Questions about rust blue/brown at home

[dakota.potts]

I had resigned myself to not being able to blue or finish metal at home, living in an apartment with no garage or outside work area. However, I have been reading about rust bluing and browning and it seems like something that may actually be doable with a limited number of tools and resources. It seems that the only thing that's needed is the acid ( with all necessary handling precautions), heat, a steam box, and a way to boil parts.

I can contain most things I would blue either in a pot (such as handguns) or a PVC pipe fixture for barreled actions. I do have a spare bathroom I could use to hold the scalding tank...

So things I'm wondering:
Is it safe to contain everything needed to rust blue or brown in a home?
What are some ways to boil the amount of water needed to cover something like a rifle (including larger assembled actions such as H&K, AK, etc.)? Most recommend boiling distilled water in a pot but somehow I see a safety issue with carrying pots of boiled water (heavy) through my house.
Does the boiling water bath neutralize the acids and make them safe to dispose of regularly, or are there special disposal requirements.

What say you, TFL? Should I consider giving it a try or am I in for too much?

[Bill DeShivs]

If you are going to do handguns, yes. Go to a thrift store and buy some large stainless pots. Buy a hot plate or spare stove burner to heat the water.
I think Brownell's still sells Belgian blue solution.

Doing long guns will not be practical.

[mete]

Acids on guns or waste solutions should always be neutralized with boiling solution of baking soda !! Rinse with hot water and while the gun is still warm apply oil or a grease like RIG !

[4V50 Gary]

Look up my instructions for express bluing. It takes less equipment than hot rust bluing and is easier to do in a home workshop.

[Jim Watson]

Reading the old gunsmithing books, you have to be careful of terminology.
A hot blue was the fast rust process Gary describes as express blue - from the trademark of the most common current brand.
A cold blue was slow rust, even though the parts were boiled to convert the oxide.

Nowadays hot blue is the usual caustic fast blue and cold blue is touchup.

[T. O'Heir]

More about who else lives there than anything else.
"...I see a safety issue with..." If you do not have a female feline/canine supervisor or kids running around, you should be ok. (Male cats usually don't care what you're doing unless you're cooking. Females think you need constant close supervision. Dogs and kids just want to help.) Built a great, big, tent years ago in a one bed room but would not do it with any of those around.
Small parts can be done without much fuss. Have a look at Caswell Plating's web site.
Mind you, if you need 'boiling' anything it won't be as soon as you remove the heat source. How far it'd have to be moved would matter. There are some odour related issues than might crop up too.
"...are there special disposal requirements..." No dumping anything toxic(oils, greases, etc.) down any drain.

[Nodak1858]

I rust blued a 1903 no problem at home, with minimal investment. I bought the Pilkington rust blue solution, picked up a chunk pf 3" or 4" PVC pipe and capped one end. I applied the solution and hung it in the bathroom for the shower curtain rod and let the rust develope. I put the barreled receiver in the PVC and then poured in the boiling distilled water. It turned the rust black no problem. I've hot blued a number of hand guns and rifles, rust bluing is easier on the pocket book and safer, less chemicals to deal with, and no hot salts. I think the results of the rust blue are better as well, but that's just me. I wouldn't hesitate to rust blue in an apartment, I would skip the fuming box set up and just hang it where the humidity is the highest.

[dakota.potts]

Well, I think I'll go ahead and order the supplies. I don't have anything major that needs bluing right now, but I do have some G3 steel magazines that have seen some better days and considering the low cost, I'll go ahead and experiment on one of them. Won't need much but a small pot for that.

[Gunplummer]

I still do it once and a while. I did break down and buy a stainless trough from Brownell's years ago. Never bought the pipe burner set up. I just stick 2-3 Coleman camp stoves (Little round one that screws on the bottle) under the trough which is supported by two cement blocks. A piece of aluminum siding over the top to build heat faster. I remember talking to one guy that used a piece of spouting and laid little stainless blocks under the action and barrel instead of suspending it with wires. I tried the blocks in my trough and it works well. I suggest Brownell's brand rust blue for military stuff. It gets a lot darker. The thing you might want to do outside is soaking the steel wool in gas or a solvent to de-grease it. It is really not that hard to do. I would not drink the acid, but I am sure you have worse chemicals sitting under the kitchen sink.

[4V50 Gary]

At Lassen they told us to salvage pipes out of old water heaters

[Gunplummer]

What pipes? I have torn them apart and there is a "Torpedo" looking bottle. I guess you could split it and maybe even hook up the two elements to boil. Get kind of expensive with the electric bill.

