Wet tumbling... green water... whats up with that ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

so I've been wet tumbling for a little over a year now, literally 5000 or more cases... normally my water is "dirty" colored... I'm in the process of prepping 500 newer Remington headstamp once fired cases in 223... & the water has been coming out green ( which I assume is copper ??? ) I'm using the same dish soap, & same amount ( I use citric acid instead of Lemishine ) that I have used from the start, these cases are bright & maybe more yellow than all the others I've done in the past... cases I've wet tumbled have ranged from 25 ACP, to 375 H&H, & I've never seen the green water, & I've done some pretty nasty looking cases...

anyone ever gotten green water from wet tumbling brass ???

the cases were reasonably clean prior to me tumbling, think it is the alloy Remington used ???

think they'll be more brittle, or more soft ??? ( they don't seem to be any different, with the little bit I've worked with them so far )

[schmellba99]

Hrmmm....I'd suggest backing off on the citric acid maybe?

Never had green water - I've had water that was almost black, but never green. Keep a close eye on the cases and see if there is any loss of life or earlier than normal signs of case failure.

[MarkCO]

Green water means you are oxidizing the copper and accelerating the dezincification process. Bad news for your brass.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

as I mentioned already, I've used the same measurements in my solution, since I started, & I've done lots of cases since I started wet tumbling, however, everything has for the most part been "older" cases ( most of my brass supply is 70's & 80's, both commercial, & military ) perhaps the alloy on "newer cases" is different ( reads cheaper to produce ) than the "vintage" stuff ???

also, since these cases were pretty clean to start with, maybe I'm just seeing the greener color, since there wasn't as much powder / primer fouling in them ???

but the last brass I processed, was LC-72 & LC-73 - 30 carbine brass which was already cob media tumbled, & ready to load, I just wet tumbled it, because it was easier to read the head stamps to sort... that water pretty much looked clean, with no green color, even though I used the same tumbling solution ???

[Nick_C_S]

Interesting timing of this post.

I was kind of caught up with my normal brass reconditioning so yesterday I decided to universal decap and then tumble some 40S&W/10mm range brass that had been building up. Some of it was very dirty; hence, the universal decap, then wet tumble. (My "normal" process is to tumble in corn cob, decap/resize, then wet tumble.).

I wet tumbled in two steps. The first step came out the usual charcoal black/gray. The water of the second tumble came out mostly charcoal colored, but with a distinctive green tinge.

I have them drying on an old towel now (old towels absorb the best). And they look normal - bright and shiny.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

NICK, I always use my universal decapper prior to wet tumbling, & size afterwards, I have gotten one scratched 357 die in the past, & am trying to avoid that if possible in the future, for all my others...

I'm wondering if with all the shortages, that they may have cheapened or changed the alloy used ???

these R-P cases are beautiful after wet tumbling, bright yellow / gold colored, my "vintage" cases are a deeper color, even with the same time & solution of tumbling ... but I can't help but wonder if the alloy is different somehow, than my "vintage" R-P cases... I may have to make a note on my reload label & cut back significantly on the citric for any future tumbling of these cases... with noting it on the load label, I can keep an eye on how it's holding up in the future...

[F. Guffey]

Many years ago cases were cleaned with acid, formula, method and technique is a reloading manuals, B&M for one.

In the beginning I had access to cases no one wanted to clean, I purchases them for .01 cent each, that was $14.00 worth of cases, I purchases linked 30/06 ammo on 3 belts as almost as much. Cleaning in a tumbler would have required days of tumbling so I used acid, 4% for a maximum of 15 minutes.

Not a problem but the acid turned green which meant I could no longer used the vinegar to turn cucumbers to pickles or add to my hot peppers.

So if you are using an acid expect green water. I caught hell, I was beginning to believe everyone on the forums was related to Jim Neighbors, I got a lot of " AWMMM, you are going to hell for that one", seems acid 'rurant' the cases.

Today? As they say "NO biggie", the procedure in the B&M book goes to 1955 and earlier. The percentage was reduced and the amount of time was reduced 'big time', as heavy as they were running the cases would not exist if left in the solution for 15 minutes, there would be nothing left except 'the green'.

F. Guffey

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Well... I put the last tumbler full of these cases in the tumbler over lunch, only put 1/2 as much citric, will see if the water is still green when it gets done ???

[jeager106]

If you please?
Someone(s) explain "wet tumbling" as I haven't known of this process before just reading about it here.
Advantages, mess?, etc.

[Unclenick]

And manufacturers used to pickle brass in, IIRC, 4% sulfuric acid. No problems.

