3-gun production division?????

bullseyekp · August 2, 2002, 01:29 PM

This is kind of an off-shoot of Correia's thread......

Let me preface this by saying that I have never shot a 3-gun match. I'm pretty proficient in IDPA and joined USPSA a couple of weeks ago after shooting a match in July.

Here's the question. Since USPSA (or should I say IPSC?) has gone to the trouble of creating a Production division for standard matches, why don't they create one for 3-gun. Is this due to the infancy of 3-gun in general or what?

Pistol regs would follow the standard USPSA Production rules, shotguns would be limited to pumps without comps or optics and have a max capacity of say 8 rounds, and rifles couldn't wear comps or optics.

What does everyone think?

Correia · August 2, 2002, 01:42 PM

I think what we are seeing is that there isn't any national organization doing much of anything with 3 gun. Local clubs are developing their own rules for 3 gun, whether they be IDPA or IPSC.

The big matches that have developed are all different as well. Though there are some big USPSA 3 gun matches, but the other big ones are independant matches. WC3gun, Mystery Mountain, The Ironman, etc.

I kind of like the WC3gun method for rifle. You are either scoped or not scoped. And Major or Minor. Shotguns are scored as either pump or auto. I don't really agree with how they have their scope rules set up, as only scopes that are used by some miltary or law enforcement are used. My problem with that is military scopes usually cost a bunch more, and it not just anybody can afford an ACOG or an ELCAN.

I think that pretty much anything should go on your rifle as long as it is under a specified weight.

If you think about it, most military style rifles really are race guns anyway. Hi capacity is standard, lots of guns come from the factory compensated.

But then again, I just do it for fun as I never win anything anyway.

spd522 · August 7, 2002, 12:58 PM

I've shot a couple of 3gun IDPA matches the past two years at the ACPL club in Berryville.

The way they set it up was you competed in your pistol class. Rifles were allowed optics and comps but all spare ammo must come from a belt carrier or pocket.. Shotguns -no optics or comps but could have side saddles or other similar ammo carriers.

Targets were steel out to 150 yds and paper out to about 20yds for rifle. For Shotgun, 10-15 yd steel plates with birdshot and paper at 25yds with slugs was the setup. There were about 4 strings of rifle and about the same for shotgun. Pistol was normal IDPA stuff.

I think talk was the BOD for IDPA needed to do some study on what would be legal equipment and COF if IDPA was to get into actually sanctioning 3 gun matches. I look for it to happen in the future, especially with Bill Wilson marketing rifles and shotguns too.

The matches were fun and I did just fine up until the trigger pin in my AR walked out, making the trigger pull crooked and extremely heavy (20 lbs?). Cost me a bunch of time that I couldn't make up on the other stages.

Andrew Wyatt · August 9, 2002, 04:39 PM

we only allow scopes that we consider to be combat worthy. it just happens that the scopes we allow are also used by LE/military on their weapons.

We're also constantly expanding our list to encoumpass other scopes, and we do have a review process in place.

our scope policy is in place to help keep our match something that is good training for the real world , while helping to eliminate competetion for competetion's sake.

as for a national 3-gun governing body, i'd be up for creating one if you guys are.

twix · August 11, 2002, 05:24 PM

Mr. Wyatt, I am not sure who you are associated with. I feel it would be nice to have a centralized 3-gun set of rules. As realistic as possible, but with an "entry level" division (re:low cost to be competetive), perhaps call that "civilian class". Then a more "anything goes" class, ala IPSC which pushes the envelope of what works best, call it "professional". Two simple divisions, a starter level and a "spend what it takes" level. Best of both worlds, gets new shooters training and pushes the envelope for what works and what doesn't for the "pro shooters". You read it here first. I am available for consult.

Andrew Wyatt · August 12, 2002, 09:38 PM

I'm affiliated with the WC 3 gun match.

www.wc3gun.com

Why not use the WC 3 gun rules? They're pretty straightforward and simple and aren't nitpicky with equipment.

twix · August 12, 2002, 09:58 PM

OK. Those are pretty straight forward and real world. Had to chuckle over the "no brightly colored mag bases" rule. I can't really think of a reason not to standardize those rules. Thanks for the link.

Andrew Wyatt · August 14, 2002, 06:29 PM

no problem. as soon as i can sit down with my dad for awhile, I'll get some Cof's from pervious years put together and put up on my site, as well as plans for the targets we use.