[James K]

You need a tank that you can hook supports onto to hold the gun, and have some arrangement so you can handle the work without touching it or having it touch the tank. I used the same setup as for caustic blue, driving wood dowels into the barrel and receiver and supporting them on hooks. The barreled action can be held by those dowels while swabbing/carding.

I know improvised tanks can be used since the tank needs to hold only boiling water (not as dangerous as hot caustic salts), but you don't want some jury rigged arrangement collapsing and dousing you with boiling water, either.

Jim

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

For pistols, one doesn't need a large 40" tank. I would look at the half and quarter size square tanks that Brownells has made, or make one like them. One with flat and parallel sides is easier to use, because it is easy to make hanging supports to adapt to it, that keep the gun off the bottom of the tank, usually around 1". I have seen some use the smaller tanks on a Coleman stove, or on propane BBQ grills. If you can get two, you're better off, as one can be heated to put Dicro-clean 909 in.

The trick to this type of bluing, is getting the metal to the correct temperature, and keeping it clean of contaminates, while your wiping on the bluing, and carding it. When I did hot water bluing, I used those white cotton Jersey gloves, though clean rubber will do. A fingerprint or oil will ruin your work. I used the white gloves, so that I could tell I had a clean pair to start the job with. I always threw them in the wash, afterwards. BTW, if you are going to card with steel wool, make sure it is oil free.

[4V50 Gary]

Gunplummer - I dunno what type of water heater you have out there, but I'm thinking of those old cylindrical gas water heaters that stood over 5 feet tall.

[Gunplummer]

Yes. Don't know about gas, but electric heaters have steel pots. Have yet to see one in stainless. That is how they sell more. The tank rusts through.

[Unclenick]

Usually water heater tanks are stamped and rolled steel that is glass-lined, same as enameled pots and pans. I toured a working plant making hot water heaters one time. The glass lining is done by putting powdered glass and flux in the tanks, then setting them into a machine that both rotates and rocks several of them at once while inside a furnace that melts the glass dust. The glass is likely specially compounded to have a larger than normal (for glass) temperature coefficient of expansion so it doesn't separate from the steel. But the heating and cooling cycles and pipe attachments have gaps or small cracks after attaching things. That's why there's a sacrificial electrode in water heaters; to scavenge oxygen away from corrosion sites.

AFAIK, the only difference with gas is there is a chimney up the middle. Could that be the pipe 4V50 Gary mentioned?

[Buzzard Bait]

It can be a home job metal prep before the bluing means every thing you can fabricate a water tank from something but I would think the do ability of the project would depend on the tolerance level of your spouse
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[Gunplummer]

I have never seen a glass lined water heater. Heard about it, but always from someone way older than me. I have known a heck of a lot of people that replaced water heaters that leaked. If they were glass lined you could just keep replacing elements that burn out.

[dakota.potts]

Question to revive this thread: I had a gunsmithing instructor tell me they had read that doing a full rust brown treatment and then immediately applying cold blue would result in a hard rust blue type finish. Anybody know if there is any truth to this?

[Gunplummer]

In my opinion, cold blue is good for nothing other than the smallest of touch up jobs. If you are going to the trouble to rust brown, why not just do the blue?

[James K]

" ... electric heaters have steel pots. Have yet to see one in stainless. That is how they sell more. The tank rusts through."

A bit off topic, but it helps to replace the anode rod every few years.

Jim

[dakota.potts]

Just another question I had.

I read some information that indicated that Arsenal refinish CZ-52 pistols were hot blued, sometimes over the existing parkerized finish. There's not much information on it, but there are a few sources talking about hot caustic bluing over a parkerized finish that seem to note that it's possible. There is also some information about cold bluing over parkerizing producing a supposedly fairly uniform black/blue color that is deeper than a standard cold blue. So, it seems that there is some supporting evidence that an oxidation reaction will still happen to blue something that has been parkerized.

With this being the case, can you rust blue or brown over something that has been parkerized?

[Gunplummer]

I doubt it. I did an MAS 36 receiver once, and their parkerizing was tough to get off. Any spot missed was discolored.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

dakota.potts

No, what they did was sand blast them, and then blue them. I had a FEG Browning Hi-power copy that way, that was ex-police duty. I'd say that someone has saw that blasted matte surface, and thought that they blued over parkerizing.

[Gunplummer]

Yeah, that was the rage years ago, to flat your guns instead of parkerizing. It attracts moisture like a sponge.