Yes, green or blue happens. It is, however, mainly from oxides already on the brass surface that is only apparent as a faint darkening of the yellow. This is why a polished case produces less green: the surface oxide has been rubbed off and not had time to re-form. In any event, your blue indicates a quantity of brass no greater than that removed by polishing in a tumbler. Remember, brass manufacturers use citric acid solution to treat large pieces for long term storage because it passivates the surface. No harm will come from it.

Regarding alloy, yes, the Remington brass is low brass (80:20 copper:zinc, rather than the military type 70:30 cartridge brass), and that may make it more vulnerable to forming surface oxides.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

JEAGER... wet tumbling, in a rotary ( non vibratory ) tumbler, with some dish soap ( & traditionally Lemishine ) which is soap, antisurfactorants & mostly Citric Acid, using small stainless pins, is what I was referring to with the term "wet tumbling"

I've done corn cob, walnut shells, ultrasonic cleaning, & rotary wet tumbling with the stainless pins, can make the dirtiest of brass cases look like new, & has become my hands down favorite way of cleaning cases...

I have granular citric acid available from work, so I use that instead of buying the Lemishine

NICK... thanks for the comments... these cases looked pretty clean to start, which is why I was surprised at how green the water was...

what should I expect with the different alloy??? more deformation with equal pressures, increased case life/ less brittle... more brittle & decreased case life ???

I'd expect that military brass is more about stability, or pressure containment, than reloading life, but ???

EDIT: BTW... NICK, thanks for posting the link, it reaffirmed a lot of what I suspected about the alloys... it was a very good read

[F. Guffey]

Someone(s) explain "wet tumbling" as I haven't known of this process before just reading about it here.
Advantages, mess?, etc.
__________________

Jaeger106, Back when I was recovering the worst of cases I used 3 gallon jars, I did not tumble, I loaded the jars, soaked and then washed and rinsed and washed and rinsed and then dried, It helped to rinse in hot water, the residual heat left in the case helped the case to dry.

Cleaning the worst of cases in vinegar reduced cleaning to about 2 hours before tumbling, the cases were clean enough after cleaning in vinegar without (dry) tumbling.

Cleaning in vinegar reduced dry tumbling by at least two days.

In the old days they used boiling rinse water twice, after rinsing the cases turned black. Vinegar has never discolored cases to the point the cases turned color. In the old days the cleaning method used favored storing cases for long term storage.

F. Guffey

[jeager106]

Ah, yes, I get it now.
I'm old enough to remember the rock tumblers, ergo the term "tumbler" which isn't accurate for a vibratory cleaner. We all know what is meant by "tumble" so it's acceptable to us all.
The vibatory cleaner with fine ground walnut hulls is best in my opinion & far less messy than the old days when all we had was the rock tumbler tubs with liquid cleaners.
We used all kinds of things to clean brass including torn up rags in those old tumblers with dish soap & such.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

it's the combination of the stainless pins, & the tumblers, where the magic happens

[Magnum Wheel Man]

BTW... the last run through of this brass yesterday, I put 1/2 as much Citric in the solution, & still got green water albeit less green, but still green none the less ( might have only been less green, because there were about 1/5 - 1/6 less cases in the last batch )... I'll still put a note on my cartridge load box label, so I can keep an eye on case life... but hope everything is OK...

just caught me by surprise, how green the water was, when I had only witnessed muddy looking water previously

[schmellba99]

The vibatory cleaner with fine ground walnut hulls is best in my opinion & far less messy than the old days when all we had was the rock tumbler tubs with liquid cleaners.

I used to be in this camp. Until I tried out tumbling with SSTL pins. I haven't plugged in either of my vibratory tumblers in well over a year now.

Even the best vibratory tumbling cannot compare to what SSTL can do, and I'd much rather mess with a little bit of dirty water that is easily poured down the sink than the dust that is inevitably created with vibratory tumbling methods. And I get cleaner brass (primer pockets too) to boot. And SSTL can clean brass that vibratory tumbling wouldn't put a dent in either.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520125

[salvadore]

I wet tumbled my brass in a thumbler tumbler for years (30?), couldn't understand why everyone didn't so it. Coupla years ago I went to lizard poop stuff and Nu-Shine. Bought a Harbor Freight sonic cleaner, that and Lyman's brass cleaner cleans brass better than anything

[Unclenick]

Magnum Wheel Man,

The before and after pictures below are results from ultrasonic cleaning. (Note the cases are not lined up in the same order in both photos.) The before cases show oxide stains from having been in a flood and left in a plastic bag afterward for a couple of years. (Even so, the deepest corrosion pit proved only to be about 0.002".)

