Knife brought to gun fight at Wal-Mart

[Chaz88]

Peruse any knife forum and find their 'sharpening' area. To knife knuts sharpening is akin to our reloading. Lots of hobbyists are doing it, many of them are utilizing Japanese waterstones, the kind used in polishing Japanese kitchen knives.

I normally wont even let someone handle a knife that I have put a fine polished edge on. Just the normal thumb edge check people insist on doing is enough to shave a nice fillet off your thumb.

[KenpoTex]

Originally Posted by Deaf Smith

Well in both the attacks either the defenders didn't seem to have guns or they sure were not agressive in pulling them and shooting.

If you're referring to the clip I posted, did you not hear the gunshots? In the first segment, I counted at least 5 and, though it's blurry, you can see the gun in his hand. In the second segment I mentioned (the guy attacking multiple officers) I counted at least 4 shots.

We can "monday morning quarterback" these segments to death..."Oh, they did/didn't do this and I would always/never do this."
As others have mentioned, the point...the problem...is that all too many "gun guys" assume that they will be able to successfully draw and make decisive hits (hits that stop the guy from gutting you) before a commited knife-weilding attacker can close the gap.

Now if the guy is 10 feet away and is just brandishing the knife and making threats, sure...you might have time to draw. However, if the guy is already charging you before you start to draw, the chance of you stopping him before he inflicts serious damage is, IMO, pretty slim.

[The Tourist]

Another analogy popped up this week. A teacher successfully saved many lives fighting a gunman, we all laud him for doing the right thing. And yet, when a Wisconsin principal did the same thing, he was shot and killed. I believe the same circumstances apply to our 'gun vs. knife' debate.

But at the end of the day, after seeing how long this thread has become, I'm not sure we have taught a single thing.

Sadly, sometime in the future, a TFL member who has read this thread, will square off against a blade wielding aggressor, and smirk thinking "It's only a knife."

Like all aspects of conventional wisdom, there is an element of truth in all lore and stereotypes, and I believe it applies here. You can lead a horse to water. The same "knife to a gunfight" joke will continue to be told, and the 21-Foot-Rule will still claim victims in horrific slashing deaths.

Hey, guys, don't you know, a bullet always trumps a knife. You hear it all of the time, even in gun forums.

[Cremon]

Originally Posted by Chaz88

Just the normal thumb edge check people insist on doing is enough to shave a nice fillet off your thumb.

I am a cooking enthusiast and I keep my chefs knives extremely sharp because I hate cutting meats and vegetables and having to "saw" with a knife. Having a razor honed edge makes food preparation a breeze but at the same time, I would NEVER thumb one of my chefs knives to test the sharpness. I use a butcher's steel to sharpen mine and I guarantee you it doesn't make it anywhere near as sharp as your Japanese wet stone does - and yet I have to handle my knives extremely carefully. I can only imagine the kind of edge you have on yours.

[Deaf Smith]

Hey Kenpotex,

I had the sound on mute. My bad.

But did they hit him with any of the shots? I mean 4 and 5 shots fired?

[BlackFeather]

Here's the thing, a knife does not need to be razor sharp to kill. Someone using a knife against someone they know has a gun is obviously going to aim to kill in the only method an untrained person would know. Chest, head, neck. A somewhat sharp knife like most would carry tears and causes more damage as well as it is more likely to shred through clothing. With the now extremely common semi and fully serrated pocket knives this threat is more common. The worst thing I see is that at such a close range, you may not see who is around you and in an attempt to fire at the person you may not know how well of a shot you have. I would say to aim down in a close quarters fight and if possible take a cut to the outer arm to deflect it away and gain distance or to strike with your pistol.

Just my thoughts, haven't been here in a while and am a bit rusty at explaining my thoughts...

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by BlackFeather

Here's the thing, a knife does not need to be razor sharp to kill.

You are quite right. But there is another factor at work here, and I see it quite often. Let me give you an example.

When I was a boy, I knew every car design, every model and year and every nuance of change. If a car company changed the tail-lights and nothing else, I knew it was a 1958 model and not the '57. I cannot do that now.

It's the same with gun guys. Most folks here have quite an impressive understanding of firearms. If that demographic holds for the same folks I have met sharpening at Gander Mountain, it follows that their ongoing knowledge of firearms surpasses their understanding of knives.

A friend out in Wyoming reports the same. In a state where most folks hunt, they know their rifles but not advances in metallurgy and and re-introduction of togishi practices in sharpening.

I went to a "Chili's" restaurant last night with several friends. I know the manager, who always drops by for a short chat. I had a huge burger, and sliced it easily in two with a Graham SS3. And even though the guy is a practiced hunter, he had never seen such a knife, nor knew the brand or had even heard of the alloy.

Modern alloys puncture kevlar vests like soft cheese. My examples of S30V or BG-42 are now easily trumped by uber-steels of S90V and folded Japanese steel.

