|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
January 21, 2014, 12:42 AM | #1 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
New lethal force event; EDWs....
In Westmoreland County(PA), a PA state trooper deployed lethal force against a violent subject who slashed a female victim in a heated domestic dispute.
The LE officers(from a few different agencies) who answered the call used a few Tasers(EDWs) but the prongs did not work properly. The male was wearing a thick leather jacket which prevented the Tasers from working in the critical incident. The subject reportedly lunged at the uniformed officers & was shot several times. The details are on the WTAE-TV news report. As noted in the recent TFL post(s), not all EDWs can or will work against violent subjects. These police officers & state troopers followed policy & sadly, they still had to fire on the armed subject. Clyde |
January 21, 2014, 06:38 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 959
|
I'm always amazed when folks start talking about how Tasers (and earlier, pepper sprays) will 'always' work. (And I've been Tased once, sprayed many times.)
Hell, even a .45 doesn't 'always' work.... Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos |
January 21, 2014, 11:43 AM | #3 |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Just another illustration of why standard police procedure is to use less lethal munitions/devices in a critical incident only when lethal force back-up is immediately available.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
January 21, 2014, 01:31 PM | #4 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Details....
By the WTAE news account, www.wtae.com , the violent subject was hit with approx 11/eleven Taser probes.
Only 2 probes went through the garments & made contact with his body. It wasn't stated which Taser format the LE officers & troopers used. My city(PD with approx 900 sworn personnel) went with the X26 Taser. I like Taser's newer X2 version. The X3 model seemed to big & bulky. Taser cut the X3 I think. A few smaller PDs & sheriffs quit using the Taser systems entirely. Clyde |
January 21, 2014, 06:00 PM | #5 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 19, 2004
Location: michigan
Posts: 578
|
hmmmmm even the ol 38 special lrn load went through jackets...
|
January 21, 2014, 06:59 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Rocky Mountain West
Posts: 3,395
|
While a very tragic event, this is a very well-timed post in light of the recent posts arguing an officer should have used a Taser rather than a firearm. Real life isn't clean, and officers shouldn't have to bet their lives on a one-shot maybe.
My brother is a police officer, and last month they had three consecutive Taser failures because of a tough jacket. The only thing that stopped the guy getting hurt was that there were enough officers that showed up as backup to overcome him, and that he wasn't armed with anything.
__________________
16 Pistols, 5 Rifles, 1 Shotgun, no time to shoot them |
January 22, 2014, 06:58 AM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
LockedBreech wrote;
Quote:
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|
January 22, 2014, 07:41 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Posts: 1,512
|
Knife wielding subject advancing on police vs. knife wielding subject advancing on police. Worlds apart.
|
January 22, 2014, 10:58 PM | #9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Rocky Mountain West
Posts: 3,395
|
Quote:
__________________
16 Pistols, 5 Rifles, 1 Shotgun, no time to shoot them |
|
January 22, 2014, 11:35 PM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Really ?
To borrow a quote from Double Naught Spy; Quote:
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|
January 23, 2014, 12:15 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Rocky Mountain West
Posts: 3,395
|
Any counterpoints to offer, or just a quote?
__________________
16 Pistols, 5 Rifles, 1 Shotgun, no time to shoot them |
January 23, 2014, 12:42 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
We (the US Border Patrol) tested Tasers through Kevlar body armor and they worked, I have a hard time believing that a leather jacket would stop them from working. Who knows.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
January 23, 2014, 01:00 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Rocky Mountain West
Posts: 3,395
|
For what it's worth, the jacket that stopped the tasers in my brother's department (the standard yellow X26 taser) was a heavy brown Carhartt winter coat. I guess they pierced the tough outer shell, but it was puffy enough inside that the barbs weren't long enough to go into his flesh. So, a lot like smaller handgun rounds, it wasn't an issue of piercing the barrier, but of obtaining enough penetration afterward.
__________________
16 Pistols, 5 Rifles, 1 Shotgun, no time to shoot them |
January 23, 2014, 01:13 AM | #14 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Details....
WTAE.com has the entire media report.
11 probes is a lot. 2 making contact with the subject isn't good. A thick leather or material could deflect a EDW. One Taser fail incident I bring up on forums often is the police officer in Daytona Beach Fl who shot a subject in the upper chest. The probes struck a cheap lighter in the subject's shirt pocket & burst into flames! This event was in the early 2000s. Non lethal weapons like OC spray, EDWs, etc can't be expected to work 100% of the time. |
January 23, 2014, 07:00 AM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 17, 2010
Posts: 579
|
Quote:
Then again, I've seen a guy with no shirt on get hit by a Taser and pull the probes out. Nothing works every time or on everybody.
__________________
Here's my credo: There are no good guns, There are no bad guns. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone, except bad people. Charlton Heston |
|
January 23, 2014, 12:59 PM | #16 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Tasers/EDWs....
I'm not Taser or EDW certified, www.Taser.com , but Id read & heard from a few sources that the standard doctrine by most cadre is to fire the Taser & then get ready to fire again/use the electric tips to control the subject(s) immediately.
I wouldn't think any aggressive or intoxicated subject would become compliant or docile immediately after being hit with a non-lethal weapon. Many savvy ex-cons know too that they can thrash around, claim "self defense" or "excessive force" then file a bogus civil action. FWIW, another patrol deputy had a lethal force incident in my area. The subject was unstable & reportedly cut himself and a family member before being shot by LE. This was in a middle class neighborhood of a rural area. |
January 24, 2014, 06:46 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
The probes do NOT need to pierce the skin (it works better but...). The location of the probes is more critical. Yes Clyde a drive stun is always an option and can be used in leu of a bad hit by a probe. I am taser certified.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
|