25 fps with your barrel being 22" instead of 24".

[Magnum Wheel Man]

BTW... I did some loads with Lil Gun & the 68 grain bullets & they shot well... I'm a bit concerned about the Lil Gun & the heavier bullets though... I was also expirimenting with AA # 9, & 3-4 more conventional to the cartridge powders, but I'm hoping for a light ( like Barnes 36 grain Varmint Grenades ) & a medium ( 45-55 grain bullet ) along with something like these 65's that will each shoot reasonably well in both guns... so that is the reason I'm looking at faster powders than tradition for the Hornet ( I also have a 10" Contender & the load book for Contenders ), & started there for powder selections.. of course no one is shooting heavy bullets in the Honet, because of the traditional twist rate...

BTW #2... I'm cheating the OAL out a bit, with a max that will cycle through the rotary magazine as a max OAL... I originally stretched them to the max of the cylinder length, & those cartridges have all cycled through my rotary mag... at least so far... haven't loaded any in a while, so I don't have my OAL in my head here at work...

[mehavey]

I ran the 65gr Sierra SP in my 1-9 HBAR before rebarreling. It was one of the few bullets that would shoot well in the defective barrel that Colt had supplied as original equipment

[Unclenick]

The powder and load that produces the fastest velocity in the long barrel will also produce the fastest velocity in a short barrel. It provides greater average acceleration at all lengths until you get the barrel so short that it doesn't allow peak pressure to be reached (around 1-2"), though you'll get more muzzle flash from the shorter tube than some faster powders would give you.

I ran a powder table in QuickLOAD and it puts Lil' Gun at the top for velocity with that bullet, followed by H110/296, followed by VV N110, followed by H4227 (now discontinued), followed by Norma 123, followed by Ramshot Enforcer, followed by 2400, in order of descending muzzle velocity (and leaving out foreign powders not commonly available here, like Rottweil, Nitrochemie, and Lovex).

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Thanks for that info... I'll use it, since I don't have a program like that, & load more by the book, & by "feel" off of my reference material

[Magnum Wheel Man]

bad night of poker for me last night ( I play bar league once a week ) means extra time on the loading bench... I preped 150 cases & primed them last night... my next group of bullets should be here today... I think I'll load for the 65 grain bullets 1st, trying 3 different powders, 5 different powder charges, 10 cartridges with each load, looking for something that will group 5 shots diecent at 200 yards in the rifle & 50 - 75 yards in the revolver... I did alot of chronographing my 1st tests with the revolver ( before the rifle was done )... I'll probably shoot for groups 1st this time, then reload 10 of my best 2 or 3 loads for each bullet, then chrony those later, trying to duplicate the best groups, while shootng through the chrony...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Got my bullets in yesterday... & loaded up my 1st box of 50 ( 5 different loads, 10 each, of Lil Gun in 0.5 grain increments )...

BTW... I rechecked my maximum OAL & knocked it back a couple .001'' to an even 1.8"

I haven't loaded any Hornet for at least 6 months, & I had to set up the dies for this bullet ( forgot how fragile the cases are ) & slightly crushed the 1st 2 cartridges setting everything up... I hate that they'll still push ard into the revolvers chambers, so I'll be able to fire form them back, which is good, since they were new RP cases...

had one slightly deformed bullet the pointed lead tip had some excess lead globbed on to it... I was able to take a razor knife & make it look normal...

I'm set up to load 1680 next, & will try 4227 after that... hope to try them out this weekend in both guns... looking for group size 1st...

[Unclenick]

If you get a chance to shoot a little further out where the wind starts to take a toll (like 300 yards), and shoot in a variable wind, the wind deflection is both horizontal and a little bit vertical. The angle of a least squares fit line through a large group (10 or so) fired in those conditions (without adjusting the sights or point of aim, but letting the wind blow the bullet) can be used to deduce the actual gyroscopic stability factor of the bullet. It would be interesting to do that to see how far the Miller estimate is off?

[Magnum Wheel Man]

BTW... I'd been a bit hotter than what you posted before, for Lil Gun with the 68 grain bullets in the revolver, so when I saw just how much extra powder I was using last time, I started ) 0.5 grains less for my 5 loads ( might not have been enough )... I wasn't seeing "much" pressure signs on my brass in the revolver before, but had used pistol primers the 1st time around, & they flattened quite a bit... I loaded .1" long last time as well, & that likely reduces pressure a little, as does shooting them out of the revolver, where there is plenty of room for the bullet to jump, & the barrel cylinder gap ... I'm hoping my starting load this time ( which is already pretty warm ) shoots the best... but I might end up pulling bullets on the hotter loads for the rifle, if the bullet nearly touches the lands, the pressures could be much higher in the rifle than they were before in the revolver... wishing I had started lower on the charges for the rifle... the 1st 5 with the lowest charge will tell me alot... ( I'll be looking over the brass quite well before moving up to the next charge level ) I think for the rifle to be safe, I might drop all my previous revolver loads by aprox 10% for the other powders & bullets I'm trying...

I should really get a program if I'm going to keep loading combinations "you don't find in a book"

where does one get a good program, & how much are they ???

[Unclenick]

For internal ballistics there are only two I am aware of. QuickLOAD and Load From a Disk. The latter is much less versatile. From it's own FAQ, it has the following limitations:

Q. Can Load From a Disk users enter their own powder type and load data?

A. No. The math model uses an 86% to 90% load density with pressures of 40,000 CUP to 50,000 CUP to produce optimum loads for a given cartridge. Not all powders fit this criteria for a given cartridge. The program will generate load data for 5 to 10 different powders.

Load from a Disk is taken from the the old Powley equations behind the Powley slide rule computer designed originally for IMR rifle powders and works only with the smaller selection of powders in the program. Unlike the Powley equations, QuickLOAD has an actual mathematical combustion model it solves using 8 powder parameters. It isn't perfect, but it is at least in the ballpark in most cases and is flexible enough to be refined by measuring your bore, the capacity of your fired cases as they come out of your particular chamber, and the velocities you actually get. Using actual chronograph readings lets you tweak its powder database to match particular powder lots.

The two are priced differently, but I think it's a case of you getting what you pay for. QuickLOAD is $150 and Load from a Disk is about $65. QuickLOAD additionally comes with not one, but two exterior ballistics programs, QuickTARGET and QuickTARGET Unlimited so you can see how your predicted loads will fly? The second program is a more flexible and complicated sort, but includes the actual measured drag functions for a lot of popular individual bullets instead of leaving you stuck with just the ballistic coefficient method. It also has drag functions for all the other RBL B.C. models, and not just the G1 model commonly published. So, if you know something about what you are doing, it gives you better precision than most.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

thanks for the info... even if I'm looking at the more expensive program, that is reasonable for info available for loading "out of the box" loads

[Unclenick]

If you get it, it's a good idea, until you get used to it, to plug in starting loads from manuals to see what numbers you get? Then switch to the component that isn't in the manual and tweak the powder charge in the program until you get the same result you did for the manual starting load. That becomes your new starting point. Get actual velocity readings from that starting charge and tweak the QL numbers to get a match. Chris Long has a paper on how to tweak to a match, here.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Very interesting... maybe I'll have to buy that program for myself for Christmas... I can easily see how valuable it could be to me, since I load or so many cartridges ( nearly 50 or so ) & have several guns with custom set ups... ( like these 2 fast twist Hornets )