You are not going to be 'cut,' you're going to be eviscerated. Like a fawn, like a section of sausage. The days of dull knives slipping harmlessly off a leather jacket are over.

[cubesmoothie]

knives can be incredibly dangerous. If someone armed with a gun is in an altercation with a knife wielder, they will be very close together and both weapons will have great potential to take their toll. Civilian carry is not like a war, where you will have squads of men with machineguns and rifles going against others from at least 25 yards minimum in most cases.

The really scarey part about knives imo, is even if you get three good hits to someone's chest with .45 hollows, all that has to happen is one lethal poke and death will be inevitable. Knives are not inherintly going to lose to bullets, unless the action is happening at quite a distance. If someone attacks with a knife probably the best thing that can be done is to get distance, or destroy their eyes or incapacitate their ability to see you clearly. A taurus judge would be great. Mace would certainly help, even if your primary carry is a pistol. You need to stay away from that blade.

[BlackFeather]

Anything helps, but the problem with a knife wielding opponent is that if they are blinded they can still cause damage with the knife. It isn't that hard to grab someone with your eyes closed and know where they are in correlation to your own body. Blinding an opponent with a gun is more effective. Just a thought.

[TXGunNut]

I spent a few hours of my 30th birthday in an ER with a young man who brought a knife to a gunfight. We were waiting for the ME to come and haul him away. I've had twenty birthdays since then and I still don't think the joke's funny.

[Joe-R]

Shoot the dirtbag then make your snappy statement!
Better yet don't say anything that the gestopo and the propoganda lawyers will use aganst you.




Spelling only counts in school

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Joe-R

Shoot the dirtbag then make your snappy statement!

The overwhelming majority of my clients are your average Joe Lunchbox type hunters, chefs and collectors, I even sharpen for one one of our pastors. Folks you would define as "good guys."

However, over the past few years I have noticed that grown men who should know better seem to delight in brandishing firearms as props. I first saw R. Kelly do it in a video, and then as a demented piece of gansta jewelry in the movie "What's Love Got To Do With It?" I thought things like this were just more Hollywood rubbish.

Then recently several athletes played with loaded guns in a locker-room, and I began to wonder if this unsettling trend was the beginning of a younger statement I was too old to fully understand. It wouldn't be the first time I got something wrong.

But if I misunderstood the meaning of the action, which we might assign the name of "playful brandishing," then so too would my clients. The problem is how do you discern the idiot from the true aggressor? I've decided that you cannot--and I make this clear to my clients.

For safety sake, I view anyone with a smirk and a handgun as a credible threat to my life. Upon seeing the butt end of a firearm being pulled and hearing that "snappy statement," I have no moral problem with carving up that man like a Christmas goose.

It would be a tragedy indeed if that man's dying gasp told us all that he was just repeating a joke he heard in a forum...

I don't think a joke and a handgun are all that funny. I take it very seriously. Go to that Snopes article and view that picture one more time.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp

[KenpoTex]

Some more examples of what an edged weapon can do:

Warning: Very Graphic, not for those with weak stomachs or if your kids are around.
http://www.mdtstraining.com/Contact-...aponWounds.pdf

Another: sometimes all it takes is one...
http://www.mdtstraining.com/AAR.pdf

[Joe-R]

Anyone who pull's a knife is not a nice guy, joe lunchpail or not. Cancil his or ticket before they kill you.






Spelling only counts in school

[The Tourist]

KenpoTex, at the end of the day do you think we're making headway with the guys who are the real problem? I believe (unless I'm fooling myself) that the average TFL member also views this circumstance as a serious outcome to foolish behavior.

I also think that idiots are going to perpetuate this joking around for many more ER visits to come.

I used my SS3 for dinner this week, and having some spare time, I took the knife home and re-polished the edge and did some thinking. I do not have a video camera--or the skill--but I almost wished I could create a YouTube vignette of me, an average guy, slicing up a few pounds of a flank steak, akin to those Cold Steel demonstrations.

I'm certain that some kid would chastise me with, "Hey, Tourist, are you going to attack me for a little joke?"

Well, all of those militant sensei out there have been barking away here telling that adhering to a life of constant, armed and determined vigilance is the only way for a real man to live. Of course, I doubt that they mean I should live out that conduct with them as a focal point.

But then, when does a "gun and joke" come from a TFL member, and when does it come from real attacker? How I am supposed to tell the difference in those nano-seconds of "vigilance"?

Oh, and BTW, these new steel alloys ain't yo' daddy's jackknife...

[BlackFeather]

Hmm... As an opinion and from a bit of experience, having a knife against another knife just ties up a hand that could be more useful. A gun against a knife in close quarters is as I said dangerous to others. Also the blade shape used is a big deal.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by BlackFeather

Also the blade shape used is a big deal.

Good point of view. I like nice things and my EDCs are Striders, Grahams and Emersons. Superior edges, strong construction, great for slicing and deep penetration against even things like kevlar. Yikes, even a blind man can find a femoral artery with tools like that.