August 2, 2002, 01:29 PM	#1
bullseyekp Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2000 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 118	3-gun production division????? This is kind of an off-shoot of Correia's thread...... Let me preface this by saying that I have never shot a 3-gun match. I'm pretty proficient in IDPA and joined USPSA a couple of weeks ago after shooting a match in July. Here's the question. Since USPSA (or should I say IPSC?) has gone to the trouble of creating a Production division for standard matches, why don't they create one for 3-gun. Is this due to the infancy of 3-gun in general or what? Pistol regs would follow the standard USPSA Production rules, shotguns would be limited to pumps without comps or optics and have a max capacity of say 8 rounds, and rifles couldn't wear comps or optics. What does everyone think? __________________ "The great German poet, Goethe, who also lived through a crisis of freedom, said to his generation: 'What you have inherited from your fathers, earn over again for yourselves or it will not be yours'. We inherited freedom. We seem unaware that freedom has to be remade and re-earned in each generation of man." --Adlai Stevenson, "Politics and Morality", Saturday Review, February 7, 1959.

August 2, 2002, 01:42 PM	#2
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	I think what we are seeing is that there isn't any national organization doing much of anything with 3 gun. Local clubs are developing their own rules for 3 gun, whether they be IDPA or IPSC. The big matches that have developed are all different as well. Though there are some big USPSA 3 gun matches, but the other big ones are independant matches. WC3gun, Mystery Mountain, The Ironman, etc. I kind of like the WC3gun method for rifle. You are either scoped or not scoped. And Major or Minor. Shotguns are scored as either pump or auto. I don't really agree with how they have their scope rules set up, as only scopes that are used by some miltary or law enforcement are used. My problem with that is military scopes usually cost a bunch more, and it not just anybody can afford an ACOG or an ELCAN. I think that pretty much anything should go on your rifle as long as it is under a specified weight. If you think about it, most military style rifles really are race guns anyway. Hi capacity is standard, lots of guns come from the factory compensated. But then again, I just do it for fun as I never win anything anyway.

August 7, 2002, 12:58 PM	#3
spd522 Member Join Date: April 19, 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 57	I've shot a couple of 3gun IDPA matches the past two years at the ACPL club in Berryville. The way they set it up was you competed in your pistol class. Rifles were allowed optics and comps but all spare ammo must come from a belt carrier or pocket.. Shotguns -no optics or comps but could have side saddles or other similar ammo carriers. Targets were steel out to 150 yds and paper out to about 20yds for rifle. For Shotgun, 10-15 yd steel plates with birdshot and paper at 25yds with slugs was the setup. There were about 4 strings of rifle and about the same for shotgun. Pistol was normal IDPA stuff. I think talk was the BOD for IDPA needed to do some study on what would be legal equipment and COF if IDPA was to get into actually sanctioning 3 gun matches. I look for it to happen in the future, especially with Bill Wilson marketing rifles and shotguns too. The matches were fun and I did just fine up until the trigger pin in my AR walked out, making the trigger pull crooked and extremely heavy (20 lbs?). Cost me a bunch of time that I couldn't make up on the other stages.

August 9, 2002, 04:39 PM	#4
Andrew Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, Kommiefornia Posts: 549	we only allow scopes that we consider to be combat worthy. it just happens that the scopes we allow are also used by LE/military on their weapons. We're also constantly expanding our list to encoumpass other scopes, and we do have a review process in place. our scope policy is in place to help keep our match something that is good training for the real world , while helping to eliminate competetion for competetion's sake. as for a national 3-gun governing body, i'd be up for creating one if you guys are.

August 11, 2002, 05:24 PM	#5
twix Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 76	Mr. Wyatt, I am not sure who you are associated with. I feel it would be nice to have a centralized 3-gun set of rules. As realistic as possible, but with an "entry level" division (re:low cost to be competetive), perhaps call that "civilian class". Then a more "anything goes" class, ala IPSC which pushes the envelope of what works best, call it "professional". Two simple divisions, a starter level and a "spend what it takes" level. Best of both worlds, gets new shooters training and pushes the envelope for what works and what doesn't for the "pro shooters". You read it here first. I am available for consult.

August 12, 2002, 09:38 PM	#6
Andrew Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, Kommiefornia Posts: 549	I'm affiliated with the WC 3 gun match. www.wc3gun.com Why not use the WC 3 gun rules? They're pretty straightforward and simple and aren't nitpicky with equipment.

August 12, 2002, 09:58 PM	#7
twix Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 76	OK. Those are pretty straight forward and real world. Had to chuckle over the "no brightly colored mag bases" rule. I can't really think of a reason not to standardize those rules. Thanks for the link.

August 14, 2002, 06:29 PM	#8
Andrew Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, Kommiefornia Posts: 549	no problem. as soon as i can sit down with my dad for awhile, I'll get some Cof's from pervious years put together and put up on my site, as well as plans for the targets we use.