Hardcast for military?

imp · October 10, 2010, 07:50 PM

Couple of other threads got me to thinking about this. Since, by treaty, our military is prohibited from using hollowpoint ammo, seems like a non-jacketed, flat point bullet would be the next best thing in handguns. Should even be cheaper to mass produce. Any reasons why not?

publius · October 10, 2010, 08:24 PM

Reliability could be an issue.

jrothWA · October 10, 2010, 08:28 PM

and used it for there ammo in 9mm.

NATO would not allow due to "Feeding issues" with FA weapons.

the early 9mm replacement test used that ammo until CONGRESS farted.

357 Python · October 10, 2010, 08:47 PM

I believe Remington puts out a non-toxic lead free round that is flat nosed FMJ. I have used it on the range at out academy and it fucntioned in my Beretta just fine.

troy_mclure · October 11, 2010, 01:06 AM

the biggest reason it wouldnt work is the "lead scare", the army is even going to non lead small arms rounds.

chris in va · October 11, 2010, 01:08 AM

I'm assuming by 'hardcast' you mean lead.

They tend to lead the barrel vs. a FMJ.

Reliability in a semiauto.

Logistics of using lead just for the M9, then FMJ in other platforms.

Extra smoke from a lubed bullet.

Lower FPS required to prevent smearing.

8shot357 · October 12, 2010, 01:05 AM

Quote:

I'm assuming by 'hardcast' you mean lead.

They tend to lead the barrel vs. a FMJ.

Maybe semi jacket hard cast would solve that. Still not sure how it would apply to military use as better.

Dave85 · October 12, 2010, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Maybe semi jacket hard cast would solve that. Still not sure how it would apply to military use as better.

That would be a soft-point bullet, which is a no-no.

Ideal Tool · October 12, 2010, 01:39 AM

Hello, 8shot357. The Geneva convention's of 1899 & 1907 outlawed so-called Dum-Dum bullets. Even the British were forced to use jacketed bullets in their old battle proven .455 Webley's. I don't think a cast bullet..unless made of a hard non-expanding alloy such as zink would be kosher. Perhaps a solid bronze like the old french Lebel?

Nasty · October 12, 2010, 04:27 AM

Penetration is improved with FMJ...also, the military is not as interested in stopping as they are in wounding. Kill a man on the field and he lies there until graves registration picks him up. Wound a man and you take him, two litter bearers and a medical crew out of action.

Unlike self defense, wars are won by attrition.

BlueTrain · October 12, 2010, 05:40 AM

You are of course assuming that it is the enemy's litter carriers and medical crew that are going to be kept busy and not your own with the enemy wounded.

Sarge · October 12, 2010, 05:49 AM

Some FMJ flat points, like Remington's UMC 180 grain .40 bullet, have thin jackets/soft cores and can exhibit some expansion as well. To my thinking this is the best of both worlds.

troy_mclure · October 12, 2010, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Penetration is improved with FMJ...also, the military is not as interested in stopping as they are in wounding. Kill a man on the field and he lies there until graves registration picks him up. Wound a man and you take him, two litter bearers and a medical crew out of action.

maybe if we were fighting an enemy that didnt willing blow themselves to bits this theory would work.

i prefer to stop such people well before they can take me with them. myself

THEZACHARIAS · October 12, 2010, 10:13 AM

Quote:

maybe if we were fighting an enemy that didnt willing blow themselves to bits this theory would work.

i prefer to stop such people well before they can take me with them.

Nailed it. The current US military weapons inventory is the remnant of cold war era tactics and strategy. We are largely fighting the war on terror using very conventional equipment (special forces and OSI/CID excluded of course) in the hope that the next war we fight will return to more conventional forms. The weakened economy doesnt help either, because the bottom line is we dont have the money to make serious, far reaching changes to our weapons/ammo stockpiles.

Nasty · October 12, 2010, 04:57 PM

You're right of course regarding today's enemies...my perspective dated me back to the 60's - 70's at least.

James K · October 12, 2010, 05:12 PM

It was the Hague conventions that dealt with soft point and expanding bullets; the Geneva conventions dealt with conduct of war and treatment of war prisoners, that is captured soldiers of the recognized armies of signatory nations. I am not sure how Al Qaeda fits into that picture, not being an army and representing no nation, but our politicians and professional weepers and criers seem always to be agonizing over how we treat the noble, adorable, cute, peace-loving killers our troops encounter in the Middle East.

Jim

DAVID NANCARROW · October 12, 2010, 06:14 PM

Interesting concept, and exactly what would the Hague convention have to say about flat point, non expanding bullets?

EdInk · October 12, 2010, 09:41 PM

IMHO the insurgents we are combating are not a "real" army AND rules of engagement set forth by various treaties do not apply to them.

There are too many reporters and politicians in this war. We need a good old fashioned media blackout were everything is "proof-read" by the military before being reported to anyone. I think after about 6 months, we could have a big turn around in the current situation.

hickstick_10 · October 13, 2010, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Couple of other threads got me to thinking about this. Since, by treaty, our military is prohibited from using hollowpoint ammo, seems like a non-jacketed, flat point bullet would be the next best thing in handguns. Should even be cheaper to mass produce. Any reasons why not?

