Close Combat

[Mal H]

PPK corrected to MPK.

(But, I was chuckling to myself picturing a German SWAT team performing a house cleaning all armed with PPK's! )

[OneShotOnly!]

I would hesitate with MP5 if it was pitched against more powerful .223 M4.

[BillCA]

Say what? The US military has had quite a few combat shotguns over the years.

Last I looked - and vets, correct me if I'm wrong - the use of shotguns on the battlefield was considered a violation of the Hauge convention on warfare. I know that some guys carried them early in Vietnam, at least until Johnson increased the deployments. And I know shotguns were frequently carried by some MP's and SP's at checkpoints and airfields, but their role was limited.

[oldbillthundercheif]

We are using shotguns in Iraq. Mostly for "breaching" doors I think, but there are some being used for more traditional jobs as well.

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[BillCA]

My point is that shotguns are not typically used as an anti-personnel arm in the battlefield like the M4/M16.

[SteelCore]

I read in some online military magazine that while shotguns are sometimes used for house-clearing in Iraq, they aren't favored for that purpose because of the potential for collateral damage. Apparently they worry about the spread of the shot and stray pellets. While the spread shouldn't be that much over typical room-clearing distances, I can understand the concern.

Shotguns were used to great effect in other conflicts, like the jungles of Vietnam and the trench warfare of WWI.

Originally Posted by BillCA

Last I looked - and vets, correct me if I'm wrong - the use of shotguns on the battlefield was considered a violation of the Hauge convention on warfare.

I'm not a vet, but I have some info on that. Basically, what happened was the Germans filed a diplomatic protest during WWI against the use of the shotgun, saying that it was inhumane because of the devastation it causes at close range. The protest didn't work, however, and the shotgun has never been found to be against the laws of warfare.

The references listed at the end of this Wikipedia article have some good info on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun

An interesting statistic cited in that article:

The delivery of the large number of projectiles simultaneously makes the shotgun the most effective short range weapon commonly used, with a hit probability 45% greater than a submachine gun, and twice as great as an assault rifle[1]. While each pellet is only as effective as a small caliber handgun, and offers very poor penetration against an armored target, the multiple projectiles increases the likelihood of one or more peripheral wounds.

[BillCA]

Steelcore - thanks for that update.

I can't recall which book it was in, though it was probably about the works of Julian Hatcher or one of Fackler's writings that quoted the surgeon general of the U.S. Army as saying the shotgun is a devastating weapon and close range wounds resemble damage done by artillery more than those of small arms.

The High-Standard Model 10 shotgun was a terrific gun - if you could get it working reliably. I wonder why no one has thought of making a parts kit for 870's or Mossbergs to turn reliable semi-autos into "bullpup" designs? Recoil was mild and the ease of handling was superb.

I once ran through a house-clearing drill with an M1 Carbine and developed a fondness for its quick handling and close range capabilities. But a short, fast handling shotgun would still be my first choice.

[Jason_G]

I once ran through a house-clearing drill with an M1 Carbine and developed a fondness for its quick handling and close range capabilities. But a short, fast handling shotgun would still be my first choice.

I've never held or fired one, and I don't know how reliable they are, but I'd think that one of those Saiga 12 gauges would probably fit the bill for house clearing as far as size goes.

Jason

[OneShotOnly!]

It is very amusing how the pictures go with the signatured quote since it is his town who quote is in the signature which is being bombed and shattered everyday.

[Jim Watson]

From an article on the military use of Winchester 1897 in the old Handgunner Ltd:

"Trench raiding was what th gun was intended for, hence the name. But it could also be quite devastating against the massed infantry attacks characteristic of the Great War. Paul Jenkins recalled one incident in which the '97s were used to give concentrated fire across a section of front after the rifles and machine guns had done their best:

When those shotguns got going -- with nine .34 calibre buckshot per load, six loads in a gun, 200-odd men firing, plenty more shells at hand -- the front ranks of the assault wave simply piled up on top of one another in one awful heap of buckshot-drilled men."

If one man with a pumpgun is a dangerous adversary, what of two infantry companies with shotguns in a day of bolt action rifles?

The article discusses the German diplomatic protest against trench guns, but a picture caption under a buckshot shell and US marked shotgun says it well enough: "Krauts hated buckshot, which blew the points off their funny little hats."

[uzimon]

who says shotguns aint short?
a rem 870 with 12 inch bbl and pistol grip comes in under 23.5 inches

[p99guy]

The thing about shotguns not being included because they arent compact enough? lol


South African "Striker" 12 shot 12GA
American made one was called "Streetsweeper 12"

http://www.pennarms.com/models/resul...tml?ID=Striker

open the link and scroll down for the different models of the striker.

[paknheat]

I have grown real fond of my SKS with the long, sharp, pointy thing on the end of it.