The after pictures show a pink tinge where the worst corrosion had been originally. That's because the zinc had oxidized deeper than the copper did, leaving pink copper at the surface. That pink copper layer is, however, extremely thin. A half an hour in a vibratory tumbler with treated media removed it, turning the case color back to yellow brass. The 5% citric acid + a little Dawn turned light blue during cleaning, but the fact that thin layer of copper was not dissolved down to the more resistant brass, suggests to me that the amount of copper in the solution could be no greater than is in the amount of brass you normally take off by tumbling.

As to the Remington alloy, I can't say whether it is more vulnerable to the acid at the surface or not. Usually zinc is more actively attacked than copper, so its a puzzle. Maybe it just developed a thicker oxide layer. In any event, I did want to pass along that the alloy actually is different, whatever the relevance of that turns out to be.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

thanks for the reply... I've also noted the pink, mostly in my ultra sonic cleaner, but also occasionally in my wet tumbling, when I don't run it as long...

funny, but I never use anywhere close to a 5% solution, when I wet tumble, & probably not quite there in my ultra sonic, but when I mentioned I was using granular citric quite a while ago... I got accused of "acid raping" my cases...

[F. Guffey]

funny, but I never use anywhere close to a 5% solution, when I wet tumble, & probably not quite there in my ultra sonic, but when I mentioned I was using granular citric quite a while ago... I got accused of "acid raping" my cases...

For the worst of cases I use straight vinegar, I use vinegar once for the life of the case, Cases that I have cleaned with vinegar were not corroded, they were brown with patina.

I got accused

It is a good thing I am not sensitive, cleaning cases with an acid was not to be done, and then? Acid became part of the norm with agitation with stainless pins, the pins had to be stainless because of the acid.

Time as a factor, 15 minutes is maximum for me when cleaning the worst of cases. I understand I could add water if I wanted to increase the time.

F. Guffey

[Magnum Wheel Man]

GUFF... don't know you from "Adam" but assume we're both a couple old duffers who like to play with this stuff...

BTW... anyone know what the acid concentration level is on household vinegar

for measuring my granular citric, I use a 1.5cc Lee dipper... one dipper to my lil Hornady ultrasonic ( maybe holds a quart... probably less ) & "normally" 2 dippers on my RCBS Sidewinder ( with maybe 1/2 gallon or so of water ) with the stainless pins... both ultra sonic, & rotary, I add a squirt of dish soap... I've never tried the specific ultrasonic cleaner solution, but I'm much more impressed with the rotary tumbling, with the stainless pins... though I do, normally use the ultrasonic for nickel plated cases, to prolong their plating ( I have several nickel 44 mag, & 357 mag cases that were tumbled for years with cob & walnut, & have much exposed brass... I'd expect the stainless pins will do the same some time down the road...

[Unclenick]

5% citric acid is a solution used by Frankford Arsenal up until the army began to forbid annealing stains to be removed. Sometime in the 1920's. The reaction seems to be self limiting, so the exact concentration isn't critical, though it can affect the speed with which it works a bit.

Distilled white vinegar is about 5% acetic acid, but comparing acid weight percentages does not tell you how acidic the solution is because the molecules don't have the same weight and different buffering properties. As Mr. Guffey mentioned, he got a brown patina from acetic acid. Using the old NRA vinegar and salt formula, I got not only brown, but also purples and greens (not verdis gris, but metal staining) over time. The reason is the acetic acid activates the surface of the brass for easier reaction with oxygen it is exposed to. The citric acid, on the other hand, leaves it relatively passivated, so the brass keeps its color in air.

[F. Guffey]

As Mr. Guffey mentioned, he got a brown patina from acetic acid. Using the old NRA vinegar and salt formula, I got not only brown, but also purples and greens (not verdis gris, but metal staining) over time. The

Not quite, I found a source of brass 'cheap'. no one wanted to clean the cases. I purchases one batch of 1,400 cases for .01 cent each, at $14.00 and 14 days of tumbling it was not a barging. I had the cases clean enough to load in 2 hours. I did sort and then tumble.

And I have never used the NRA formula, I have never found a need for improvement, I use vinegar and nothing, same for old tools. Again, I do not continually use vinegar, I only use vinegar on the worst of cases and I do not take short cuts when rinsing.

There is another vinegar called table vinegar, the acid content goes up to 16%.

F. Guffey