In a pistol ok, but whats the point?

Lead lubed boolits in a semiauto 5.56 or a 7.62...........no thanks. What about lead in a 50 BMG or 338?

Its an answer in search of a question IMHO.

I dont have an aversion to lead, in fact its all I shoot out of the guns I reload for. But since I doubt there sending men into combat with only a beretta and a knife I think jacketed rounds in a rifle are much better.

Jim March · October 13, 2010, 02:41 AM

Because lead is slicker than copper, you can drive a heavier bullet faster than you can a JHP. In handguns. In modern infantry rifles of any caliber used since WW1, forget it.

Either gas-checking, hard-casting or both WILL solve leading problems. A gas check is a copper base-plate over the back end of the bullet, to act as a "heat shield" preventing the bullet's butt from burning off and plating the barrel during ignition. It's expensive by cast bullet standards, but usually the projectile is still cheaper than FMJs or JHPs.

You can get very expensive hardcast loads from Garrett, Buffalo Bore and the like, but you're not really paying for the bullets, you're paying for the R&D and expensive pressure-test gear needed to do very edgy loads safely.

The only other question is, can you get a "sharp cornered" flat nose ("meplat") to feed OK in a semi-auto? Depends entirely on the gun.

If I was kitting out US soldiers, I'd give them a backup snubbie wheelgun in 9mm with moon clips, with the rounds for same set up as nasty full wadcutters as a last-ditch "plan C" hideout gun. I'd make it 9mm so it can eat the same ammo as the full-size Beretta 9mm in a pinch. The Ruger LCR 357 set up as a 9mm would be a good platform for this critter that wouldn't break the bank bought in quantity.

BlueTrain · October 13, 2010, 06:10 AM

I'd like to go out on a limb here and question whether a flat point bullet, either flat point like on the old .45 Colt, which was lead, or truncated cone or any variation thereof, is noticeable better than a round nose bullet. I've read a lot of claims but I'm not satisfied that it is.

BlueTrain · October 13, 2010, 06:16 AM

And to EdInk, you should be aware that reports accompanied troops in action in WWII. True, there were news blackouts at times and certain things were clearly downplayed but the war wasn't fought in secret. Even today, reporters have to be careful about what they say and when they say it, if it is about actual on-going operations. Basically, if the reporter steps over the line, he's kicked out. I know that for certain because it happened to my wife's first cousin, who was with some unit on their way into Iraq in the second Gulf war. He has written a couple of books about Afganistan and that's where he is now (I think).

Also, all wars are fought for political reasons. That's why all those politicians are around. No, the war won't be over until either all the Afgans are out of Afganistan or we are.

NightSleeper · October 13, 2010, 08:10 AM

Quote:

There are too many reporters and politicians in this war. We need a good old fashioned media blackout were everything is "proof-read" by the military before being reported to anyone. I think after about 6 months, we could have a big turn around in the current situation.

+1

freqlord · October 15, 2010, 11:26 AM

We don't need better bullets...

We just need a guy to push the red button and give Russia the world's largest glass Super Walmart parking lot!

Nasty · October 15, 2010, 02:31 PM

Russia?

Okay...must be a bit of time warp here.

October 10, 2010, 07:50 PM	#1
imp Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 626	Hardcast for military? Couple of other threads got me to thinking about this. Since, by treaty, our military is prohibited from using hollowpoint ammo, seems like a non-jacketed, flat point bullet would be the next best thing in handguns. Should even be cheaper to mass produce. Any reasons why not?

October 10, 2010, 08:24 PM	#2
publius Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Mississippi/Texas Posts: 2,505	Reliability could be an issue. __________________ "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain

October 10, 2010, 08:28 PM	#3
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	In the 80's, Israel develop the "flat point" FMJ and used it for there ammo in 9mm. NATO would not allow due to "Feeding issues" with FA weapons. the early 9mm replacement test used that ammo until CONGRESS farted.

October 11, 2010, 01:06 AM	#5
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	the biggest reason it wouldnt work is the "lead scare", the army is even going to non lead small arms rounds. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

October 12, 2010, 01:39 AM	#9
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Non-jacket military Hello, 8shot357. The Geneva convention's of 1899 & 1907 outlawed so-called Dum-Dum bullets. Even the British were forced to use jacketed bullets in their old battle proven .455 Webley's. I don't think a cast bullet..unless made of a hard non-expanding alloy such as zink would be kosher. Perhaps a solid bronze like the old french Lebel?

October 10, 2010, 08:47 PM	#4
357 Python Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 941	I believe Remington puts out a non-toxic lead free round that is flat nosed FMJ. I have used it on the range at out academy and it fucntioned in my Beretta just fine.

October 11, 2010, 01:08 AM	#6
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I'm assuming by 'hardcast' you mean lead. They tend to lead the barrel vs. a FMJ. Reliability in a semiauto. Logistics of using lead just for the M9, then FMJ in other platforms. Extra smoke from a lubed bullet. Lower FPS required to prevent smearing.