Humor aside, this has gotten to be a very serious debate on safety and keeping a civil tongue in your head. But you can't stop an idiot from buying a gun, and once purchased, it appears that many times you cannot teach him manners.

My guess is these guys will be a perennial problem.

[couldbeanyone]

Tourist, all your talk of uber steels and Japanese water stones isn't helping your case. Bad guys don't carry customs. How about 1095 and a whetrock will kill you graveyard dead. That is the simple truth. Your dads jack knife will kill you too.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by couldbeanyone

Bad guys don't carry customs.

Bad guys, good guys and and smart-mouth chefs carry anything and everything. The initials "www" stand for 'world wide web' and anyone with a lap-top has easy access to superior cutlery that can be delivered right to his door with a debit card.

Is a Hattori kitchen knife worth +2,200 dollars? I think it is, and numerous chefs think it is. Is a +500,000 dollar Italian sports car worth the money? Lots of status seeking wannabee gang bangers think it is.

I see 139 dollar Emersons are available for immediate delivery. I waited ten years for mine. What you and I *knew* to be true last year has changed with our economy.

Every newstand in Madison carries the knife rag TK. While I think it's the cutlery equivalent of "Soldiers of Fiction" the fact remains that any thug who still moves his lips when he reads can find out the latest 'shiv' that penetrates a kevlar vest.

More to the point, when the bad guy reaches into his pocket for an edged tool to slice off some very important pieces of your body, do you really want to gamble?

[45ACPShooter]

As deadly as knives are and as grievous as their wounds they may inflict are a lot of you guys seems to drawing on extreme examples as to why knives are just as deadly or deadlier than firearms. Yes, some people have been known to continue attacking after multiple gunshot wounds but that's not the norm. Look at many examples there are of multiple people being killed or injured by someone using a firearm vs someone using a knife. I think that's one big difference in terms of lethality you're not going to see too many incidents where multiple people were attacked with a knife like with a firearm.

Now that being said you should be ready for the possibility because it can happen as unlikely as it is. I am not saying you shouldn't be just as careful with a knife armed opponent but it's foolish to try to say that it's just as deadly or deadlier as a firearm.

[The Tourist]

...if you see it coming...

Several years ago Massad Ayoob did a magazine article on this same topic. He demonstrated how edged weapons can be brought into play well inside your sphere of safety.

He even demonstrated how some Escrima moves--which he defined as "slashing out of a wound"--would appear to be made by a 12 gauge.

After studying knives, sharpening them, reading books on Japanese history and their cutting implements, researching the modern application of waterstones, and discussing alloys with my BIL who's a metallurgist, I have come to the conclusion that knives are deadlier than guns, period.

Many ER x-rays show old bullets when they scan new wounds. Compare that with the often irreparable damage a knife does to tendons and arteries.

Within contact distances I'd rather have a good knife and motorcycle boots. Not only do I stand a better chance of surviving and winning, but this savage exchange would be over much sooner, and much more damaging to my opponent.

Look, I'm far too pretty to die. I'm going to pick the best weapon to stay alive and defeat my aggressor. I pick steel.

[BlackFeather]

Look, I'm far too pretty to die. I'm going to pick the best weapon to stay alive and defeat my aggressor. I pick steel.

Epic quote... I may just save that one if ya don't mind...

[45ACPShooter]

Ok, then you prove my point because a gun is going to be just as deadly even if you see it coming.

[BlackFeather]

Here is the simple answer, both, when used as weapons, are just as deadly in their own rights. This is why they are used as both defensive and offensive weapons. Situations that make them deadly or more effective over another are going to be different. I can throw my knife and hit someone in the chest at 15 feet or so. Doesn't say whether it would kill a man. You could shoot a man at the same range and he may still live. You could cut a man or stab him a few times and he may still live. You could also be cut and killed because you tried to do the old movie stunt where you pull the trigger up against his stomach and he keels over. They still have a chance to kill you.

The problem I think is people don't have enough training or know enough to defuse a situation with a knife while you have a gun and they have already made it to you before you could draw a bead.

One weapon is no less deadly than another in its own circumstances or use. That is the reason it is a weapon.

Blade shape, design, sharpness, and even composition matters as much as your bullets' caliber, design, energy, hydrostatic shock, and ability to mushroom...

That's the way I see things...

[LafeHubert]

The most important part of the "bring a knife/gun to the fight" question is; can you find a way to not need to use either? A keen sense of "situational awareness" combined with being instantly willing to abandon the issue or flat run away rather than fight is better than having and being an expert with a whole selection of weapons. Not everyone will agree with me, but I'll seriously retreat rather than fight, and fight only when I have no choice. I'm a crippled old man so I can't run far or fast, so having to make a stand is becoming more of an issue. I have only had to defend myself two times in a long life and both of those occasions are train wreck memories that I don't like to recall. I will remind those who seem to forget that if you use a knife or gun to defend yourself, no matter how well justified, produces threat of not only criminal risk, but civil liability that is almost mind numbing.

Good Luck.