October 12, 2010, 04:27 AM	#10
Nasty Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Posts: 323	Penetration is improved with FMJ...also, the military is not as interested in stopping as they are in wounding. Kill a man on the field and he lies there until graves registration picks him up. Wound a man and you take him, two litter bearers and a medical crew out of action. Unlike self defense, wars are won by attrition. __________________ Above is based on the opinion of a 20 year Small Arms Marksmanship and Training Unit USAF instructor with more than 30 years in competitive shooting sports. Your mileage may vary.

October 12, 2010, 05:40 AM	#11
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	You are of course assuming that it is the enemy's litter carriers and medical crew that are going to be kept busy and not your own with the enemy wounded. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

October 12, 2010, 05:49 AM	#12
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Some FMJ flat points, like Remington's UMC 180 grain .40 bullet, have thin jackets/soft cores and can exhibit some expansion as well. To my thinking this is the best of both worlds. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

October 12, 2010, 04:57 PM	#15
Nasty Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Posts: 323	You're right of course regarding today's enemies...my perspective dated me back to the 60's - 70's at least. __________________ Above is based on the opinion of a 20 year Small Arms Marksmanship and Training Unit USAF instructor with more than 30 years in competitive shooting sports. Your mileage may vary.

October 12, 2010, 05:12 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It was the Hague conventions that dealt with soft point and expanding bullets; the Geneva conventions dealt with conduct of war and treatment of war prisoners, that is captured soldiers of the recognized armies of signatory nations. I am not sure how Al Qaeda fits into that picture, not being an army and representing no nation, but our politicians and professional weepers and criers seem always to be agonizing over how we treat the noble, adorable, cute, peace-loving killers our troops encounter in the Middle East. Jim

October 12, 2010, 06:14 PM	#17
DAVID NANCARROW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,761	Interesting concept, and exactly what would the Hague convention have to say about flat point, non expanding bullets?

October 12, 2010, 09:41 PM	#18
EdInk Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Posts: 3,968	IMHO the insurgents we are combating are not a "real" army AND rules of engagement set forth by various treaties do not apply to them. There are too many reporters and politicians in this war. We need a good old fashioned media blackout were everything is "proof-read" by the military before being reported to anyone. I think after about 6 months, we could have a big turn around in the current situation. __________________ Sic Semper Tyrannis

October 13, 2010, 02:41 AM	#20
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Because lead is slicker than copper, you can drive a heavier bullet faster than you can a JHP. In handguns. In modern infantry rifles of any caliber used since WW1, forget it. Either gas-checking, hard-casting or both WILL solve leading problems. A gas check is a copper base-plate over the back end of the bullet, to act as a "heat shield" preventing the bullet's butt from burning off and plating the barrel during ignition. It's expensive by cast bullet standards, but usually the projectile is still cheaper than FMJs or JHPs. You can get very expensive hardcast loads from Garrett, Buffalo Bore and the like, but you're not really paying for the bullets, you're paying for the R&D and expensive pressure-test gear needed to do very edgy loads safely. The only other question is, can you get a "sharp cornered" flat nose ("meplat") to feed OK in a semi-auto? Depends entirely on the gun. If I was kitting out US soldiers, I'd give them a backup snubbie wheelgun in 9mm with moon clips, with the rounds for same set up as nasty full wadcutters as a last-ditch "plan C" hideout gun. I'd make it 9mm so it can eat the same ammo as the full-size Beretta 9mm in a pinch. The Ruger LCR 357 set up as a 9mm would be a good platform for this critter that wouldn't break the bank bought in quantity. __________________ Jim March

October 13, 2010, 06:10 AM	#21
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	I'd like to go out on a limb here and question whether a flat point bullet, either flat point like on the old .45 Colt, which was lead, or truncated cone or any variation thereof, is noticeable better than a round nose bullet. I've read a lot of claims but I'm not satisfied that it is. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

October 13, 2010, 06:16 AM	#22
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	And to EdInk, you should be aware that reports accompanied troops in action in WWII. True, there were news blackouts at times and certain things were clearly downplayed but the war wasn't fought in secret. Even today, reporters have to be careful about what they say and when they say it, if it is about actual on-going operations. Basically, if the reporter steps over the line, he's kicked out. I know that for certain because it happened to my wife's first cousin, who was with some unit on their way into Iraq in the second Gulf war. He has written a couple of books about Afganistan and that's where he is now (I think). Also, all wars are fought for political reasons. That's why all those politicians are around. No, the war won't be over until either all the Afgans are out of Afganistan or we are. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

October 15, 2010, 11:26 AM	#24
freqlord Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Castle Rock, CO Posts: 58	We don't need better bullets... We just need a guy to push the red button and give Russia the world's largest glass Super Walmart parking lot!

October 15, 2010, 02:31 PM	#25
Nasty Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Posts: 323	Russia? Okay...must be a bit of time warp here. __________________ Above is based on the opinion of a 20 year Small Arms Marksmanship and Training Unit USAF instructor with more than 30 years in competitive shooting sports. Your mileage may vary.